Timetable consultation for DART/commuter 2016 now online

[Dublin13]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

The 1654 from Connolly is almost never delayed by the Enterprise, it originates in Greystones and is frequently late departing from there. Like some other services originating in Greystones it is habitually late. This will probably be more of an issue with the 10 minute interval DART service as turn-around time in Greystones is reduced and the potential for congestion related delays greatly increased.

I have no idea what is delaying it, all I know is that my OH often says that the Enterprise at 16:50 often leaves Connolly a few minutes late, which backs up the 16:51 Commuter which has to wait for the enterprise to go out, which then in turn backs up the 16.54 DART. Normally the Commuter is going through Clontarf about 16:58 on the rare times I have seen it when I finished work early, when the DART is due so since it is only coming from Pearse, something is clearly holding it up.

Now I'm not saying that the DART hasn't already lost time by the time it gets to Connolly at Greystones, but it seems to lose a few minutes more because of the commuter ahead of it, which is clearly held up by something for a few minutes and with an Enterprise train 1 minute ahead of it, seems perfectly possible.

Likewise, if the Enterprise leaves bang on 16:50, the Commuter leaves bang on 16:51 the delay on that DART is normally a few minutes delay as opposed to nearly 10.

As for the 1758 Malahide service, it is obvious that the issue is that there is too much traffic for a four car train - either six or even eight cars need to be rostered. Given the DART fleet size and the amount of idle DART equipment this should not be an insurmountable issue to resolve. A lot of money and massive disruption was invested in lengthening platforms, moving signals and upgrading electrical equipment to facilitate 8 car DARTs and yet IR insist on running 4 car trains during the peak.

The most frustrating thing for me is that I can get on a train going to Malahide at 9pm an it has 8 cars with barely a soul on it. There is more capacity on the Malahide branch at weekends between 5pm to 7pm than there is during the week - all the trains are six cars!!!

[vegas82]

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-...ull_Report.pdf

pg 31/32 of this document is interesting and would be useful to see how it compares now. If we assume that all those travelling southbound do need to return (at some point), while malahide, portmarnck, and clongriffen are busy - so are bayside, sutton, and howth. If you look at people boarding darts the numbers are comparable 2677 vs. 2654. If you add in mainline trains the malahide portmarnck clongriffin numbers increase to 3,636 which is higher, but they also have the benefit of those trains.

I think what this shows is you cant demonise the howth passengers and say their service should be materially reduced and that the carriages are "empty" - but yes there should be more "sharing", particularly in terms of load for each train. I dont know why that cant be achieved at the very least - even if they dont add additional trains

[Dublin13]

Those stats mean absolutely nothing in this debate because they only factor people boarding and going from stations for the whole day and nobody I know is complaining about the service from those stations, rather the stations to it in the evening peak.

But if you want to use those stats, which I don't think are really relevant, the numbers are very close between passenger numbers for the two branches, but the timetable is nowhere near 50/50 on the DART.

There is over double the capacity on the DART going to Howth in terms of carriages in the second half of evening peak to Malahide but those stats show that the passenger numbers are around the same on those services.

So even if you want to use those less than useful figures, it still shows the current timetable is applying too much capacity to one branch and not enough to another.

[vegas82]

yes there does seem to be a bunching of trains around 6pm that goes to howth.

But if you look at the 4 - 8pm period and inlcude main lines there are 11 trains serving malahide vs. 12 serving howth...but obviously not all stop at clontarf, and as you say carriage numbers are lacking.

if they could simply increase the carriage that would at least go some way to making peoples lives easier!

[Dublin13]

Originally Posted by vegas82

yes there does seem to be a bunching of trains around 6pm that goes to howth.

But if you look at the 4 - 8pm period and inlcude main lines there are 11 trains serving malahide vs. 12 serving howth...but obviously not all stop at clontarf, and as you say carriage numbers are lacking.

Which itself puts pressure on the 17:58 and the 18:46 the two that actually do stop at Clontarf when they are 4 cars, which people in Clontarf are not always able to board - hence the frustration, so little trains and the ones that do arrive are full.

Changing trains is an option but then the journey times become so uncompetitive with the car in the evening that it's not worth using public transport at all.

if they could simply increase the carriage that would at least go some way to making peoples lives easier!

Of those three Howths in quick succession, one is 4 car, the other varies between 4 and 6 car from Dun Lagohaire but more often 4, and the other is 6 car. With three trains in 20 minutes and one of them not even a full run, there has to be scope to spare 2 cars.

[vegas82]

I agree.

[James Shields]

Something worth mentioning is that after 2009, commuter numbers fell significantly, so there was some justification in reducing capacity. However over the last couple of years, employment has risen and commuter numbers with it. I don't know if there are any figures, but it certainly seems like commuter numbers are close to previous peaks.

Isn't it time to restore capacity accordingly?

James

[Inniskeen]

1600 from Greystones running well this evening, only 3 minutes late south of Pearse. Further delayed at Pearse due to late running 1644 to Drogheda which left Pearse at 1651. With no DART to obstruct progress the Drogheda train was on time arriving at Howth Junction.

The Belfast train didn't delay anything but was delayed by the preceding Howth train which was running about 6 minutes late.

