[Article] Serious flaws found in Luas system - Page 3

Mark Gleeson · 08-01-2006, 12:49

There was no flaw in the Cahir viaduct, it was structurally sound the fault was a once in a million wheel rail interaction with a freight wagon, it could never have happened to a passenger train and it was only after the accident was the issue discovered. The Cahir viaduct does not feature in the safety audits publicly available, note publicly available the Luas report is still buried and was only leaked to the Irish Times

In this case

1) RPA knew about the flaw
2) RPA pushed ahead opening depite the contractor wishing to relay effected sections
3) Since the lines opened no remedial works have been carried out
4) The RPA can't make up there mind how bad it is

RPA keep changing there story
First there is no risk its under control work will be done at night, then we get the civil engineering professor in UCD stating the system isn't designed correctly anyway and needs a total redesign in the sharp corners, who do you believe a civil engineering professor who has no connection with Luas or former banker in charge of the RPA

Then the story changes to if no work is done to repair the faults it will become a safety issue and Ger Hannon starts talking about single line working in Fridays Indo, so there will be closures and hassle

To put some context on this 57% of all blocks in corners are defective that every second block thats scary

Key point is the RPA opened in the line with a serious safety issue hanging over them which they should have dealt with before the lines where open and in doing so it could have been done quicker and without disruption to 80,000 a day who have grown used to using the Luas lines, its now a year and a half later and a shutdown or the luas even a partial one is a not something we want to consider

alek smart · 08-01-2006, 20:57

I would not be too sure of the Luas story being dead Thomas S.....Not by a long shot.
The RPA in this instance are playing their PR cards very close to their chests and only speaking when spoken to.
The decision to commence full Luas operations on Track which was underperforming in it`s STATIC mode may well be construed in a Court as removing some of the obligation on the Contractor (A Consortium I understand).
I have little doubt but that the AMB consortium is already taking all prudent steps to limit their financial exposure in relation to this situation.
I can forsee AMB moving to have much of their Guarantee exposure limited in the light of the decisions (or lack thereof) of the RPA and by certain senior officials in The Dept of Transport.
There is also the prospect of one or more of the companies within the Consortium perhaps going into liquidation which would have a somewhat unsettling effect on the exposure of those remaining,especially if the remaining companies were NOT directly associated with the defective polymer process.
There is an odd but very definite similarity between the Port Tunnel and the Luas revelations and it`s my firm belief that both will be the subject of long tedious and expensive dissection in or about the Four Courts.
I rather suspect that the Irish Taxpayer will eventually find themselves funding somewhat more of the various "fixes" than is presently being admitted to.
Still....perhaps it will lead to a new module in our Engineering Degree courses...."Places NOT to be considered as suitable comparators for Dublin when searching for new techniques in Moisture Ingress prevention......No 1. Madrid......No 2 Bilbao....etc etc"

Mark Gleeson · 10-01-2006, 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Independent

Finance officials knew about Luas faults before launch
Fionnan Sheahan
Political Correspondent
THE Department of Finance knew about the Laus faults before it opened, the Irish Independent has confirmed.

A civil servant in the department responsible for the efficient spending of taxpayers' money was on a supervisory group told of the flaws in the new €800m tram line.

The mid-ranking official did not inform the then Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy or the secretary general of their department of the flaws when made aware of it in early 2004.

The bill to repair the flaws will hit up to €10m and will have to be paid by the contractors.

The damage is so bad that the contractors claim they will have to rip up one-third of the track, causing massive disruption, to fix the problem. An assistant principal officer from the Department of Finance was on the committee in charge of monitoring the rollout of the transport project, including the financial and budgetary aspects.

The Luas Monitoring Committee was informed of the problem in early 2004.
Luas chiefs have rejected the proposal to rip up the lines, and told them to go back to the drawing board and come up with another way to mend the bonding material connecting the rail lines to the blocks.

Transport Minister Martin Cullen and his predecessor Minister Seamus Brennan insist they only found out after the lines opened.

Last night, a department spokesman said its representative on the committee did not inform superiors as the problem was not going to cost the taxpayer. "The key concern would be if the exchequer position changed," he added.

