[article] Rail plans on the wrong track

[Mark]

Economical with the truth..again.

integration between rail modes barely exists anywhere in the world

- I'm going to hold you to that Barry.

[Colm Donoghue]

Maybe IE havn't been aware of the system in the RER in Paris, developed in the '70s, with cross platform interchange[1]. comparing Ireland's new 350m interchanges with Le Metropolitan from 2 centuries ago while ignoring what happened 30 years ago in the same cities....

Maybe they're ignorant or maybe they're stupid or maybe they're trying to con us.

[1] Sato & Essig, Japan railway and transport review March 2000.

[Mark Hennessy]

Originally Posted by Mark

Economical with the truth..again.

- I'm going to hold you to that Barry.

Sounds like he is posting on boards as Metrobest
Those cross platform transfers work like a dream, the RER used the Tokyo system as a model.
I dont think anyone is looking for that ( obviously ) in Drumcondra but if anyone has used Brixton tube to train in London will know what should be
built in Drumcondra at the very least as a Dart/Metro interchange.
I guess the only good thing about Barry's letter is that he didnt claim that an interchange between Maynooth line at Sherriff st and DART was the type common the world over

[Mark Gleeson]

Really wonder does Barry want to get caught out since the last few letters to the press have had gapping holes, its not as if Mr Kenny doesn't know what we know, if the 350m was undercover on a travelator sure we could forget about it, but since there is no phyiscal connection its not integrated

Rule one in PR is to keep quiet when you are ahead

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Spinmeister

The use of the Phoenix Park tunnel to Docklands for Kildare services would not add any capacity to the system, but would rather result in Kildare commuters taking longer to get to the city centre than they do currently, and prevent planned expansion in the Maynooth line and proposed Dunboyne/Pace line services.

Hmm

Joe Meagher while Chief Executive of Iarnród Éireann went on record in front of the joint oireacthas committee on Feb 25th 2004

We certainly intend to use the Phoenix Park tunnel in the short term to bring trains from the Kildare-Newbridge area into Spencer Dock because there is a demand for that.

Oh yeah the station can take up to 10 trains per hour, track capacity on the Maynooth line is 8tph currently and 4tph will run to Connolly, I think the math is fairly simple to prove Mr Kenny is talking bull

I know quite a few people in Kildare/Newbridge who work in the IFSC (not to mention the south city Grand Canal Dock etc), and the Park Tunnel would be faster. Its 5 minutes from platform to Luas stop in Heuston, wait 3 minutes, its too full, wait another 4, get moving 12 minutes later Connolly, thats 24 minutes, its another 7 minutes on foot to Mayor Street, 31 minutes total, by train 15 minutes plus 5 walk. You could of course get out at Drumcondra its only 15 minutes to O'Connell Street

And I see no reason why the line speed through Cabra couldn't be lifted to 70mph its dead straight for about 1.8km with approaches at 30 mph no hassle accelerate to 70 cruise and brake in that distance that would chop lumps out of the time

[Mark]

Apart from the glaring mistakes in the use of Spencer Dock the one thing that I cant take is being treated like an idiot. The integration between the Docklands station at Sheriff Street and the proposed Luas red line is a 350m walk, there's no mistaking that.

A lot of our arguements could have been avoided if IE had come out from the start and said - We're sticking it here because we're building a station over there in the meantime. Yes we know its a walk, we apologise but we shall provide lighting, paving, signage etc. It will last for 10 years and then we will have proper integration.

I just dont like when IE thinks it can blindfold Joe Public. The sad thing is that it'll be a real eyeopener when people get off expecting the Luas in front of them.

Tell the truth Barry.

[Mark]

The location of our Docklands station, opening next year, will ensure easy interchange with the extended Luas Red Line and also allows services to continue operating while the underground Dart interconnector is constructed.

No Barry, its not easy. Its a 300m walk from Sheriff Street to the red line where you will find yourself equal distance from the nearest Luas stops. Oh and the Luas red line C1 is only starting through public enquiry now.

Finally, we are working closely with the RPA to ensure our services integrate closely at all interchange points on the network being funded by Transport 21, including interchanges between the Maynooth commuter line and Metro North and Metro West and between the underground Dart interconnector and the Metro, Luas Red and Luas Green Lines. - Yours, etc,

He ommitted integration at Kishogue between Kildare line and Metro West

[Thomas J Stamp]

Ah jaysus...............

There is already heavy interchange of customers between Dart and Commuter services at Connolly Station and the Luas Red Line Connolly terminus, where the distance between the Dart/Commuter platforms and the Luas stop is similar to that being presented as some sort of drastic obstacle to integration at Docklands.

