[Article] Cullen signs off on Ennis Athenry

[Jister]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

QED

The commuting pattern question is important since the rail service has to match the demands of the area, the WRC people have a fantasy that people will do Claremorris Galway, unlikely, do we want to faciliate people in Tuam working in Galway or should the money go into suburbs in Galway which are badly served and where the population levels are such that it might work, last thing you want is Dublin style 30 mile+ commutes

We should not see too many Dublin style commutes because people can afford houses close to the business districts. OK people travel from West Clare to Galway, Limerick and Shannon everyday but thats by choice rather than not being able to afford a house with 10 miles of work.

I hope this is the beginning of piecemeal rail development and that we eventually see commuter stops around Limerick serving all the usual areas as mentioned many times before.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Jister

I hope this is the beginning of piecemeal rail development and that we eventually see commuter stops around Limerick serving all the usual areas as mentioned many times before.

That is being worked on right now, the biggest risk it the continuing once off housing policy

[Donal Quinn]

i was pretty suprised to see craughwell and ardrahan are getting stations

ardrahan has seen little of the celtic tiger a far as i know, maybe a few dozen houses, but craughwell has seen alot of building. the reason for that is that it is on the N6, so easy access to galway. it remains a hamlet though (lots of furniture stores though) and it seems really unlikely that many will get on a train to go the 8km NE to athenry only to change there for galway

maybe there is a potential for park and ride but if so surely it would be better to put a station in derrydonnell ( 6 miles closer to galway) and on the line between galway and athenry. i've ranted about this here before

[Jister]

Its funny how they are putting stations along a line just because it is new. There are plenty of places that I can think of that could justify a station better, Kilmallock in Limerick for example.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Jister

Its funny how they are putting stations along a line just because it is new. There are plenty of places that I can think of that could justify a station better, Kilmallock in Limerick for example.

Reopen Knocklong close enough more or less intact

[Jister]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Reopen Knocklong close enough more or less intact

What is wrong with Kilmallock station? A passenger special stopped there in the 1990's.

The thing is they have no intention of opening them but are hellbent on places like Ardrahan. Galway will have some amount of stations soon.

[Mark Gleeson]

Reason I mentioned Knocklong is since I have a photo of it from a few years back and it looks as if it looks almost as it was open it was that well kept then again the signal cabin was still manned at the time

A train stopped in or within sight of Kilmallock last Sunday, well broke down very close to the station

Hidden in the details for the WRC is 90m single platform, no problems with 90m but it should be 2 platforms or else the timetable will be a mess. It costs 3 to 4 times more for 2 platforms than 1 since you need a accessible bridge and complex electrics where as a 90m strip of tarmac is all you need for a single platform

[Jister]

If its 90m platforms that means 4 piece railcar maximum right?

[Mark Gleeson]

90m is good for 4 coach 20m train which is reasonable possibly a little overkill, I know Gort platform is more or less there so most likely they will raise it an fit new copping stones

The loops will be 300m+ in length though if they are serious about running anything on the line

[Jister]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

That is being worked on right now, the biggest risk it the continuing once off housing policy

Well, maybe not...

PDs promise to ease restrictions on one-off rural houses
29/09/2006 - 13:45:15



The Progressive Democrats are proposing reform the planning system to make it easier for people to build one-off houses in rural areas.

The party said today that people should have the right to build homes in the area where they live and work without unnecessary restrictions.

It says the planning systems adopted by some local authorities need to be changed and is proposing the creation of special boards to force planners to explain why certain applications are refused.

[TomB]

Please please someone point to a Galway County Council development plan where Craughwell and Ardrahan are earmarked for high-density housing and playgrounds, schools libraries etc. to bring them up to populations of 5-10,000 -- and that developer levies will be introduced to pay for the station construction.

Please please don't tell me that this govt. have decided to spend a huge dollop of cash building stations in areas where nobody asked for it (unlike poor Navan Junction who must be wondering is the only way for Navan to get a railway is to move the whole town west of the Shannon), where nobody will use it, and where there will be no incentive to introduce the planning necessary to make it anything but a waste of money.

