Four-Car DART in evening peak ? - Page 2

James Howard · 02-08-2012, 12:38

Whatever happened to the promise about all services long than 1 hour getting 22Ks? It is idiotic to see 29ks being used for Longford runs when they are using 22ks on Maynooth services.

The outer commuter services really need a bit of a re-think. Two of the three early Longford services are currently served by 29Ks as is a pointless 9PM positioning service. Currently these have to be 29Ks as they do double-duty as Maynooth services and stop everywhere.

It would make the service from Longford and Mullingar a lot more attractive if they could find a way to run these as 22Ks and have them express between Maynooth and Drumcondra (Possibly with a stop at Clonsilla). The could also get away with shorter trains if they were to do this.

The Longford service currently ties up 12 29k cars (plus 6 22Ks for the early morning Sligo train which is really a commuter service). They could probably get this down to 6 22k cars if they went with having the services express to/from Maynooth - although at a guess the later train would probably need 6 cars as a 7:30 express from Maynooth would probably be very popular with Maynooth commuters.

karlr42 · 02-08-2012, 14:27

That's certainly my feeling, anything going to or from west of Maynooth should skip out the inner stations that have a more frequent service, like Drogheda and Rosslare services skip out DART stations. The problem I'm sure is signalling and congestion, so this probably won't happen unless the DARTification of the Maynooth line goes ahead.

James Howard · 02-08-2012, 18:31

It almost certainly wouldn't work in the evening as the timings on the Sligo line are too reliable in the evening. But in the morning, it should be relatively feasible to have a stopping train leave Maynooth 5 minutes after an express which would then just about catch the previous stopping train by the time it got as far as Drumcondra.

karlr42 · 03-10-2012, 18:56

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking49.html

Use of 4cars set to continue. I don't really have a problem with this, I saw plenty of them today in the peak and they looked busy, not crush-laden, but if this to become a permanent thing Irish Rail need to start looking at 'innovations' like stop markers to help speed up boarding at places like Tara St and Pearse southbound and Connolly p7 northbound.

Eddie · 03-10-2012, 19:50

What's frustrating is having 6-cars in the evening (when presumably there's no-one to decouple the carriages) but 4-cars during the peak.

If they have to have smaller trains, at least exhaust the off-peak possibilities first.

shweeney · 04-10-2012, 11:15

1800 southbound from Pearse to Greystones was a 4 carriage last night. OK, it wasn't quite Japanese levels of crush, but the Greystones trains always have a few extra people on them, I didn't get a seat until Bray.

Standing for 10-15 minutes is fine, 40 minutes is pushing it (and genuinely will persuade potential passengers to drive instead). Irish Rails solution to falling passenger numbers and revenue is to raise prices, reduce frequency and make the service less comfortable - I'd like to know which business school they attended. (& how much do they save by running shorter trains anyway?)

Inniskeen · 04-10-2012, 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlr42

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking49.html

Use of 4cars set to continue. I don't really have a problem with this, I saw plenty of them today in the peak and they looked busy, not crush-laden, but if this to become a permanent thing Irish Rail need to start looking at 'innovations' like stop markers to help speed up boarding at places like Tara St and Pearse southbound and Connolly p7 northbound.

During a short period at Pearse from 1725 to 1745 on Tuesday last, I saw three 8-car 8100 sets two northbound, one southbound. Each of these services had about 250 passengers each. Substitute a low seating density 4-car 8600 and there is an outcry as a significant proportion of passengers have to stand. Also people are less than impressed to find virtually empty 8-car 8600s rattling around on late evening services when Irish Rail are spinning that four-car trains are necessary at peak periods as a cost saving measure. What cost are bing avoided ? If energy costs are being targeted then 8-car trains should only appear on workings directly associated with the peak period with sets being reduced to two or four-car units at the earliest opportunity thereafter. This is clearly not what Irish Rail are doing - so what is actually going on ? Are sets being mothballed ? prepared for sale ?

Incidentally there were two northbound commuter services formed by 8-car 2900s during this period, both of which had about 600 passngers departing Pearse.

dowlingm · 04-10-2012, 13:03

It's a bit of a catch 22 - if you avoid energy costs by right-sizing the train to the time of day you add the costs involved with pulling the trains into the yard and assembling/splitting the consists.