© Irish Independent 2006
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=13523

Mark Gleeson · 10-01-2006, 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Independent

The real story on Luas repair
Sir - I refer to the extensive reports last week in your paper in relation to Luas. It is remarkable that a story centring on an issue with no safety implications or cost implications or significant disruption implications can prompt contributions from no less than four journalists and the dedication of the editorial section. This says much about your editorial policy.

I am extremely disappointed at the level of inaccuracy in many of the articles, particularly your editorial, despite the fact that your journalist was afforded full assistance during the course of seven phone calls by three members of the RPA management.

Your editorial states that Luas "looks set to cost perhaps another €100m in running repairs". You stretch your own credibility given that Treacy Hogan on page one refers to flaws costing "as much as €10m to fix".

It will not be necessary to rip up any track, contrary to your claim that one-third of Luas track will need to be ripped up. Whilst the type of track construction concerned represents one-third of all Luas track, less than 5% will require modification.

Your front page photo showing a worker on the Luas line on Middle Abbey Street is completely misleading in that it suggests that the polymer issue arises on city-centre streets. This is not the case and this was made very clear to your journalist.

The graphic on page five again misrepresents the extent/location of the problem areas and illustrates a type of track construction that is unaffected. No remedial works are required between Adelaide Road and St Stephen's Green.

It also shows that the area between Smithfield and Rialto is affected. This is totally false despite the fact that your reporter was advised accordingly. The confusion is further compounded by the feature on the resident of Rialto who is annoyed at the disruption the repairs may cause in her locality. This unfounded concern was fuelled by your journalist.

You state that "if the investigation by the Institute for Railway Engineering at the University of Graz had not revealed the potential gravity - the situation would probably have gone unattended to". I also made it patently clear to Treacy Hogan that the problem first came to light in April 2004 as a direct consequence of quality-control procedures put in place by RPA.

Finally, I take great exception to your assertion that "it now appears that passengers' safety has been compromised from the very start" and that there are "God-like" figures in the RPA. The RPA has professional staff who never compromise passenger safety, who will make the correct decisions regardless of external influences, alleged or otherwise and who will continue to act in the best interests of the taxpayer.
Michael Sheedy,
Director, Light Rail,
RPA

© Irish Independent 2006
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=13523

Donal Quinn · 10-01-2006, 12:12

like 'em or loath 'em that is leadership
standing up for his company and taking no cr@p and putting a string line accross
like i said - hopefully this will rub off on IE

Mark Gleeson · 10-01-2006, 12:29

At this stage the questions are all unanswered, the RPA tend to come out fighting when you back them into a corner they never tell you what you want only to try to discredit what information you have (made worse by a refusal to release the info you need), only to u turn some months later (40m trams, metro etc)

We have no clarity on the true scale of the issue or how much disruption or what the safety risks are, what safety management procedures are and what they are going to do about it

What we know is 30% odd blocks are defective and that number is increasing thus this 5% of all track is interesting

Can we have the safety report ? then we all can find out what is going on and learn the truth as that report raised design issues with respect to the curves which are related to the track type not its installation or conditon

alek smart · 10-01-2006, 23:05

Hello Hello....Whats this then.....?
The Contractors want to "Rip-Up" sections of track but the RPA want them to "Go back to the Drawing Board and come up with an alternative method of repairing the defects"
This appears to me to be a very fundamental difference of opinion on the very first step to take in this sorry tale.
It would also be worth asking whether any of these entities HAS a drawing board..?
In the light of this slowly developing fiasco the RPA`s decision to withold information on the proposed Metro seems to be barely tenable as it surely leaves the entire Metro proposal open to all manner of speculative challenge.
However,the need to keep things secret is deeply ingrained in the Civil Service phsyche and Public Transport is no different in their book..

