[article] Rail user group concerned about DART overcrowding

[dowlingm]

If the changes are reasonable and necessary why not go through the process with NTA rather than gonzo it and risk a complaint?

Mind you this is the crowd who caused a major stink by changing the timetable a few years back before the necessary rostering change had been signed off on.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

I don't necessarily disagree about your comments on set utilisation - in fact I think that you are completely right about that - but I think that stating that one takes the view that catching them out as "fun" frankly makes the person concerned look rather childish to say the least.

I've managed to have interactions with the various transport companies over the years and achieved some results, and I have never had experienced the negative reactions referred to in Mark's post above. But we're all different I suppose.

well, we have experienced plenty of hostility, resistance and aggression, both passive and active. not to mention paranoia. We've been in this game for ten years now and whilst there is a wind of change in attitude in the company in the air, it is hardly blowing strong.

BTW - Waterford train broke down in KK this morning, passengers "will" be put on the next train. There are almost daily breakdowns of 22K's now.

[Jamie2k9]

BTW - Waterford train broke down in KK this morning, passengers "will" be put on the next train. There are almost daily breakdowns of 22K's now.

Nothing new with the 7.10, anytime it breaks down they never bother with a transfer just move to the 7.50 service. It's fine to let 70-100 passengers waiting in Carlow/Athy for 70 minutes. These customers who pay very high fares and lets be honest keep the company going like most other commuter towns along IC routes.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

Nothing new with the 7.10, anytime it breaks down they never bother with a transfer just move to the 7.50 service. It's fine to let 70-100 passengers waiting in Carlow/Athy for 70 minutes. These customers who pay very high fares and lets be honest keep the company going like most other commuter towns along IC routes.

What's that you were saying about breakdowns on IR not being a regular occurrance.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

well, we have experienced plenty of hostility, resistance and aggression, both passive and active. not to mention paranoia. We've been in this game for ten years now and whilst there is a wind of change in attitude in the company in the air, it is hardly blowing strong.

Well all I can again say is that I've never experienced or indeed heard any of that (other than hearing the former Chairman) over my 20 years being in contact in the various organisations, but again maybe that's down to personalities on either side.

My real point was that firstly that I felt that an official spokesperson of a user group looks rather childish if he expresses the view in public that he views it as "fun" to catch out organisations - I think that just makes the organisation look daft!! The second point was that more (I would think) would be gained from focussing on the DARTs with capacity issues and addressing that, rather than wasting time with the NTA on changeovers at Connolly that may not have any capacity issues in the first place!!

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

BTW - Waterford train broke down in KK this morning, passengers "will" be put on the next train. There are almost daily breakdowns of 22K's now.

Originally Posted by grainne whale

What's that you were saying about breakdowns on IR not being a regular occurance.

I think that there's a bit of exaggeration going on here. There are hardly "daily" failures.

There was one particular day in July when everything that could go wrong on a railway, when a fatality, breakdown and signalling failure all happened on the same day - that frankly was highly unusual. I would add that does not excuse the poor handling of the situation, which was shambolic to say the least.

There was the recent failure two weeks ago which blocked the line at Hazelhatch. Again that was unfortunate.

Those combined with the train failing yesterday are unfortunate, but it is hardly the case that the trains are failing every day. I'm not sure there is a transport company anywhere (be it a bus, train or airline) that doesn't experience some disruption due to technical issues at some stage - no it shouldn't happen, but last time I checked we don't live in some artificial utopia of perfection either.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

Well all I can again say is that I've never experienced or indeed heard any of that (other than hearing the former Chairman) over my 20 years being in contact in the various organisations, but again maybe that's down to personalities on either side.

My real point was that firstly that I felt that an official spokesperson of a user group looks rather childish if he expresses the view in public that he views it as "fun" to catch out organisations - I think that just makes the organisation look daft!! The second point was that more (I would think) would be gained from focussing on the DARTs with capacity issues and addressing that, rather than wasting time with the NTA on changeovers at Connolly that may not have any capacity issues in the first place!!





I think that there's a bit of exaggeration going on here. There are hardly "daily" failures.

There was one particular day in July when everything that could go wrong on a railway, when a fatality, breakdown and signalling failure all happened on the same day - that frankly was highly unusual. I would add that does not excuse the poor handling of the situation, which was shambolic to say the least.

There was the recent failure two weeks ago which blocked the line at Hazelhatch. Again that was unfortunate.

Those combined with the train failing yesterday are unfortunate, but it is hardly the case that the trains are failing every day. I'm not sure there is a transport company anywhere (be it a bus, train or airline) that doesn't experience some disruption due to technical issues at some stage - no it shouldn't happen, but last time I checked we don't live in some artificial utopia of perfection either.