Colm Moore · 04-10-2012, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by dowlingm

It's a bit of a catch 22 - if you avoid energy costs by right-sizing the train to the time of day you add the costs involved with pulling the trains into the yard and assembling/splitting the consists.

But the already have a mix of 4/6/8 car trains, no need to assemble/split, just move from siding to platform.

Mark Gleeson · 04-10-2012, 13:35

Split operation takes no more than 3 minutes, if you allow for the walking and standing around

A join operation is 30 seconds.

Unlike the UK Irish Rail's don't have go through crazy computer restarts to couple up, its more like couple and go

Eddie · 04-10-2012, 22:50

I was on a peak hour 4-carriage dart this evening heading out of town. It was close to resembling a peak hour tube train in London.

Normally I'm lucky enough to be travelling in the opposite direction to the masses.

One of the things that used to really appeal to me about Dublin was its lack of rush hour train crushes.

Exactly what is the saving associated with reducing a dart by each set of two carriages per journey?

Jamie2k9 · 05-10-2012, 01:37

Why are people still making such issues over this, Dublin Bus and Luas are always crammed during rush hour so why do people expect to have a seat on a dart or not have to stand for short period of time. People have to stand on Intercity services which should not happen but it does. You are traveling on a urban train they are meant to be packed. Any yes I use the Dart every 2 days during rush hour and I have to stand even though its not ideal its no different to the bus or luas.

Do people from Maynooth, Dundalk, Wexford, Kildare etc have constant rants about standing....

Inniskeen I also saw a few darts on Wednesday evening. A mix of 4,6,8 sets and TBH most were fine. The 4 car sets were a little cramped which is normal but in general everything seemed ok.

Time for people to deal with it as its not going to change anytime soon so no point in ranting about it.

essoII · 05-10-2012, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

Why are people still making such issues over this

It just seems illogical to run 4 carriage rush hour DARTs and (as I observed last night on 10.30pm Pearse-Greystones DART) 8 carriage off peak DARTs if it is being hailed as a cost saving measure.

Inniskeen · 05-10-2012, 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by essoII

It just seems illogical to run 4 carriage rush hour DARTs and (as I observed last night on 10.30pm Pearse-Greystones DART) 8 carriage off peak DARTs if it is being hailed as a cost saving measure.

Either Irish Rail are not telling the truth about this issue or are utterly incapable of implementing their own policy. First thing to be cut in size should be unnecessary 6, 8 and even 4 car off peak services. The only over sized off peak services should be those that have either just formed a peak service or are just about to form a peak service.

karlr42 · 05-10-2012, 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

Why are people still making such issues over this, Dublin Bus and Luas are always crammed during rush hour so why do people expect to have a seat on a dart or not have to stand for short period of time.

Because the capacity and ability is there for people not to have to stand, it's just not being used. I understand it's normal to stand on a rush hour commute across the world, but usually that's because the system is running to capacity, all trains are being used, the sidings and depots are empty except for units under maintenance- but regardless the amount of people demanding service means that there is still crush condition. Here we are artificially imposing crush on ourselves when there is no need, there is spare capacity in the form of extra carriages that is just not being used. That's not acceptable.

shweeney · 05-10-2012, 15:05

Irish rail spent a lot of (our) money buying new trains, refurbishing the old ones so they could run in 8 car sets, extending platforms etc.

I appreciate that passenger numbers may have dropped (though I'd debate by how much, many of the industries hit by the recession would not have contributed much to the DART numbers, & there's still plenty of students and schoolkids). I don't mind standing for a bit, and if they genuinely had no additional capacity available I'd accept it, but its a bit galling to find yourself jammed into someone's armpit for half an hour when you know they have carriages sitting around Fairview doing nothing.

Jamie2k9 · 05-10-2012, 21:25

Quote:

I appreciate that passenger numbers may have dropped (though I'd debate by how much, many of the industries hit by the recession would not have contributed much to the DART numbers, & there's still plenty of students and schoolkids). I don't mind standing for a bit, and if they genuinely had no additional capacity available I'd accept it, but its a bit galling to find yourself jammed into someone's armpit for half an hour when you know they have carriages sitting around Fairview doing nothing.

So lets say around 440,000 unemployed I estimate at least 150,000 around Dublin area if only 20,000 used to use IR servces then I would say its quiet a drop.

