Will Navan Man deliver?

[Derek Wheeler]

The biggest misnomer with rail travel is the belief that everyone wants to commute to the city centre.

What are the plans to connect navan rail with any other transport mode in Dublin west? Where will the very sad project that is Metro west connect?

For example, I know people in Navan that work in Sandyford. How will T21 rail projects work for them in line with a competitive public transport journey time over 40 miles?

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

For example, I know people in Navan that work in Sandyford. How will T21 rail projects work for them in line with a competitive public transport journey time over 40 miles?

In fairness, I would recommend that person either moves house or moves job because that is a desperate distance to commute for a living. Navan (MCC)needs to provide more opportunities for people to work in and around Navan as well as transport links.

[willow]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

What are the plans to connect navan rail with any other transport mode in Dublin west? Where will the very sad project that is Metro west connect?

I doubt metro west will go ahead. It's just too stupid. I can't see the RPA going ahead with it when it's clear it will have no passengers, unless they make a tram that can carry cars.

For example, I know people in Navan that work in Sandyford. How will T21 rail projects work for them in line with a competitive public transport journey time over 40 miles?

um, I think the idea is to change at liffey junction. So it might take 45 minutes to Liffey junction and then 20 minutes to Stephen's Green and then 22 minutes to Sandyford plus allow a few minutes to change train - so an hour and a half all in.

Compare that to driving. M3 + upgraded M50 from Navan to Sandyford should be do-able in 90 minutes @25mph. thing about the train is that you need to get to the station first, presumably you drive to the p&r from your 7bedroom McMansion in a field outside Navan where you have been enjoying the good life miles away from any other human lifeform.

Mark Gleeson has shown that commuting by car from Navan would cost about 7 quid more per day than taking the train. But put yourself in the mind of Navan man in 2012, in his car, pulling out of his gravel driveway. Thanks to Dempsey and MoT, he's now got a choice:
either
drive to the P&R wait for train, fretting it doesn't show, stand on steamy train for 45 minutes, feeling ill, get off at windswept station, wait for Luas, endure journey through town just above walking pace, arrive in Sandyford station, 10 minutes walk through rain to office.
or
turn on radio and climate control, light cigarette, lie back in leather seat and just keep driving down the newly-built, billion-euro M3, get on to the M50 using the new billion euro junction and extra lanes, arrive in Sandyford where most companies provide parking for free to employees. get out of car, get in lift.

OK, so the second option costs more but the only immediately visible cost to the motorist are the tolls and he probably has eazypass. And if you're a Navan commuter you'll have got used to the idea of paying a fortune in petrol bills.

Would P&R be free in Navan? If not it will be like a toll to use the train.

There is no BIK on parking and there never will be.

This is why I disagree with building the M3 and upgrading the M50. People will only use a train if driving is really ****e.

[markpb]

Spot on Willow, you've hit the nail on the head there. It's unfortunate but that's the way most people think.

Originally Posted by Mark

In fairness, I would recommend that person either moves house or moves job because that is a desperate distance to commute for a living.

I know NJ is going to hit me for saying this but maybe there's a good argument for not supplying a (commuter) train line to Navan or any other outlying areas and spend the money building up a proper network of rail inside Dublin. We could spend the next 30 years playing catch-up and facilitating people who have or will decide to live outside Dublin and end up bringing them all to the city centre instead of building up a network inside the city and bringing people where they want to go.

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by willow

from your 7bedroom McMansion in a field outside Navan where you have been enjoying the good life miles away from any other human lifeform..... pulling out of his gravel driveway.

You talking about Navan or Cavan here? Obviously Navan's recent achievement of being rated Ireland's second dirtiest town has not destroyed the utopian image of the town built up so carefully by estate agents over the past decade

Originally Posted by markpb

maybe there's a good argument for not supplying a (commuter) train line to Navan or any other outlying areas and spend the money building up a proper network of rail inside Dublin. We could spend the next 30 years playing catch-up and facilitating people who have or will decide to live outside Dublin and end up bringing them all to the city centre instead of building up a network inside the city and bringing people where they want to go.

It's a fair point. However, traffic moves fairly well within the M50 limits, and the main traffic problems seen in Dublin are on the approaches to the M50 from outside the M50.

In my mind, getting rail to work in Dublin is most important where it can relieve congestion on the M50 approaches.

Ironically, finding a rail solution that would relieve the M50 approaches would also have an effect within the M50 limits as well.

I know what you are saying about towns like Navan - the planning has been atrocious. Many of the houses here could have been built quite easily near Swords, Clondalkin, etc.

But because an influx of people funds a local economy, developments like Navan/Trim/Kells/Ashbourne/Rathoath are tolerated. Politics.

BTW, the image of gravel driveways is way off - most of the houses in Navan are 3 bed semi's, not unlike those you'd find in D15, Tallaght, Clondalkin etc. Just visit Johnstown, aka 'Little Dublin'.

Navan never really did ranches (Cavan yes, Meath no) and any generousity in house/garden size disappeared in houses built post 2000.