For starters 99% of that journey is within the actual Connolly Station building. So, the reality is that the journey from Connolly station to LUAS is around 10m. Ditto for Heuston to LUAS.

There is a big difference bewteen walking from Sherriff Street Station to a LUAS stop (not even a terminus stop) and what Barry says above. It is akin to the walk from Bua Aras to Connolly Station. Would Barry Kenny say that Connolly Station and Bus Aras are integrated? No.

Next:

The location of our Docklands station, opening next year, will ensure easy interchange with the extended Luas Red Line and also allows services to continue operating while the underground Dart interconnector is constructed.

There is no interchange. It is the same as getting off a 40 bus in Parnell Street and walking to the 28 bus stop in Abbey Street. Thats not integrated either. Also, this station will only have a 10 year timespan, which Barry forgets to mention. This means that then interconnector will have to open by 2018 at the latest. As the interconnector isnt due to start untill 2015 I dont think it'll be done in three years, but Im sure the more technical lads can correct me on this.

The logical conclusion from the argument that integration is not being achieved between Iarnród Éireann and Railway Procurement Authority schemes under Transport 21, due to walking distances of up to 350 metres between modes, is that The logical conclusion from the argument that integration is not being achieved between Iarnród Éireann and Railway Procurement Authority schemes under Transport 21, due to walking distances of up to 350 metres between modes, is that integration between rail modes barely exists anywhere in the world.

When you have to get off a LUAS at ground level in Stephens Green, walk into an underground station and get onto another form of Transport which starts down the road it isnt intgrated. Using that Logic the fact that you can walk 100 metres or 100 kilometers between stations means they are intgrated, ie, they are all on the surface, or just beneath, of planet Earth. Sadly, Barry is not.

There is no intgration at Botanic Road. There is no intgration proposed at Drumconrda, as the midland line trains bypass the station. This is another fine example of non-integration of services totaly and compleatly within his companies controll.

It is misleading to state "is that integration between rail modes barely exists anywhere in the world" integration on the model defended by Barry barely exists anywhere in the world. Again, there is no integration needed in the examples he is using, as they are all within the same phyical locale. EG using a travelator to go from Teminals 1 to 4 in Heathrow isnt intgrated, its the same system. On that logic Platform 1 and 8 in Heuston are fully integrated.

The use of the Phoenix Park tunnel to Docklands for Kildare services would not add any capacity to the system, but would rather result in Kildare commuters taking longer to get to the city centre than they do currently

Oh come ON!!! Not only, as has been pointed out before, is Chav totaly overburnend because some fool never thought the damned thing would be popular, what with it being between the two biggest railway stations and only bus staion in the City and even though someone knew it and hid a third line in Heston for a laugh, but i love playing the game of next tram in 2 min getting stuck for 4 min, right after 3 min was there for 5. What's happening here, of course is Barry is saying that if you shove your DMU into Platform 1, wait while no-one gets out, then move it around the houses over to the tunnell (cos that's what'll happen) and then to connolly of course it'll take forever. Why not stop it at 10? Perhaps it's not intgrated enough.

This is just so bad, its enraging. I'm sure that Barry will be there at Sherrif Street, dressed as a clown, when it opens, telling those people who have to wealk in the rain to a small LUAS stop that it's intgrated.

But maybe he'll be on holidays that week.

[philip]

Originally Posted by Mark

Apart from the glaring mistakes in the use of Spencer Dock the one thing that I cant take is being treated like an idiot. The integration between the Docklands station at Sheriff Street and the proposed Luas red line is a 350m walk, there's no mistaking that.

A lot of our arguements could have been avoided if IE had come out from the start and said - We're sticking it here because we're building a station over there in the meantime. Yes we know its a walk, we apologise but we shall provide lighting, paving, signage etc. It will last for 10 years and then we will have proper integration.

I just dont like when IE thinks it can blindfold Joe Public. The sad thing is that it'll be a real eyeopener when people get off expecting the Luas in front of them.

Tell the truth Barry.

Totally agree with this Mark. Being treated like a silly child by Mr. Kenny is what's most infuriating. All this stuff he writes should come back to haunt him. Get writing that letter Mark!! Hang him out to dry. Why do the papers just print his lies??

[Colm Donoghue]

Mark G,
that Joe Meagher quote is dynamite! brilliant stuff.

Mark eile,
they should have come out and said about the temporary situation but are they gonna put in lighting/paving/shelter?

could the Luas enquiry direct the railway procurement "Lads" to build a temporary stop at the intersection with Spencer dock? Like is it within their power to do so not "Is it likely that that will hapen?"