Thousands leaving the cournty monthly. Many non Irish nationals have left and most only used public transport.

Transport has being hit most during the downturn. Take avation Dublin Airport has lost 5 million passengers since the peak in 2008 why is because people are not travling and the same applies to trains, buse.

I don't have any sort of figues but from what I saw on Wednesday I would like to know how 8 car sets were justified for so long.

Quote:

prepared for sale ?

Lets get real they are not going to be sold as nobody would want to buy them.

And for people giving out about standing for 15-30 minutes then you need to use trains on Waterford line everymorning. Passengers standing for 60-70 minutes and there is lots of capacity that could be added but its not.

essoII · 06-10-2012, 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

So lets say around 440,000 unemployed I estimate at least 150,000 around Dublin area if only 20,000 used to use IR servces then I would say its quiet a drop.

Thousands leaving the cournty monthly. Many non Irish nationals have left and most only used public transport.

Transport has being hit most during the downturn. Take avation Dublin Airport has lost 5 million passengers since the peak in 2008 why is because people are not travling and the same applies to trains, buse.

I don't have any sort of figues but from what I saw on Wednesday I would like to know how 8 car sets were justified for so long.

Lets get real they are not going to be sold as nobody would want to buy them.

And for people giving out about standing for 15-30 minutes then you need to use trains on Waterford line everymorning. Passengers standing for 60-70 minutes and there is lots of capacity that could be added but its not.

What's the basis of your point? There are still 8 carriage DARTs running off peak hours that have not been formed for the purpose of entering a scheduled peak service time.

Originally Irishrail stated the 4 carriage DARTs were used for peak services during summer months when no colleges or schools were on. With the new school/college term initiated over a month ago, there has not been no response in terms of carriage numbers for peak hour services to the increased demand.

Either Irishrail management are completely incompetent or there is something they are not telling us.

Jamie2k9 · 06-10-2012, 21:18

Quote:

I appreciate that passenger numbers may have dropped (though I'd debate by how much

From the 2030 report:

2011 - 15.9 million
2010 - 16.8 milliom
2009 - 17.5 million

Has the above trend contuined into 2012?

Quote:

What's the basis of your point? There are still 8 carriage DARTs running off peak hours that have not been formed for the purpose of entering a scheduled peak service time.

Only reason I picked Carlow/Waterford route was because I use it a lot and see it and I am guessing that passengers pay much more for tickets and they have to stand compared to Dart passengers.

Thomas Ralph · 06-10-2012, 21:37

The problem with 4-car trains (and which would be worse again with 2-cars) is that people stand all over the platform and get no indication until the train pulls in of (a) where the train will stop or (b) how long it is. This means higher dwell time while the train waits for everyone to get on.

Over here the PIS tells you how many coaches there are and there are stop boards which tell you where a train of a given length will stop.

04-10-2012, 13:35	#30
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Split operation takes no more than 3 minutes, if you allow for the walking and standing around A join operation is 30 seconds. Unlike the UK Irish Rail's don't have go through crazy computer restarts to couple up, its more like couple and go __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

05-10-2012, 01:37	#32
Jamie2k9 Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,146	Why are people still making such issues over this, Dublin Bus and Luas are always crammed during rush hour so why do people expect to have a seat on a dart or not have to stand for short period of time. People have to stand on Intercity services which should not happen but it does. You are traveling on a urban train they are meant to be packed. Any yes I use the Dart every 2 days during rush hour and I have to stand even though its not ideal its no different to the bus or luas. Do people from Maynooth, Dundalk, Wexford, Kildare etc have constant rants about standing.... Inniskeen I also saw a few darts on Wednesday evening. A mix of 4,6,8 sets and TBH most were fine. The 4 car sets were a little cramped which is normal but in general everything seemed ok. Time for people to deal with it as its not going to change anytime soon so no point in ranting about it. Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 05-10-2012 at 01:39.

