[Articles] DART Underground

[ColmmacO]

I am usually very sceptical about local residents groups who commission consultants. Usually the consultant will be given a brief to find an alternate site and then come up with reasons why the alternate site is better than the proposed site, rather than taking the logical approach and investigating whether the proposed site is suitable. So usually from the outset their report will be biased in favour of the residents group. I have also never come accross a consultants report commissioned by such a group that hasnt found in favour of the residents.

My opinion would be that if Irish Rail have actually consulted properly with the locals, and have given assurances to perform all reasonable distruption and noise abatment procedures,and have adhered to all european and national environmental directives then they should be cleared to go ahead with the plan.
This project will make a huge difference to hundreds of thousands of people all over dublin, and should not be held up unduely by a small minority.
I would also hope the residents of the estate appreciate the irony of objecting to a rail infrastructure development given the name of the estate they live in.

[ccos]

I like the hole the size of a football pitch reference, did anybody think that a tunnel entrance would require a hole the size of a monopoly board?

[Colm Moore]

This hole is the launch pit for the tunnel boring machine(s) which is likely to be in the actual (CIÉ?) sports ground. The actual tunnel portal will be further into the site.

[Oisin88]

People, be reasonable and see the big picture here please.

Originally Posted by ColmmacO

I am usually very sceptical about local residents groups who commission consultants. Usually the consultant will be given a brief to find an alternate site and then come up with reasons why the alternate site is better than the proposed site, rather than taking the logical approach and investigating whether the proposed site is suitable. So usually from the outset their report will be biased in favour of the residents group. I have also never come accross a consultants report commissioned by such a group that hasnt found in favour of the residents.

Read the facts first.

The report is available on www.iot.ie so you can judge for yourself. In this case the report looked at the Irish Rail plans first, and as I recall spent alot of time on them. Remember also that the original engineers were probably told "we want it to go from here to here" and had to work with that. It also looks like they didn't bother to bring in the population centres along the way (see http://www.inchicoreDARTstation.com)

Originally Posted by ColmmacO

My opinion would be that if Irish Rail have actually consulted properly with the locals, and have given assurances to perform all reasonable distruption and noise abatment procedures,and have adhered to all european and national environmental directives then they should be cleared to go ahead with the plan.

(1) Considering CIÉ/Irish Rail don't have a track record with consulting with anyone except their property developer and FF hack loaded board, do you think that it is likely that they consulted properly with any residents along the route?
(2) CIÉ/IR Failed to comply with the Aarhus Convention, which is a European directive which it has taken Ireland 10 years to implement (not quite there)
(3)Assurances from CIÉ are not worth the paper they are printed on, and you as a passenger should know that.
(4) It is way more than noise abatement etc. Consider that you lived in a small terraced house with no front garden and a small road in front of you, and then a soccer pitch. Now consider a gantry big enough for a Tunnel Boring Machine big enough for 2 railway sized tunnels, all the spoil for 3.5 Km coming out, and all this operating on a 24 hour basis for 5 years? And all this when there is a 72 acre site a few hundred metres away, largely empty and an even larger industrial site to the west of that with multiply vacant units.

Originally Posted by ColmmacO

This project will make a huge difference to hundreds of thousands of people all over dublin, and should not be held up unduely by a small minority.

If the project is delayed it will be completely Irish Rails fault for not looking adequately at the alternatives. There is no plausible reason why the tunnel boring machine launch pit should have been put in the pond field and not further west in the works estate. If the job is going to be done at all:
(1) It should be done properly
(2) All stakeholders must be consulted fully (not just informed by glossy brochures and spin)

[Colm Moore]

In fairness, it is all ready a heavy industrial site that operates 24 hours a day.

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail made a mess of the consultation, the plans appeared first in the Sunday papers

It appears feasible for the portal of the tunnel/cut and cover section to be within the CIE site subject to the levels being correct. It works for everyone and makes life simpler for everyone.

Thats the solution we proposed to Irish Rail

[Oisin88]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

In fairness, it is all ready a heavy industrial site that operates 24 hours a day.

The pond field? More a soccer pitch that is used once or twice a week!