[Mark]

Originally Posted by colmd

Mark eile,
they should have come out and said about the temporary situation but are they gonna put in lighting/paving/shelter?

No. The walk from the station to the red line shall be along the developers lands. However the area will, in time, de developed to include all that as the building continue and in accordance to the planning of the area.

Originally Posted by colmd

could the Luas enquiry direct the railway procurement "Lads" to build a temporary stop at the intersection with Spencer dock? Like is it within their power to do so not "Is it likely that that will hapen?"

Great point but I suspect it's a little too late. That sort of thing might not cost much in the general scheme of things. Timing is everything though and I suspect IE didnt consult the RPA on that at all.

[Colm Donoghue]

Cullen announced the Docklands station on 9th March.
Our submission re. luas lineC1 went in 20th Febuary, which I suppose was near the closing date for submissions. Was this delay a ploy by CIE/IE to distance themselves from the flak of a non integrated solution as is being proposed now?
So no one could submit to ensure there was a luas stop at the intersection of the two lines (in the euclidean sense of infinitely long lines, the train line would cross the tram line)

As Docklands station is not "Spencer dock station" would/Could the inspector disregard the submission regarding this?

[Mark Gleeson]

Well it wasn't till March 13th that DCC got the planning application, I didn't see it till a week or so later. It could be a cunning plan or it could be they just don't talk to each other and that looks the more plausible

[Colm Donoghue]

not to worry, I'm sure the good people in the DTA will have made an issue of this.....

I suppose I'll have to use Hanlon's razor in this.

[why_does_planning_suck]

i am not impressed by your arguments i am afraid. I had a look at the plans for the luas today and it is blindly obvious that there won't be any interchange. Did you raise this in your submission . if not, then as the only people talking any sense , you have let us down.

[Derek Wheeler]

MarkG and I are working on the response to Barry Kenny right now. Hopefully, it will make Thursdays edition of the Times.

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by why_does_planning_suck

you have let us down.

you are part of the solution too.. don't be too quick to knock

[why_does_planning_suck]

yes i would accept that. But you as a group are making it your business to represent the consumer in all matter rail. It is clear that it was obvious that the was no connection between the two routes. It remains doubtful that there will be a connection in the future.

If this had been raised at the planning application stage for the train station it might have changed things.

I assume that you will make a submission to the luas extension enquiry. You should ask for the tram stops to be moved. With this in mind there are two simple alterations that would not change the timetable for the luas. First move the spencer dock stop so that is lies over the future rail track. Or second remove both the mayor square stop and the spencer dock stop and replace them with a single stop just to the west of the canal , on mayor street. Then the tram stop would be very close to a possible train station underneath.

Continued support for this joke is not an option.

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by why_does_planning_suck

yes i would accept that. But you as a group are making it your business to represent the consumer in all matter rail.

No, you are talking to an ordinary 'board' user/member like yourself. And literally all of us on this board are operating from outside the 'rail' process and establishment, and yes at times that can involve putting the pieces together.

I think a fair way to describe Platform 11 is as a group that seeks to act in the interests of others that are similarly outside of the process and the railway planning establishment.

This board has no statuatory footing - it is comprised of interested parties and individuals.

Don't come to the party empty handed - bring something other than criticism.

[Mark Gleeson]

As has been pointed out the submission deadline for the Luas C1 inquiry was the 23rd Feb, plans for Spencer Dock were submitted to DCC 13th Mar

Moving the stop is not a valid option for two reasons.

1) It is then distant from the permanent underground station at Spencer Dock which will be carrying 4 times more people

2) The square at Spencer Dock is designed to allow for a stop to fit as has the traffic plan of the area, there is a bridge at the Mayor Street/Guild Street over the canal which has road traffic on its outer lanes

Objecting to the station as proposed is fruitless as no other option exists, it can't be moved to a more accessible location. In addition if permission was refused, the line to Pace and hence Navan would be on hold until post 2015, it a no win situation as any action to block the station will lead to more trouble elsewhere. And before someone says Broadstone thats no good either and its got nothing to do with the RPA its to do with a planning condition on the Hansfield SDZ.

The only issue we would love to disagree with is the track layout of the station but Iarnród Éireann are exempt from planning regulations in that matter and we have no recourse of appeal (and I have checked)

I've seen the blood drain out of the faces of senior Irish Rail mangers when they get caught out in Newbridge in March when the Spencer Dock Kildare question was posed they well know.

This is miles more complex than what the media make it out, and your simplistic approach is not helpful