You have to examine the logic of the sprawling commuter belts all over the country, but you also have to realise that they are there not out of lack of planning, or foresight. They are being built as a result of a passive permissive encouragement on the part of the government, to develope local economies using eager house hunters as cash-cows to fund it

I'm a bit tired, and maybe what I've typed is rubbish but I think I've half explained my thinking... I reserve the right to edit/rewrite etc tomorrow..!

Oh, and in relation to the junctions on the M50 I think they do need to be upgraded. The N3 one will be semi-freeflow btw

And there is BIK on park afaik - if your employer rather than your good self pays it.

Anyway, there is more than a fair possability that Mr Wheeler may never be forced to expose his musical instruments in Drumree so don't worry about it too much

[Derek Wheeler]

NJ answered the points that needed answering in relation to some of the stupid comments made above and he did it in a far more polite way than I would have, if I had got there first.

Willows T21 based journey from Navan to Sandyford via public transport utopia only highlights even further that our supposed transport planners think routing everything through the city centre is the way to go.

But I will continue to insist that my "musical bits" will be viewable by December 2015. In fact I may do it by 2010, as by then, I don't believe any solid work will have commenced on the Navan line.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

The biggest misnomer with rail travel is the belief that everyone wants to commute to the city centre.

However, an awful lots of people still do.

Of course few people realise that the Naas Road inside the M50 is the second largest destination.

[Mark Gleeson]

1. Dublin City as in draw a 2km diameter circle from College Green
2. Airport and its surrounds
3. Tallaght/Clondalkin/Liffey Valley/Blanchardstown bascially the worst bit of the M50

Its not impossible but not a sensible commute to undertake

Navan - Liffey Junc, train
Liffey Junc - Sandyford, luas

Navan - Drumcondra, train
Drumcondra - St Stephens Green, Metro
St Stephens Green - Sandyford, Luas

Navan - Connolly/Pearse/Grand Canal Dock, train
Connolly/Pearse/Grand Canal Dock, Blackrock, DART
Blackrock Sandyford, bus

[Prof_Vanderjuice]

Given Metro West and the proposed Tallaght-Sandyford bus service, the following would also be possible:

Navan - Porterstown, train
Porterstown - Tallaght, Metro West
Tallaght - Sandyford, bus

However, I'm not sure how the timings would stack up.

[James Shields]

Well in my experience on the London Underground is that the quickest way is almost always the one that requires the least number of changes. I've tried taking shortcuts, but the extra transfers almost always eat up any time you save on a quicker route.

There are exceptions, of course - you don't want to go all the way around the Circle line, and whatever you do, don't try getting from central London to Uxbridge on the Picadilly line.

[ofjames]

Originally posted by Derek Wheeler

The biggest misnomer with rail travel is the belief that everyone wants to commute to the city centre.

What are the plans to connect navan rail with any other transport mode in Dublin west? Where will the very sad project that is Metro west connect?

So if i understand you correctly Derek, you are advocating for the construction of rail lines that do not run through the city centre, yet you are seemingly opposed to the only orbital rail route (Metro West) that is planned.

CONTRADICTION???!!

[markpb]

Originally Posted by ofjames

So if i understand you correctly Derek, you are advocating for the construction of rail lines that do not run through the city centre, yet you are seemingly opposed to the only orbital rail route (Metro West) that is planned.

CONTRADICTION???!!

I assume Derek would like the Navan line to connect with a well-planned, well-executed orbital line instead of a half-luas, half-camel light-rail line that will meander round west dublin at slower than slow speeds and avoiding at least one major trip generator?

[Thomas J Stamp]

No contradiction at all as far as I can see.

Derek is pointing out that the existing plans are a half-arsed metro which does not connect the biggest footfall generators in west Dublin (the three big shopping centres and associated retail parks) and which itself does not connect efficiently with the Navan Rail line.

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by ofjames

So if i understand you correctly Derek, you are advocating for the construction of rail lines that do not run through the city centre, yet you are seemingly opposed to the only orbital rail route (Metro West) that is planned.

CONTRADICTION???!!

You must be new around here, because, simply picking out one post like that and adding "contradiction" in caps suggests you are.

So, get this straight. I am not opposed to an orbital rail line/metro in Dublin and never have been. In fact, if you'd taken time to read my contributions here, before diving in, you would quickly learn that, I am one of the few that promotes cross radial rail solutions in Dublin, due to the huge traffic problems on many cross radial road routes, such as the M50, Kylemore road etc etc. Problems largely ignored by T21 and the DTA.

However cross radial rail solutions in Dublin must serve the major foot fall areas and integrate with existing rail and planned rail. Metro West and the details we have so far, fail to address this in the best possible manner. Firstly, it is not a metro. It's a slightly higher spec Luas. Secondly, if done in a proper manner, it would be built entirely underground and run through both The Square, Liffey Valley and Blanch town centre. In fact, if it actually was a proper metro it could run in an "S" like fashion serving Ballymount, Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley and Blanch, (thats just a teaser) before it connects with Metro North.