I personally thought Gort was a pretty marginal case for a station, but Craughwell (pop 1351) and Ardrahan (pop 479)* really take the biscuit. Why can't we learn that 'front-loading' population density growth (translated as sticking a piece of infrastructure somewhere and crossing one's fingers) is a completely flawed concept in a country with a dysfunctional planning system such as ours?

I'm back off to France...


* 2006 census figures from http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/2...naryReport.pdf

[Thomas J Stamp]

Thomas, in six years time:

Craughwell = Rochfordbridge.

Swear to God.

All it takes is a material change of the CDP.

Its a case of "if it comes we will build it"

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

Thomas, in six years time:

Craughwell = Rochfordbridge.

Swear to God.

All it takes is a material change of the CDP.

Its a case of "if it comes we will build it"

But should we not be moving away from this kind of thinking. If we planned proper high density within city environs, places like Rochfordbridge or Craughwell, wouldn't need any form of major housing development within any counties development plan. Using Dublin as the obvious example. It was the construction of sprawling housing estates that caused car dependency and prevented any real penetration by public transport. The "dithering" over land rezoning caused a housing shortage and contributed to the mass exodus to more affordable areas in surrounding counties.(all working in Dublin) This trend continues even in light of high density development in Dublin. Why? Because the damage has been done by the creation of a false value within the housing market. People can't afford to move back now and public transport is struggling in a game of catch-up.

Craughwell doesn't need a station. It doesn't need housing estates. There is plenty of land within Galway city environs to build medium to high density, served by Bus and Rail and reduce car dependency. Look at it this way. If Craughwell is developed and a station provided, the train service won't suit everyone because its not intended to be a hi frequency and fast service and its a fixed route. Road congestion will increase regardless as the current road network is poor in these areas. Tuam is another example.Its the same old thinking that has us in the mess we're in.

There is a perception in this country that if you build a station next to the 5,000 houses you've knocked up, the transport problem is solved. I don't think so.

[Thomas J Stamp]

I dont think at all that either rochfordbridge or craughwell is a good thing, in fact its nothing short of a scandal, but its what will happen, if history is allowed to be repeated.

[TomB]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

Thomas, in six years time:

Craughwell = Rochfordbridge.

Swear to God.

Is that a good or a bad thing? [EDIT] sorry Thomas, didn't see your last post!

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

If we planned proper high density within city environs, places like Rochfordbridge or Craughwell, wouldn't need any form of major housing development within any counties development plan.

Absolutely, and Galway is a really sad example of how to plan a city in order to inflict misery on your children and children's children.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

If Craughwell is developed and a station provided, the train service won't suit everyone because its not intended to be a hi frequency and fast service and its a fixed route.

Come to think of it, I imagine the train service won't suit anyone, apart from the free travel heads.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

There is a perception in this country that if you build a station next to the 5,000 houses you've knocked up, the transport problem is solved. I don't think so.

True, but at least that would be better than building a train station next to the 50 houses you've knocked up.


Dammit, this is our money, and I'm sick of watching it being wasted away. And what's most annoying of all is that our money is being spent without us being told why. Where's the cost-benefit (be it financial, social or feng-shui) analysis? Has anyone even bothered to find out how many of the 479 citizens in the hamlet of Ardrahan would actually use the train? And if so, would someone like to enlighten us? At least €2m for the station, probably -- why not give every man, woman and child 4 grand each to spend on a nissan micra, a bicycle and a hornby train set?

[Thomas J Stamp]

Those 479 citizens in Ardrahan will soon be joined by an 800 unit housing development in a field.

They will find an early train very handy as it will be the only way to get their kids to school in Galway City (or perhaps Cabra) as there wont be one in the locality big enough for them.

[Derek Wheeler]

And the plummeting fall into the arse end of Irish politics continues unabated.