What IS somewhat disconcerting is the in-fighting being reported on in advance of ANY remedial work being attempted....at this very moment the rain is pelting down in sheets and if I drive down the road to the Kingswood Curve I will be able to observe the theory and practice of imperfect polymer dynamics at first hand....Its beginning to look as if Proffessor Mags O Mahoney from TCD will have an opportunity "To Knock Heads Together" a lot sooner than she may have intended....not to mention the size of the heads she has to grapple with....

sean · 11-01-2006, 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

There was no flaw in the Cahir viaduct, it was structurally sound the fault was a once in a million wheel rail interaction with a freight wagon, it could never have happened to a passenger train and it was only after the accident was the issue discovered. The Cahir viaduct does not feature in the safety audits publicly available, note publicly available the Luas report is still buried and was only leaked to the Irish Times

Where is the Cahir accident report?

Mark Gleeson · 11-01-2006, 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean

Where is the Cahir accident report?

The preliminary report is online www.transport.ie

What is interesting is the IRMS safety audits of Irish Rail (of which there have been 4) are all available online and are very detailed, no safety information concerning Luas has been made public, what do they have to hide ?

alek smart · 11-01-2006, 22:59

Its Civil Service mentality time again...
They dont actually have much to hide at the moment,however,Going Forward there may develop a range of scenarios which may or may not be constued as suitable for release,or not, into the public domain.
Therefore in anticipation of such occurance(s) it is considered prudent for officials to secure the capacity for safe storage of such sensitive material as may be deemed unreleasable from time to time at the direction of an authorised officer of the Department or of any other individual granted such powers by Ministerial order or act of an t- Oireacthas...
Unofficially its known as the Martin Principle and revolves around The Republic being the only country in the World which considers Temperature Controlled Warehousing as being an integral part of a large Computer Purchase Tender....

Nothin to Hide ??...C`mon then Lets find yiz somethin to be goin on with ..!!

janda · 11-01-2006, 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by alek smart

Unofficially its known as the Martin Principle and revolves around The Republic being the only country in the World which considers Temperature Controlled Warehousing as being an integral part of a large Computer Purchase Tender....

Em-data centres/server rooms are temperature controlled.

Mark Gleeson · 11-01-2006, 23:27

Think that was a reference to e-voting screw up

The DoT and RPA are in serious ass cover mode here. Put it this way if the RPA managers had taken the sensible decision to abandon the opening in favour of allowing the contractor relay the line they would most likely be out of a job no question there

There is risk in everything, and that why something know as ALARP, as low as reasonably practical is frequently used and there is an accepted risk level, the tolerable risk

In this case it was more than reasonably practical for the contractor to fix the problem prior to opening, best practice comes to mind, sometimes the doing the right thing comes at a price, a month or two delay on a project that was years late the public wouldn't care

Morlan · 12-01-2006, 02:35

Not sure if it's any use to you but there's some pictures here: http://luaswatch.blogspot.com/

MrX · 12-01-2006, 10:31

That looks pretty bad. What would worry me is that it looks like the track was installed in such a way that has allowed water to pool like that. It seems to be typically bad dublin street surface water drainage.

You would assume that the water would run off to the sides rather than pool right on the tracks like that.

Looks more like a poor installation job than a problem with the materials.

That's just my own off the cuff non-technical analysis of it

Mark Gleeson · 12-01-2006, 11:32

Those photos have nothing to do with the defects

The issue is in edilon block track not the edilon embeded track which it used on street

Attached is the issue at hand the corkelast material is the layer between the block and the slab underneath

MrX · 12-01-2006, 16:24

At least those are semi-accessible in comparison to the on-street track.

However, that track did seem to be in a pretty poor state. I'm supprised by the lack of drainage / pooling.

So basically, ignoring the street embedded track thats:

The entire red line
and the greenline section from just before charlemont through to beechwood, the rest of the line being ballasted track

Morlan · 12-01-2006, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Those photos have nothing to do with the defects

The issue is in ebilon block track not the ebilon embeded track which it used on street

Attached is the issue at hand the corkelast material is the layer between the block and the slab underneath

What's that other material between the track and the road?

Mark Gleeson · 12-01-2006, 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morlan

What's that other material between the track and the road?

I'm not 100% sure but it could be this Corkelast material the rail is embedded in it, we know the base of the rail is on a Corkelast layer the rest appears to be a rubber like compound

Mark Gleeson · 12-01-2006, 20:31

Yes more coverage today and to be fair to RTE they where 100% on the ball and had there man out trackside standing on the defective edilon block

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTE News

LUAS problems more significant than disclosed
12 January 2006 20:19

It has emerged that problems with the LUAS tracks are more significant than previously disclosed.

