CDE Cork Dublin Express train to enter service - Page 2

kilman · 17-02-2006, 17:04

There is a good chance you'll see at least one in Inchicore on any day.Its when there actually leaving Heuston or Kent that I want to see.

PaulM · 17-02-2006, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilman

There is a good chance you'll see at least one in Inchicore on any day.Its when there actually leaving Heuston or Kent that I want to see.

I've seen a 3 different one (I think) definitely 2. I'd just like to know what they are like.

MrX · 18-02-2006, 16:04

There was one sitting in the siding at Limerick Junction at about 11pm last night anyway as we passed in a MK3 to Cork.

I haven't seen one at Kent yet at all.

Any idea when these test in-service runs will actually commence or what trains are going to be CDE operated rather than MK3. Wouldn't mind trying one out.

James Shields · 18-02-2006, 16:43

Quote:

Wouldn't mind trying one out.

I don't think any of us would.

I expect that the first few passenger runs will be low-demand services so that there won't be too much impact if anything goes wrong. They'll be snuck in with no fanfare whatsoever. For all I know, this may have happened already. I imagine they will gradually be taking over from the Mk3s, so that by the time they are officially launched they will already be in use on most services.

sean · 18-02-2006, 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostcarpark

I don't think any of us would.

I expect that the first few passenger runs will be low-demand services so that there won't be too much impact if anything goes wrong. They'll be snuck in with no fanfare whatsoever. For all I know, this may have happened already. I imagine they will gradually be taking over from the Mk3s, so that by the time they are officially launched they will already be in use on most services.

The trains look nice.

But I have a real worry that the Cork users will end up with a raw deal.

I am of the impression that CAF don't know how to do suspensions right, at least not for Ireland. Everything else on the IE network seems to have relatively simple suspensions that work, whereas, if the 29ks are anything to go by, the CAFs are overly complex and suck.

What I think we need now are clear answers to 2 questions.

1: What is the condition of Dublin-Cork track and earthworks vis-a-vis that of Dublin-Longford/Sligo?

2: Is the suspension on the CAF CDE more stable than those of the CAF 29K?

MrX · 19-02-2006, 15:13

It's hard to know how the suspensions will be as we have absolutely no experience of CAF high speed rolling stock to go by. I would assume that the suspension system on a 125mph capable heavy coach would be substantially different to that of a commuter train. Afterall, IE have the 29K doing things that it was clearly never designed for. The suspensions are also probabally complicated by the fact that there are motorbogies involved. The CDE won't have any of that to cope with. They're just regular 125mph bogies. I've been on CAF stock in Spain running at 200kmph and it's been quite comfortable and I don't think the spanish network's necessarily all that smooth either. I've had trips from Barcelona to Madrid on older stock where you could order a plain coffee and the shaking would give you cappuccino. The newer stock was nice though. Smooth, well air conditioned, comfortable and fast.

The enterprise is suffering from the same problems that some of the Eurostar stuff that has been used by GNER has. It's expecting to be on LGV (Ligne Grande Vitesse) the ultra smooth lines the TGV runs on. Apparently GNER's eurostars can get a bit bumpy when running on battered UK mainlines. Hopefully, the CDE won't have this issue.

It's also a 125mph Push-Pull set up which means it will possibly have to be quite stable in push-mode. It also means the coaches are probabally quite heavy ... i.e. heavy enough not to jump off the rails if pushed.

I'd like to see the exact specs for these coaches as length and weight will have huge impacts on stability. Part of the reason that European coaches are so smooth is that they're way heavier and longer.

The Cork-Dublin line certainly has the odd bumpy bit. I don't know how it compares to other lines on the network, but even in the MK3s you do occasionally get the odd bit of shuddering. Although that being said, it's a lot nicer than a bus trip. At least you can actually leave a coffee on the table and have it stay there without a lid.

My tests would be :

1) can you leave a coffee on the table and not have it land on your lap and
2) can you comfortably type / work on a laptop.

If the CDE can do both of those... it'll be quite acceptable.

The MK3 is being given a little too much worshiping on this site to be quite honest. I have never found them to be a very comfortable coach by european standards. They're not all that smooth and the seating's horrible. There are FAR nicer intercity coaches around.

If these caf coaches are sufficiently heavy, have their centre of gravity in the right spot and can cope with a few bumps they'll be fine trains.

I am not going to be overly pesimistic about these coaches until I actually end up with heinekin all over my lap!

They look nice, they'll be an excellent marketing tool and they'll attract a lot of people back to rail again.