The "heavily" industrialised area is about 240m to the west, inside the actual works. Most of what is to the east of the engine shed seems to be offices. Besides, how much heavy (noisy) industrial work takes place in Inchicore now?

[Colm Moore]

Trains running by and locos starting, shunting, etc. doesn't make noise?

[Oisin88]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

Trains running by and locos starting, shunting, etc. doesn't make noise?

The noise caused by the normal running of the trains /shunting along the 3 tracks from Inchicore to Heuston would be nothing compared to the noise caused by tunnel boring, removal of 3.5km worth of soil, 24 hour construction noise, not to mention floodlighting, reversing lorries etc. Look on google maps at where west terrace is compared with (1) the launch pit and (2) the mainline, and see why people there might be worried.

[ColmmacO]

Originally Posted by Oisin88

People, be reasonable and see the big picture here please.



Read the facts first.

The report is available on www.iot.ie so you can judge for yourself. In this case the report looked at the Irish Rail plans first, and as I recall spent alot of time on them. Remember also that the original engineers were probably told "we want it to go from here to here" and had to work with that. It also looks like they didn't bother to bring in the population centres along the way (see http://www.inchicoreDARTstation.com)


(1) Considering CIÉ/Irish Rail don't have a track record with consulting with anyone except their property developer and FF hack loaded board, do you think that it is likely that they consulted properly with any residents along the route?
(2) CIÉ/IR Failed to comply with the Aarhus Convention, which is a European directive which it has taken Ireland 10 years to implement (not quite there)
(3)Assurances from CIÉ are not worth the paper they are printed on, and you as a passenger should know that.
(4) It is way more than noise abatement etc. Consider that you lived in a small terraced house with no front garden and a small road in front of you, and then a soccer pitch. Now consider a gantry big enough for a Tunnel Boring Machine big enough for 2 railway sized tunnels, all the spoil for 3.5 Km coming out, and all this operating on a 24 hour basis for 5 years? And all this when there is a 72 acre site a few hundred metres away, largely empty and an even larger industrial site to the west of that with multiply vacant units.



If the project is delayed it will be completely Irish Rails fault for not looking adequately at the alternatives. There is no plausible reason why the tunnel boring machine launch pit should have been put in the pond field and not further west in the works estate. If the job is going to be done at all:
(1) It should be done properly
(2) All stakeholders must be consulted fully (not just informed by glossy brochures and spin)

Oisin,

You dont happen to live in the area affected by the plans by any chance do you?
The amount of emotion in your post would indicate that either you do, or you have some bone to pick with IE or the present government.
If either of the above are true, I really cant see how you can post on this subject with any objectivity.

I can see the bigger picture very clearly.
The big picture is that a relatively small group of people are threatening to hold up a piece of infrastructure that will benefit a far larger group.
This is a problem that is endemic in irish society today.

I would implore you to reread my post, particularily the part of it that says if IE do things properly.

Also what evidence have you for your statement below?
"Remember also that the original engineers were probably told "we want it to go from here to here" and had to work with that"

Are you an engineer, or have you got any experience of large infrastructure projects? What is your interest in the interconnector?

[Colm Moore]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...266296888.html

Dart underground application delayed
OLIVIA KELLY

IARNRÓD ÉIREANN has had to delay its application to construct the Dart underground following discussions with An Bord Pleanála.

The company had been due to apply for a railway order for the project by the end of this month. However, due to “issues” raised by An Bord Pleanála in pre-planning meetings, it has had to look at its plans again; it now hopes to submit an application by the end of June.

A company spokesman said he could not give details of the issues raised by the planning board, but that they related to the detailed design and alignment of the route.

Opposition to the plans from residents in Inchicore, where the line will terminate, was “not one of the issues raised” by An Bord Pleanála and was not the reason for the delay, he added.

The 7.6km underground line, due to open in 2015, will link Heuston station to the Dart line for the first time, with underground stations at Spencer Dock, Pearse Street, St Stephen’s Green, Christchurch, Heuston and with a ground-level station at Inchicore.

However, some residents in Inchicore are opposing the development, claiming that tunnel-boring and station construction in such a densely populated area would make life unbearable.