Unfortunate is no use when you are a regular commuter and you are try to get in and out to/from work on time. I am referring to breakdowns, signalling failures, and trains running late. A train running up to 10mins. late is apparently ontime according to IR. Oh and today there was ANOTHER signalling failure on the Cork line, one of work colleagues who commutes from Thurles arrived late for work today - disruptions are quite common.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by grainne whale

Unfortunate is no use when you are a regular commuter and you are try to get in and out to/from work on time. I am referring to breakdowns, signalling failures, and trains running late. A train running up to 10mins. late is apparently ontime according to IR. Oh and today there was ANOTHER signalling failure on the Cork line, one of work colleagues who commutes from Thurles arrived late for work today - disruptions are quite common.

Indeed but I don't it is realistic to everything to work like clockwork every single day of the year (which from your posts you seem to do) - that just doesn't happen anywhere. That day in July was just bizarre to say the least - it was a day when everything conspired against the railway running properly, and frankly the railway did fail their customers.

I would expect things to work properly the majority of the time, which to be fair they would appear to do, but you do have to allow for something occasionally going wrong. Again we don't live in utopia.

I would ask how are you defining "quite common"?

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

Indeed but I don't it is realistic to everything to work like clockwork every single day of the year (which from your posts you seem to do) - that just doesn't happen anywhere. That day in July was just bizarre to say the least - it was a day when everything conspired against the railway running properly, and frankly the railway did fail their customers.

I would expect things to work properly the majority of the time, which to be fair they would appear to do, but you do have to allow for something occasionally going wrong. Again we don't live in utopia.

I would ask how are you defining "quite common"?

quite common = common enough

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by grainne whale

quite common = common enough

I'm sorry, but if you're going to make a statement like that, you need to be able to stand over it.

A vague statement like that could mean once a week, once a fortnight, once a month, once every few months.

That's being deliberately vague.

[James Howard]

I find the general reliability on the Sligo line (Longford commuter) to be excellent and it is a lot better than it was a few years ago where we used to have to put up with 10-15 minute delays every single evening during leaf-slip season. I would estimate on the trains that I take, I get half-hour delays 3 or 4 times a year, and 10 minute delays around once a month. I normally take the 0545 from Sligo and the 1805 to Longford.

However, when something does go wrong, Irish Rail are comically useless at dealing with it - and they have got worse over the years. I guess this is because of the reduced number of staff on the line these days. This is something that they really could work on and any pressure that can be applied to Irish Rail to do this would be welcome.

If they are not prepared to play nicely, then using the NTA and the letter of the law in order to make things better is all well and fine. Just because things are reasonably good doesn't mean that they couldn't be better. For example, the Sligo line had close to 99% on-time last month. It would be well worth looking at getting these targets tightened or the timetable times made quicker.

[James Howard]

Of course, that'll teach me. The 1805 to Longford is stuck in Maynooth behind a failed train. Not expecting a quick resolution

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by James Howard

Of course, that'll teach me. The 1805 to Longford is stuck in Maynooth behind a failed train. Not expecting a quick resolution

I'd better let 'berneyarms' know He/she seems to think that disruption only happens occasionally.

[James Howard]

I know nothing about what goes on out of Hueston - I've only travelled 4 times a week from Edgeworthstown to Dublin for the last 9 years. But major disruption on the Sligo line that affects me is generally reasonably rare. Unfortunately when major problems do happen, it is fair to say that they are not handled with aplomb.

It does seem to go wrong disproportionately often on Wednesdays which is fine for me as I rarely go to Dublin on Wednesdays.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

I'm sorry, but if you're going to make a statement like that, you need to be able to stand over it.

A vague statement like that could mean once a week, once a fortnight, once a month, once every few months.

That's being deliberately vague.

almost daily = almost every day. check out cancellations/delays from "mechanical faults" on irish rails twitter account.

bear in mind that our network is actually quite small when you're doing it, and that we report real life issues which happen to real life people and try not to just engage in rethoric in trying to explain such things away.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

Well all I can again say is that I've never experienced or indeed heard any of that (other than hearing the former Chairman) over my 20 years being in contact in the various organisations, but again maybe that's down to personalities on either side.