The current MK3 fleet is OK but it's knocking on and starting to look a bit tatty (nothing that a very minor refurb wouldn't fix). A new pointy silvery-green train will impress the punters big time! It's just like soap powder marketing.. New All improved Ariel Ultra verus good old fashioned Ariel.. even if they're identical in everyway the new one will have the flashy branding and the fancy packaging. People go for that kinda thing!

Once CAF update their website we'll see exactly what the specs are.

We need to compare like with like though. Don't critique the CDE while looking at the MK3 via orange tinted glasses that over look the odd bump here and there. Yes, the MK3 has better suspension than any of the other stock on the network but it's not THAT smooth.

Also, if I am informed correctly, BREL Mark 3 coaches had quite complex suspension. It's not exactly what you would describe as simple stuff. The MK2 and Craven units certainly have simple suspensions which is why they're so springy.

Finally remember that the CAF railcars are spec'd for commuter running which also means that they can skimp on comfort for the sake of cost. They're not an intercity product and really should be compared with the LHB, Mitsui and Alstom EMU (Dart) and DMU stock that's on the commuter network and not with the heavy MK3 BREL coaches or even their MK2 and cravens predecessors.

It's a bit like trying to compare a double decker bus to a luxury coach. They've very different functions and very different levels of comfort and suspensions.

However, it's perfectly fair and reasonable to put the Enteprise up against a MK3. They're supposed to be equivilants. However, don't forget most passengers are actually quite impressed by the Enterprise and don't really moan about the bumps. Their main quibble is the lack of frequency and reliability which comes down to a business decision by IE and NIR not to buy enough of them in the first place!

Mark Gleeson · 20-02-2006, 00:18

The MK3 is the accepted benchmark for a intercity train. I've never said it was perfect but the ride is good and it gets better the faster you go. There are bumps you get on a 2900 you just don't notice in a MK3. I've got a list of all the bumps from Dublin to Thurles so a almost scientific comparision is on

The laptop comes with me everywhere I go, I've written pages of a thesis in MK3 coach on Sundays along with the crisps and beer and to be honest there are certain places you stop typing as you know its too rough. Ride is a subjective thing and has all kinds of jargon

Basic things like legroom and seat spacing count for a lot, larger enough tables, seats which line up with windows thats what the passengers want. Will the PA volume be right ?

We just don't know yet and we look forward to trying it out

MrX · 21-02-2006, 17:23

Ah don't worry the lads will get the PA totally screwed up... You wouldn't want the customers knowing where they were or anything like that. The PA mic will be dunked into a pot of tea before every announcement as has been the tradition on all IE trains for decades.

Red Alert · 24-02-2006, 22:20

I always find the PA nice and loud on the Mk3's and in fairness to IE, the Air Conditioning does in fact work compared to Mk3 sets I've been on in Britain. It held it at ~15C on a roasting 25C day in the summer.

Why did IE buy new engines for the cork sets? Could they not have used the GE ones?

Mark Gleeson · 24-02-2006, 22:46

They haven't bought any they repainted the 1994 batch

Kevin K Kelehan · 25-02-2006, 16:20

How long have these trains been hanging around for now?

It is not that they are even that great; a bit of a Voyager as opposed to a Pendolino if you ask me and there is a huge difference on the inside in terms of comfort and train times. London Coventry yesterday in 48 minutes

MrX · 26-02-2006, 03:09

There are a few things to note about the Irish MK3s that differenciate them from their British cousins apart from the automatic doors on the irish fleet.

CIE ran everything using 220/380V 50Hz 3-phase (same as the power supplied to any Irish or European building).. this gave them a lot more scope for add-on equipment and is generally easier to work with.

The heating system is different and the air con units aren't quite the same either due to the power supply differences.

It's also worth noting that the IE MK3 fleet is substantially younger than the MK3s commonly found in the UK.
CIE's fleet dates from 1984 onwards, much of it is younger than the LHB Darts.
By the 1980s the BREL air conditioning systems had improved a tad!

I have no idea who makes the air con kit on IE's fleet, but I would agree it generally does work. The coach-end doors being open at either end can render it much less effective though.

Kevin K Kelehan · 27-02-2006, 18:45

Mr X I'm talking about Pendolinos and Voyagers not Mark 3 or BREL which now only operate as spares or on the Eastern and South Western lines.

freeluas · 01-03-2006, 23:59

So as of March 1st, theres no show of the new trains? Anyone got some information.