[Dublin13]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

1600 from Greystones running well this evening, only 3 minutes late south of Pearse. Further delayed at Pearse due to late running 1644 to Drogheda which left Pearse at 1651. With no DART to obstruct progress the Drogheda train was on time arriving at Howth Junction.

The Belfast train didn't delay anything but was delayed by the preceding Howth train which was running about 6 minutes late.

The Belfast train, which was due at 16:50, was late but not late enough to delay the 16:51. So you're talking about a delay of less than 60 seconds? It only delayed nothing because the other trains were running late.

Strangely enough, when the Howth runs on time, the Enterprise runs on time, the commuter runs on time, and the Dart is only 2-3 minutes late, but when one is delayed, they are all delayed by a few minutes here and there so it's a chain of delays.

From what I have seen, if the Howth runs late, it prevents the commuter train from departing on-time The Enterprise then gets delayed by a small amount of minutes, by the Howth and the commuter train also running late, then holds up the Malahide DART.

What it does show is that the infrastructure is general completely inadequate for the mix of services that it runs and having 3 trains leave Connolly northbound in 4 minutes is clearly not going to be smooth running, that is before you even take into account what happens if the Howth runs late and makes it 4 trains in 7 minutes like today all on the same tracks.

[Inniskeen]

Got it in one - the infrastructure is inadequate to support the existing service let alone a near 50% increase in DART frequency !

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Shields

Something worth mentioning is that after 2009, commuter numbers fell significantly, so there was some justification in reducing capacity. However over the last couple of years, employment has risen and commuter numbers with it. I don't know if there are any figures, but it certainly seems like commuter numbers are close to previous peaks.

Isn't it time to restore capacity accordingly?

James

Well perhaps you can ask the NTA and government to restore the PSO subsidy to pay for that?

That's part of the problem here.

[James Howard]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

Got it in one - the infrastructure is inadequate to support the existing service let alone a near 50% increase in DART frequency !

This is the nub of the issue. If Irish Rail can't keep the timetable they've got at the moment, how the hell are they going to manage when they are putting significantly more trains down the line.

Capacity can be added without affecting reliability by simply redirecting the extra cars that would be added to the more frequent service towards longer trains. Everyone gets a better service and everyone is happy. The extra frequency is largely irrelevant anyway since most of the time savings offered will be lost by longer running times. At best most people will see end-to-end improvements of a minute or 2 while a whole load of other people will see end-to-end journey time increases of 10 minutes or more.

Plus when the inevitable autumn delays (which still haven't ended this year) roll in, the whole thing will utterly fall to pieces. It would make a lot more sense to see how the signalling upgrades settle in for a few months, recast to accommodate the PPT services, leave that a few months and then introduce more changes.

[Inniskeen]

That would be a better use of NTA funds than the unwarranted and impractical 10 minute interval off-peak DART proposal. Extra capacity at the peak period is the primary issue for DART users and only requires activation of idle and relatively new/recently refurbished rolling stock.

[Dublin13]

Personally this is what I'd like.

Essential
- 2 Extra cars on the 17:58
- 2 Extra cars on the 18:46

Important
- An earlier Malahide Dart Monday to Friday (in the draft timetable)
- An overhaul of the weekend timetables to remove long gaps in service (in the draft timetable)

Nice to have:
- Better Sunday service
- Something between the 17:58 and 18:46 DART

I couldn't care less about the 10 minute frequency.

[Thomas J Stamp]

yes, well, i think IE have woken up to the fact that the proposed timetable is fantasy island stuff. (and it wasnt even the proper timetable as it made no mention of just where the PPT trains were going to fit in)

the reality is that but for the ability to carry out regular maintenance on all available DART carriages this issue with the Malahide service wouldn't exist, and that is down to the PSO.

It's officially election time so we'll be reopening the election forum. One thing I remember from 2011/2012 was it was Gov policy to drastically reduce - with the aim to eliminate - the PSO. This was generated from a certain degree of massive Dail Majority surplus hubris as it was their view that they would be in power for two if not more dail terms. The mid-term local elections put a stop to that gallop and although the PSO is at barely manageble levels the old policy of Leo was reversed when Paschal Donoghue got into the hot seat.

But we have seen ministers of all hues come and go in our time, yet railways remain the "problem child" of transport and government policy. Just enough to keep it going, to allow a minister to cut a ribbon every so often, and blame IE and the NTA if there is a strike.

Income from the fares box cannot run the railways, thats been proven - even with the incentive of Taxsaver we are hearing of people giving up and using the car or the bus.

The solution isnt the golden dawn of "increased effeciances" either because they're just not going to happen at the pace which is needed, and so we are back to the PSO, which is a decision of Government and there is an election underway. Therein lies the solutiuon.

[Jamie2k9]

IE have loaded existing schedules up to 3 September, so would appear no timetable before 4 September.

[Mark Gleeson]

Not taking bookings after April 11th so no change

[Jamie2k9]

Indeed, except Belfast.

Still hard to see them going ahead as it will just mean a strike.

[Jamie2k9]

Confirmed not going ahead but some DART services will see increased capacity at peak times.

[ThomasJ]

http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0330/778247-dart-irish-rail/