Bottom line. Its a cheapo project that integrates with damn all and is driven purely and simply by developers interests. (which is part of the RPA's remit) West Dublin was ignored, in fact abandoned many years ago by transport planners. Thats why celtic tiger Ireland gave it the car and best of luck to them. They had no choice. Now its offered the shambles that is Metro West and it will mean toss all difference to those who's lives were dictated by constant ambivilance to Public Transport in west Dublin. Pretty much the same as the ambivilance displayed towards social services, education, health etc etc in the same region over the years.

[clonsilladart]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Metro West and the details we have so far, fail to address this in the best possible manner. Firstly, it is not a metro. It's a slightly higher spec Luas. Secondly, if done in a proper manner, it would be built entirely underground and run through both The Square, Liffey Valley and Blanch town centre. In fact, if it actually was a proper metro it could run in an "S" like fashion serving Ballymount, Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley and Blanch, (thats just a teaser) before it connects with Metro North.

Bottom line. Its a cheapo project that integrates with damn all and is driven purely and simply by developers interests. (which is part of the RPA's remit) West Dublin was ignored, in fact abandoned many years ago by transport planners. Thats why celtic tiger Ireland gave it the car and best of luck to them. They had no choice. Now its offered the shambles that is Metro West and it will mean toss all difference to those who's lives were dictated by constant ambivilance to Public Transport in west Dublin. Pretty much the same as the ambivilance displayed towards social services, education, health etc etc in the same region over the years.

Couldn't agree with you more Derek!!!!!

[ofjames]

Derek Wheeler: You must be new around here, because, simply picking out one post like that and adding "contradiction" in caps suggests you are.

Yes i am very new around here. This is 'suggested' in much clearer terms by the caption reading 'new to the board' under my username.

DW: cross radial rail solutions in Dublin must serve the major foot fall areas and integrate with existing rail and planned rail. Metro West and the details we have so far, fail to address this in the best possible manner.

1) From what I can see, if the route option 1 is chosen with relevant sub-options, each of the major footfall areas would be served by metro west... Seeing as the route could start within a stones throw of the square, run through clondalkin village, past the fonthill industrial estate, past both the cinema and M&S entrances to liffey valley and run directly between the West End and Red Entrance car parks at blanch. To my eyes, this route would provide very adequate connectivity between the major footfall areas.

2) Further, it is clear that both of the route options have stops to facilitate interchange with Maynooth/Navan DART, Hazelhatch DART, Lucan Luas and Red Line/Citywest Luas. Again, this seems good to me, could you describe for me what the optimal integration would be? and how the current (potential) arrangements are inadequate?

DW: Firstly, it is not a metro. It's a slightly higher spec Luas. Secondly, if done in a proper manner, it would be built entirely underground and run through both The Square, Liffey Valley and Blanch town centre. In fact, if it actually was a proper metro it could run in an "S" like fashion serving Ballymount, Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley and Blanch, (thats just a teaser) before it connects with Metro North. Bottom line. Its a cheapo project that integrates with damn all and is driven purely and simply by developers interests. (which is part of the RPA's remit)

1) There's no dispute on your first point, even the RPA states in the FAQ section on its website that metro west is "designed as a Luas line that can be upgraded to Metro when required." However, I dont see why that should be seen in a derogatory sense. Clearly, when/if it begins to operate (given that it will will run at road level and in the beginning, have a similar operating capacity and tram length) it will effectively be another luas line.

However, the RPA have stated that the line will be built with a potential capacity which is double that of the luas, and that as demand increases, service will become more frequent and the longer metro north trams will be brought to use on the line. That seems reasonable to me.

I see a parallel in this debate between the Red Line Luas and the Green Line Luas. The Green Line was built with an (almost) entirely road-segregated track and has had longer trams and more frequent service. Alternatively Red line has to share road space with traffic and has shorter trams. Now, in line with demand, the longer trams are being brought in on the Red Line so to increase its capacity. Why cant the same approach work for Metro West? Or does it follow that the Red line luas was only a 'half-baked' project aswell?

2) The cost of a 28km+ tunnel would make the project completely unviable. The RPA say that surface lines are 5 times cheaper than underground, 3 times cheaper than elevated. As there are serious questions regarding the cost-benefit of the project as a it stands, talk of underground or elevated is completely unrealistic.

Furthermore, if you take metro north as a reference point, the benefit of an underground metro west in terms of decreased journey time doesnt compensate for the increased cost to the taxpayer in my opinion.

Stephens Green to Swords (17km route) will supposedly take 26mins on Metro North, an average speed of just above 39 kmph.

Tallaght to Dublin Airport (28km+) will supposedly take 60mins on Metro West (plus a short spurt on Metro North), an average speed of 28kmph.

At the Metro North average speed, this same journey would take 43mins. Given the cost savings, I think a maximum of an extra 17 mins on your journey is not excessive. Surface line is far better value-for-money in my opinion.

3) Provided we lay a substantial burden of the cost of infrastructural projects at their door, developers involvement is welcome as far as im concerned!

[Derek Wheeler]

Read your post once. I'll get back to you on it and its faults, as at the moment, Im preparing for a savage weekend of fun and no transport discussion with anyone bar the ticket checkers on the Cork line.

But by all means, everyone pile in and share your thoughts, while Im enjoying life.

CIAO. (Derek packs bag and zooms out the door.)