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02-08-2012, 12:38	#21
James Howard Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sligo Line Posts: 1,115	Whatever happened to the promise about all services long than 1 hour getting 22Ks? It is idiotic to see 29ks being used for Longford runs when they are using 22ks on Maynooth services. The outer commuter services really need a bit of a re-think. Two of the three early Longford services are currently served by 29Ks as is a pointless 9PM positioning service. Currently these have to be 29Ks as they do double-duty as Maynooth services and stop everywhere. It would make the service from Longford and Mullingar a lot more attractive if they could find a way to run these as 22Ks and have them express between Maynooth and Drumcondra (Possibly with a stop at Clonsilla). The could also get away with shorter trains if they were to do this. The Longford service currently ties up 12 29k cars (plus 6 22Ks for the early morning Sligo train which is really a commuter service). They could probably get this down to 6 22k cars if they went with having the services express to/from Maynooth - although at a guess the later train would probably need 6 cars as a 7:30 express from Maynooth would probably be very popular with Maynooth commuters.

02-08-2012, 14:27	#22
karlr42 Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Clonsilla Posts: 340	That's certainly my feeling, anything going to or from west of Maynooth should skip out the inner stations that have a more frequent service, like Drogheda and Rosslare services skip out DART stations. The problem I'm sure is signalling and congestion, so this probably won't happen unless the DARTification of the Maynooth line goes ahead.

02-08-2012, 18:31	#23
James Howard Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sligo Line Posts: 1,115	It almost certainly wouldn't work in the evening as the timings on the Sligo line are too reliable in the evening. But in the morning, it should be relatively feasible to have a stopping train leave Maynooth 5 minutes after an express which would then just about catch the previous stopping train by the time it got as far as Drumcondra.

03-10-2012, 18:56	#24
karlr42 Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Clonsilla Posts: 340	http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking49.html Use of 4cars set to continue. I don't really have a problem with this, I saw plenty of them today in the peak and they looked busy, not crush-laden, but if this to become a permanent thing Irish Rail need to start looking at 'innovations' like stop markers to help speed up boarding at places like Tara St and Pearse southbound and Connolly p7 northbound.

03-10-2012, 19:50	#25
Eddie Really Regular Poster Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 258	What's frustrating is having 6-cars in the evening (when presumably there's no-one to decouple the carriages) but 4-cars during the peak. If they have to have smaller trains, at least exhaust the off-peak possibilities first.

04-10-2012, 11:15	#26
shweeney Regular Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 180	1800 southbound from Pearse to Greystones was a 4 carriage last night. OK, it wasn't quite Japanese levels of crush, but the Greystones trains always have a few extra people on them, I didn't get a seat until Bray. Standing for 10-15 minutes is fine, 40 minutes is pushing it (and genuinely will persuade potential passengers to drive instead). Irish Rails solution to falling passenger numbers and revenue is to raise prices, reduce frequency and make the service less comfortable - I'd like to know which business school they attended. (& how much do they save by running shorter trains anyway?)

04-10-2012, 13:03	#28
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	It's a bit of a catch 22 - if you avoid energy costs by right-sizing the train to the time of day you add the costs involved with pulling the trains into the yard and assembling/splitting the consists.

04-10-2012, 22:50	#31
Eddie Really Regular Poster Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 258	I was on a peak hour 4-carriage dart this evening heading out of town. It was close to resembling a peak hour tube train in London. Normally I'm lucky enough to be travelling in the opposite direction to the masses. One of the things that used to really appeal to me about Dublin was its lack of rush hour train crushes. Exactly what is the saving associated with reducing a dart by each set of two carriages per journey?

05-10-2012, 15:05	#36
shweeney Regular Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 180	Irish rail spent a lot of (our) money buying new trains, refurbishing the old ones so they could run in 8 car sets, extending platforms etc. I appreciate that passenger numbers may have dropped (though I'd debate by how much, many of the industries hit by the recession would not have contributed much to the DART numbers, & there's still plenty of students and schoolkids). I don't mind standing for a bit, and if they genuinely had no additional capacity available I'd accept it, but its a bit galling to find yourself jammed into someone's armpit for half an hour when you know they have carriages sitting around Fairview doing nothing.

06-10-2012, 21:37	#40
Thomas Ralph IT Officer Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greenwich, London Posts: 1,860	The problem with 4-car trains (and which would be worse again with 2-cars) is that people stand all over the platform and get no indication until the train pulls in of (a) where the train will stop or (b) how long it is. This means higher dwell time while the train waits for everyone to get on. Over here the PIS tells you how many coaches there are and there are stop boards which tell you where a train of a given length will stop.