A series of reports commissioned by the Railway Procurement Agency warns problems with tracks on LUAS could cause excessive widening between rails.

The RPA says the issue is being monitored every week and that the network remains totally safe.

The Railway Procurement Agency says about 5% of Luas track will require remediation to eliminate the risk of any significant long-term deterioration.

Work on addressing the problems, which could cost up to €10m, will commence in the coming months.

MrX · 12-01-2006, 21:42

One track related question. At the sharp bend between charlemount and harcourt how come some trams make an unmerciful screeching noise which sounds like an intercity train taking a sharp bend, while others take the corner silently. Intially i thought it was a speed-related thing, but it seems far more random than that.

08-01-2006, 12:49	#41
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	There was no flaw in the Cahir viaduct, it was structurally sound the fault was a once in a million wheel rail interaction with a freight wagon, it could never have happened to a passenger train and it was only after the accident was the issue discovered. The Cahir viaduct does not feature in the safety audits publicly available, note publicly available the Luas report is still buried and was only leaked to the Irish Times In this case 1) RPA knew about the flaw 2) RPA pushed ahead opening depite the contractor wishing to relay effected sections 3) Since the lines opened no remedial works have been carried out 4) The RPA can't make up there mind how bad it is RPA keep changing there story First there is no risk its under control work will be done at night, then we get the civil engineering professor in UCD stating the system isn't designed correctly anyway and needs a total redesign in the sharp corners, who do you believe a civil engineering professor who has no connection with Luas or former banker in charge of the RPA Then the story changes to if no work is done to repair the faults it will become a safety issue and Ger Hannon starts talking about single line working in Fridays Indo, so there will be closures and hassle To put some context on this 57% of all blocks in corners are defective that every second block thats scary Key point is the RPA opened in the line with a serious safety issue hanging over them which they should have dealt with before the lines where open and in doing so it could have been done quicker and without disruption to 80,000 a day who have grown used to using the Luas lines, its now a year and a half later and a shutdown or the luas even a partial one is a not something we want to consider Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 08-01-2006 at 16:35.

08-01-2006, 20:57	#42
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	Loose Luas I would not be too sure of the Luas story being dead Thomas S.....Not by a long shot. The RPA in this instance are playing their PR cards very close to their chests and only speaking when spoken to. The decision to commence full Luas operations on Track which was underperforming in it`s STATIC mode may well be construed in a Court as removing some of the obligation on the Contractor (A Consortium I understand). I have little doubt but that the AMB consortium is already taking all prudent steps to limit their financial exposure in relation to this situation. I can forsee AMB moving to have much of their Guarantee exposure limited in the light of the decisions (or lack thereof) of the RPA and by certain senior officials in The Dept of Transport. There is also the prospect of one or more of the companies within the Consortium perhaps going into liquidation which would have a somewhat unsettling effect on the exposure of those remaining,especially if the remaining companies were NOT directly associated with the defective polymer process. There is an odd but very definite similarity between the Port Tunnel and the Luas revelations and it`s my firm belief that both will be the subject of long tedious and expensive dissection in or about the Four Courts. I rather suspect that the Irish Taxpayer will eventually find themselves funding somewhat more of the various "fixes" than is presently being admitted to. Still....perhaps it will lead to a new module in our Engineering Degree courses...."Places NOT to be considered as suitable comparators for Dublin when searching for new techniques in Moisture Ingress prevention......No 1. Madrid......No 2 Bilbao....etc etc"

12-01-2006, 11:32	#55
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Those photos have nothing to do with the defects The issue is in edilon block track not the edilon embeded track which it used on street Attached is the issue at hand the corkelast material is the layer between the block and the slab underneath Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 19-01-2006 at 20:17.