Sarcasm aside, its reassuring that some of us can actually see the sheer ineptitude of Government and opposition (both local and national) in this country. Two years ago, P11 was arguing about the virtues of the WRC. Now as we accept the Government policy to proceed with the better part of it (despite much publicised debate) on what is meant to be a new "intercity" route, we are faced with yet more stupidity in the form of proposed stations. Realistically, there is nothing beyond Ennis worthy of service on an inter city run from Limerick to Galway. Nor is there enough to justify local stopping services and express inter city services. We can't even implement this kind of working on the busier routes. The pro WRC arguments have been undone by this latest announcement of stations in Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell. If anyone wants to mention, potential development opportunities in these areas, then you are falling into the same trap that created the "GDR" (Greater Dublin Region) It has failed on a transport front, which is why current planning guidelines in Dublin are focused on High Density and Transport 21 is geared towards providing solutions to service it. We call this "catch up"

The concept of "balanced regional development" by funding the WRC is a recipe for emulating the mistakes made in the east. The proposed stations in the first phase, look very much like candidates for "local development". Its wrong, outdated, lazy, dangerous and retrograde thinking. Developers will see these stations as a green light to create yet more sprawl, while land banks around Galway city and Limerick city will lie redundant. WOT said a while back that they didn't want to see the problems of the east exported to the west. Well now its wake up time, because the simple matter of stations in Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell, not to mention Athenry have the potential (and vindicated potential) to create such a scenario.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Again, cynicism aside, we have to be careful that we dont simply see the rise of dormitory towns for Galway a-la Nass Newbridge Kildare Monasterevin Portarlington and Portlaoise for Dublin.

I fear that will not happen. WOT have done a fine campaign so far, they have their baby, it will soon be born. However, that baby has to be nurtured, it has to be cared for and it has to be thought responsibilities because if it isnt it'll run around wild and without limitiations and will cause all sorts of social problems for generations to come.

WOT have, if you like, done the job on the Saturday night all the wooing and the chat up lines and the hard work. Now its Sunday morning, there's a a bit of a hangover and it all comes back to you. Oh-oh. WOT is now waiting to see what comes of the Saturday night out, and when it comes we all hope that WOT wont walk away and start calling for paternity tests and disputing maintenance payments.

As for P11? We'll fulfill the role of social workers.

[Derek Wheeler]

While browsing the web I found this from the Galway Advertiser. It looks like somebody wants to lead the new baby astray already. Social services should keep an eye on this.

The announcement has been welcomed by Dep Joe Callanan, who said the line would be a major economic asset for east and south Galway.

“Through my role in the Business and Small Enterprise Committee I hope to encourage development of industry along the rail line,” Dep Callanan said. “I also note with interest proposals to develop affordable housing at stations along the line and this to me offers a very good opportunity to develop housing aimed at young people in conjunction with a major public transport infrastructure.

[ccos]

just because a minister has announced something doesn't mean its set in stone (just ask Navan Junction)

As to the merits of Ennis to Athenry I don't think there is much argument against its reopening, I think this section is been tarred with the same brush as parts of the WRC furthur north, but if looked at on its own who can say its a bad idea to open a section of railway linking the 2'nd and 3'rd largest cities with the 4'th largest (hope thats still right haven't looked at the last census figures).
As to the success or failure that depends a lot on how its reopened. so I think now its time for P11 to get involved in the planning process to make sure its reopened properly eg with as Mark mentioned earlier with sufficent dynamic passing loops, adequete rolling stock, a well planned timetable, the list goes on

As to proposed stations A and C. I think P11 should do a lot of work to
prevent their reopening and I think a lot of unlikely allies can be found, has anyone asked IE do they want them? look at the trouble they have with attymon and woodlawn, will the powers that be in Gort want, two little whippersnappers taking away from Gorts importance as a railway centre? will the councils of Limerick or Galway want these halts, slowing down their new prize intercity route? Even the ever popular WOT will have to seriously think about anything that affects the viabilaty of this section, afterall the future reopenings of their little monster hinge on the viability of this section.
Even some of Nigel Fitzgricers mates on IRN don't understand the logic of A and C being included in the plan. And has anybodyasked the good people in theFinance Dept their take on this yet.
This is a fight P11 can and should win.

P11 has already said it will represent the unfortunate passengers on this route, so isn't it the best time to fight their corner now during what will be a long planning process and make sure that another rail route isn't a disaster from birth.