My real point was that firstly that I felt that an official spokesperson of a user group looks rather childish if he expresses the view in public that he views it as "fun" to catch out organisations - I think that just makes the organisation look daft!! The second point was that more (I would think) would be gained from focussing on the DARTs with capacity issues and addressing that, rather than wasting time with the NTA on changeovers at Connolly that may not have any capacity issues in the first place!!

you seem to have a real hang up with that "fun" word. I am not sure by which former chairman you mean, so I will guess its Derek. The thing is, even I, a much cooler and more detatched sort of chap than Derek was, have personally experianced this sort of stuff. Instead of personalities, maybe its the context. In 10 years we have gone from being suspected of being a front for ILDA to having regular meetings with IE managers and having our input recognised and doing things in partnership with IE. Things like input into the timetable (before the general public does) and RUI members being the first to use the IE smartcard on testing runs.

But it is only honest to mention that in that time a lot of the old managers in IE have moved on too, people who wouldnt recognise any form of passeger representation group and who even went as far as to try to set up "local rail groups" who were all closed down when they got a bit too honest and vocal.

We now find that the managment in IE are more focused on passengers and the commercial realities that the company now exists in. Heretofore it was meeting lifers who knew that even if nobody was on a service that it would run at the same time, with the same staff, and the same stock, as it always did. That said, it is not perfect, and some of the things which happen are annoying. We will hear of frozen points in the coming winter season because they havent put in point heaters. We will hear of heating not working in trains, of blocked toilets, of non existant staff when things go wrong, of the PIS not working, showing the wrong train, showing the wrong direction. Of late trains, of no announcements regarding refunds, of cancelled trains without notice.

Sure, its maybe small stuff to what we were looking at when formed, and sure, there will always be the rumours going about on closing lines and such like, but they are all important. It only takes ones straw to break the camels back and that lost passenger will not only not return but he/she will waste no time telling their family/friends why.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

you seem to have a real hang up with that "fun" word. I am not sure by which former chairman you mean, so I will guess its Derek. The thing is, even I, a much cooler and more detatched sort of chap than Derek was, have personally experianced this sort of stuff. Instead of personalities, maybe its the context. In 10 years we have gone from being suspected of being a front for ILDA to having regular meetings with IE managers and having our input recognised and doing things in partnership with IE. Things like input into the timetable (before the general public does) and RUI members being the first to use the IE smartcard on testing runs.

But it is only honest to mention that in that time a lot of the old managers in IE have moved on too, people who wouldnt recognise any form of passeger representation group and who even went as far as to try to set up "local rail groups" who were all closed down when they got a bit too honest and vocal.

We now find that the managment in IE are more focused on passengers and the commercial realities that the company now exists in. Heretofore it was meeting lifers who knew that even if nobody was on a service that it would run at the same time, with the same staff, and the same stock, as it always did. That said, it is not perfect, and some of the things which happen are annoying. We will hear of frozen points in the coming winter season because they havent put in point heaters. We will hear of heating not working in trains, of blocked toilets, of non existant staff when things go wrong, of the PIS not working, showing the wrong train, showing the wrong direction. Of late trains, of no announcements regarding refunds, of cancelled trains without notice.

Sure, its maybe small stuff to what we were looking at when formed, and sure, there will always be the rumours going about on closing lines and such like, but they are all important. It only takes ones straw to break the camels back and that lost passenger will not only not return but he/she will waste no time telling their family/friends why.

I meant the Chairman of CIE and not RUI - Dr Lynch. I was referring to my experiences with people in the operating companies. He was the only individual that I have come across (albeit indirectly) as aggressive.

I do have a hang-up with the "fun" word yes - because the context in which it was used makes it look as if you're on an ego trip rather than actually genuinely trying to get things fixed in a constructive way.

Call me old fashioned, but I don't think that there's a need for that sort of language or attitude, as it really sounds unprofessional and does not become a group that is supposed to be a representative organisation.

I take on board the rest of your points - very constructively put!

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by grainne whale

I'd better let 'berneyarms' know He/she seems to think that disruption only happens occasionally.

Murphy's law strikes, but I still think you are exaggerating somewhat, and at the same time seem to expect that nothing will ever go wrong!

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

Murphy's law strikes, but I still think you are exaggerating somewhat, and at the same time seem to expect that nothing will ever go wrong!

That's correct - we have alot of Murphy's in this country, so it strikes quite frequently with IR, considering we really don't have a large rail network.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by James Howard

I find the general reliability on the Sligo line (Longford commuter) to be excellent and it is a lot better than it was a few years ago

The line was saturated, with all slots used. They moved two of the trains from Sligo to different times, reducing pressure.

[James Howard]

Yep - the 1700 from Sligo was a disaster. It had to cross with either 5 or 6 trains and most of those were between Longford and Maynooth - I think there was only one crossing point where it didn't cross with another train.

The effect has been rather dramatic. Most of time since they moved this to 1800, I arrive into Edgeworthstown 3 or 4 minutes early in the evening.