A recently published report by London-based tunnelling consultants OTB Engineering, commissioned by residents group Inchicore on Track, recommended relocating the construction works a few hundred metres to an Iarnród Éireann works site.

The Dart underground project will involve splitting the current Dart line which runs north-south along the coast and creating a new interchange at Pearse Street. Once built, passengers travelling from the north side will no longer have direct access to Connolly or Tara Street stations. Their Dart will run as normal to Clontarf Road, but will then enter a tunnel at East Wall and continue to Inchicore.

Southside passengers will still have access to Pearse, Tara Street and Connolly.

However, after passing through Connolly, their train will turn west out to Maynooth, Co Kildare. To head north, they will have to change at Pearse.

[Oisin88]

Originally Posted by ColmmacO

Oisin,

You dont happen to live in the area affected by the plans by any chance do you?
The amount of emotion in your post would indicate that either you do, or you have some bone to pick with IE or the present government.

I don't live in the area, I live on the quays. I have no bone to pick with Irish Rail, except the bone that has developed from their shortcomings experienced by a daily traveller for the last 8 years. I have no bone to pick with the current government (on public transport policy) and am in fact a fully paid up member of the junior partner. I do, however, sympathise with the residents, and have joined their campaign. They are attempting to ensure that the process is consultative, despite Irish Rails unilateral approach to things.

Originally Posted by ColmmacO

If either of the above are true, I really cant see how you can post on this subject with any objectivity.

If either of the above were true, would there be any reason why I couldn't?

Originally Posted by ColmmacO

I can see the bigger picture very clearly.
The big picture is that a relatively small group of people are threatening to hold up a piece of infrastructure that will benefit a far larger group.
This is a problem that is endemic in irish society today

Really? And the evidence for this statement is available where? And are IOT delaying this or is the fact that the project team had to hurriedly move the tunnel portal to Inchicore delaying the project? I would challenge you to provide any evidence of delay by residents to the project up to this point.

Originally Posted by ColmmacO

I would implore you to reread my post, particularily the part of it that says if IE do things properly.

Read again, and I agree, with the emphasis on the word "properly" but having been a member on here for a few years, I have seen precious little evidence of them doing things properly, and plenty about where they have got it wrong. In fact you even discuss it, in a way, in your own post here

Originally Posted by ColmmacO

Also what evidence have you for your statement below?
"Remember also that the original engineers were probably told "we want it to go from here to here" and had to work with that"

Note the use of the word "probably" here. Reading your post, I note that you also made assumptions about the OTB report. Am I not entitled to make similar assumptions about the IÉ commissioned work? I have experience of seeing work done by other consultants and how they are commissioned.

Are you an engineer, or have you got any experience of large infrastructure projects? What is your interest in the interconnector?

No, I am not an engineer, but I wasn't aware that a degree in engineering was the only license to have an opinion or to have knowledge about infrastructural projects. I have a number of siblings that are engineers. I note you are one of the blessed ones, however, you could be a chemical engineer (or even a fuel injection engineer)

My emotion was mainly piqued by your predictable broadside against the 700 residents in the works estate (and many more around the area) legitimate concerns with a hastily thrown together plan by a monolithic state organisation. I want to see the interconnector delivered, more than most people. I can't wait to see it and will use the train alot when it comes. But it has to be done properly, not shoddily, and that means probably putting the portal in the place where it has the least impact on residents. Looking at the plans, that probably means a few hundred yards west of where currently planned, in the middle of a largely abandoned railway works (much of the work has been moved out of here) as stated in the OTB report. In any event, due to the nature of the rock interfaces underneath, this option might even be cheaper.

In fact, I also think that the location of a station in the works is also not optimal. Something closer to either Ballyfermot Village or to Inchicore Village would have better patronage, and would allow for better linkage with other modes such as buses etc. But that's another story.

Oh, and I had granola (non-organic) from the Dublin food co-op, a banana, and a latte for breakfast. Now are you happy?