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10-01-2006, 12:12	#45
Donal Quinn Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 267	like 'em or loath 'em that is leadership standing up for his company and taking no cr@p and putting a string line accross like i said - hopefully this will rub off on IE

10-01-2006, 12:29	#46
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	At this stage the questions are all unanswered, the RPA tend to come out fighting when you back them into a corner they never tell you what you want only to try to discredit what information you have (made worse by a refusal to release the info you need), only to u turn some months later (40m trams, metro etc) We have no clarity on the true scale of the issue or how much disruption or what the safety risks are, what safety management procedures are and what they are going to do about it What we know is 30% odd blocks are defective and that number is increasing thus this 5% of all track is interesting Can we have the safety report ? then we all can find out what is going on and learn the truth as that report raised design issues with respect to the curves which are related to the track type not its installation or conditon

10-01-2006, 23:05	#47
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	Hello Hello....Whats this then.....? The Contractors want to "Rip-Up" sections of track but the RPA want them to "Go back to the Drawing Board and come up with an alternative method of repairing the defects" This appears to me to be a very fundamental difference of opinion on the very first step to take in this sorry tale. It would also be worth asking whether any of these entities HAS a drawing board..? In the light of this slowly developing fiasco the RPA`s decision to withold information on the proposed Metro seems to be barely tenable as it surely leaves the entire Metro proposal open to all manner of speculative challenge. However,the need to keep things secret is deeply ingrained in the Civil Service phsyche and Public Transport is no different in their book.. What IS somewhat disconcerting is the in-fighting being reported on in advance of ANY remedial work being attempted....at this very moment the rain is pelting down in sheets and if I drive down the road to the Kingswood Curve I will be able to observe the theory and practice of imperfect polymer dynamics at first hand....Its beginning to look as if Proffessor Mags O Mahoney from TCD will have an opportunity "To Knock Heads Together" a lot sooner than she may have intended....not to mention the size of the heads she has to grapple with....

11-01-2006, 22:59	#50
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	Its Civil Service mentality time again... They dont actually have much to hide at the moment,however,Going Forward there may develop a range of scenarios which may or may not be constued as suitable for release,or not, into the public domain. Therefore in anticipation of such occurance(s) it is considered prudent for officials to secure the capacity for safe storage of such sensitive material as may be deemed unreleasable from time to time at the direction of an authorised officer of the Department or of any other individual granted such powers by Ministerial order or act of an t- Oireacthas... Unofficially its known as the Martin Principle and revolves around The Republic being the only country in the World which considers Temperature Controlled Warehousing as being an integral part of a large Computer Purchase Tender.... Nothin to Hide ??...C`mon then Lets find yiz somethin to be goin on with ..!!

11-01-2006, 23:27	#52
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Think that was a reference to e-voting screw up The DoT and RPA are in serious ass cover mode here. Put it this way if the RPA managers had taken the sensible decision to abandon the opening in favour of allowing the contractor relay the line they would most likely be out of a job no question there There is risk in everything, and that why something know as ALARP, as low as reasonably practical is frequently used and there is an accepted risk level, the tolerable risk In this case it was more than reasonably practical for the contractor to fix the problem prior to opening, best practice comes to mind, sometimes the doing the right thing comes at a price, a month or two delay on a project that was years late the public wouldn't care

12-01-2006, 02:35	#53
Morlan New to the board Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Baile Átha Cliath. Location: see above Posts: 8	Not sure if it's any use to you but there's some pictures here: http://luaswatch.blogspot.com/

12-01-2006, 10:31	#54
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	That looks pretty bad. What would worry me is that it looks like the track was installed in such a way that has allowed water to pool like that. It seems to be typically bad dublin street surface water drainage. You would assume that the water would run off to the sides rather than pool right on the tracks like that. Looks more like a poor installation job than a problem with the materials. That's just my own off the cuff non-technical analysis of it

12-01-2006, 16:24	#56
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	At least those are semi-accessible in comparison to the on-street track. However, that track did seem to be in a pretty poor state. I'm supprised by the lack of drainage / pooling. So basically, ignoring the street embedded track thats: The entire red line and the greenline section from just before charlemont through to beechwood, the rest of the line being ballasted track

12-01-2006, 21:42	#60
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	One track related question. At the sharp bend between charlemount and harcourt how come some trams make an unmerciful screeching noise which sounds like an intercity train taking a sharp bend, while others take the corner silently. Intially i thought it was a speed-related thing, but it seems far more random than that.