[ColmmacO]

Originally Posted by Oisin88

I don't live in the area, I live on the quays. I have no bone to pick with Irish Rail, except the bone that has developed from their shortcomings experienced by a daily traveller for the last 8 years. I have no bone to pick with the current government (on public transport policy) and am in fact a fully paid up member of the junior partner. I do, however, sympathise with the residents, and have joined their campaign. They are attempting to ensure that the process is consultative, despite Irish Rails unilateral approach to things.



If either of the above were true, would there be any reason why I couldn't?



Really? And the evidence for this statement is available where? And are IOT delaying this or is the fact that the project team had to hurriedly move the tunnel portal to Inchicore delaying the project? I would challenge you to provide any evidence of delay by residents to the project up to this point.


Read again, and I agree, with the emphasis on the word "properly" but having been a member on here for a few years, I have seen precious little evidence of them doing things properly, and plenty about where they have got it wrong. In fact you even discuss it, in a way, in your own post here


Note the use of the word "probably" here. Reading your post, I note that you also made assumptions about the OTB report. Am I not entitled to make similar assumptions about the IÉ commissioned work? I have experience of seeing work done by other consultants and how they are commissioned.

No, I am not an engineer, but I wasn't aware that a degree in engineering was the only license to have an opinion or to have knowledge about infrastructural projects. I have a number of siblings that are engineers. I note you are one of the blessed ones, however, you could be a chemical engineer (or even a fuel injection engineer)

My emotion was mainly piqued by your predictable broadside against the 700 residents in the works estate (and many more around the area) legitimate concerns with a hastily thrown together plan by a monolithic state organisation. I want to see the interconnector delivered, more than most people. I can't wait to see it and will use the train alot when it comes. But it has to be done properly, not shoddily, and that means probably putting the portal in the place where it has the least impact on residents. Looking at the plans, that probably means a few hundred yards west of where currently planned, in the middle of a largely abandoned railway works (much of the work has been moved out of here) as stated in the OTB report. In any event, due to the nature of the rock interfaces underneath, this option might even be cheaper.

In fact, I also think that the location of a station in the works is also not optimal. Something closer to either Ballyfermot Village or to Inchicore Village would have better patronage, and would allow for better linkage with other modes such as buses etc. But that's another story.

Oh, and I had granola (non-organic) from the Dublin food co-op, a banana, and a latte for breakfast. Now are you happy?

************************************************
Oisin,

The second post on this thread (pre merging) asked for posters opinions on the project. I gave mine. Clearly yours is different to mine. I would ask you to respect my opinion and agree to differ rather than childishly attacking it (and me).

With respect to the part of your response highlighted in bold above, My experience of such reports prepared by consultants is such that the reports always always come out in favour of the commissioners i.e. Those who pay for the report. In the past most consultants worth their salt wouldnt touch such a residents group with a ten foot barge pole mainly because doing so would tarnish their reputation. My experience is such that, the views of such consultants reports can and have been warped and misquoted by the residents group to fit their own messages and aims. Maybe it is a sign of the recessionary times that consultancies are happy to take on this work.

I would appreciate a mature and reasoned debate on this Oisin but until you can grow up and post without sarcasm I dont think that will happen.

[Thomas Ralph]

Hi folks, just a reminder to all parties involved that it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. Full debate is encouraged, but some recent posts have been straying from that.

[ColmmacO]

Interesting if perhaps slightly off topic article in todays times on the PR / consultation process behind major infrastructure projects.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...266807354.html
It would probably be a bit difficult to make a work of art out of dart underground, but nonetheless it shows what can be done to make a controversial infrastructure project a success.
Shows the need for give and take on both sides.

[Thomas J Stamp]

stop the "grow up" and "childish" references please, ta.

[ColmmacO]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

stop the "grow up" and "childish" references please, ta.

And are you going to ask Oisin to quit the sarcastic messages directed at me?
Or is there one rule for him and another for me?

[Colm Moore]

Thomas and I have both ask the two of you to stop.

[Mark Hennessy]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0505/dart.html

Delayed until 2018 now...

I guess giving 1.3bn to Greece this week and zillions to Anglo etc was never going to expedite the process

[ThomasJ]

does this mean electrification is on hold too?