Mark Gleeson · 02-03-2006, 00:20

I came within 10 seconds of nabbing the guy in charge today to ask, damn

We have a date, time and platform number but it has not been confirmed

Once we have a confirmation we will post full details

Mark Gleeson · 06-03-2006, 11:15

Contrary to reports elsewhere indicating the CDE set going into service on the 9am to Cork this morning it did not

Thomas J Stamp · 13-03-2006, 12:09

On Irish Railway News a poster is reporting that the reasons why the cde isnt in service is down to:

1. Problems with doors.

and

2. UNION TROUBLE!!! Oh yes, yahoo!! IE want to have a super-guard who will do ticketing duties (so combining two jobs into one?) and this is presenting a challenge to the harmonious running of staff/managment relations.

Oh, and the ride quality is supposed to be poorer than the mk3's as well.

Mark Gleeson · 13-03-2006, 12:22

The train manager issue was pointed out to us in November, its not major per say the train can go into service without a resolution. The current situation is farcical as the bulk of ticket checkers have guards certificates anyway and with the increase in service levels there won't be anyone out of a job. It is in theory possible to operate a CDE set driver only if its driven from the control car

The ride is a bit iffy we knew that, we just don't know how iffy. The MK3 ride is unusual its hard to pin down why it is good as it shouldn't be. Its not that much better than a good MK2 (yes I've been on a IE MK2 at 90mph). It is miles better than the enterprise coaches

Doors are always a problem and are the number one item on the list normally of issues, the issues can be to do with how they operate under fault conditions. A defective MK3 door will actually open itself when a train comes to a halt

James Shields · 13-03-2006, 13:51

Reminds me of a carry on movie... about loos!

Thomas J Stamp · 13-03-2006, 15:24

Carry on at your conveniance? A factory run by a Mr Crapper? I liked that one.

What was the film starring Peter Sellars? I'm all right Jack?

19-02-2006, 15:13	#26
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	It's a case of wait and see / feel. It's hard to know how the suspensions will be as we have absolutely no experience of CAF high speed rolling stock to go by. I would assume that the suspension system on a 125mph capable heavy coach would be substantially different to that of a commuter train. Afterall, IE have the 29K doing things that it was clearly never designed for. The suspensions are also probabally complicated by the fact that there are motorbogies involved. The CDE won't have any of that to cope with. They're just regular 125mph bogies. I've been on CAF stock in Spain running at 200kmph and it's been quite comfortable and I don't think the spanish network's necessarily all that smooth either. I've had trips from Barcelona to Madrid on older stock where you could order a plain coffee and the shaking would give you cappuccino. The newer stock was nice though. Smooth, well air conditioned, comfortable and fast. The enterprise is suffering from the same problems that some of the Eurostar stuff that has been used by GNER has. It's expecting to be on LGV (Ligne Grande Vitesse) the ultra smooth lines the TGV runs on. Apparently GNER's eurostars can get a bit bumpy when running on battered UK mainlines. Hopefully, the CDE won't have this issue. It's also a 125mph Push-Pull set up which means it will possibly have to be quite stable in push-mode. It also means the coaches are probabally quite heavy ... i.e. heavy enough not to jump off the rails if pushed. I'd like to see the exact specs for these coaches as length and weight will have huge impacts on stability. Part of the reason that European coaches are so smooth is that they're way heavier and longer. The Cork-Dublin line certainly has the odd bumpy bit. I don't know how it compares to other lines on the network, but even in the MK3s you do occasionally get the odd bit of shuddering. Although that being said, it's a lot nicer than a bus trip. At least you can actually leave a coffee on the table and have it stay there without a lid. My tests would be : 1) can you leave a coffee on the table and not have it land on your lap and 2) can you comfortably type / work on a laptop. If the CDE can do both of those... it'll be quite acceptable. The MK3 is being given a little too much worshiping on this site to be quite honest. I have never found them to be a very comfortable coach by european standards. They're not all that smooth and the seating's horrible. There are FAR nicer intercity coaches around. If these caf coaches are sufficiently heavy, have their centre of gravity in the right spot and can cope with a few bumps they'll be fine trains. I am not going to be overly pesimistic about these coaches until I actually end up with heinekin all over my lap! They look nice, they'll be an excellent marketing tool and they'll attract a lot of people back to rail again. The current MK3 fleet is OK but it's knocking on and starting to look a bit tatty (nothing that a very minor refurb wouldn't fix). A new pointy silvery-green train will impress the punters big time! It's just like soap powder marketing.. New All improved Ariel Ultra verus good old fashioned Ariel.. even if they're identical in everyway the new one will have the flashy branding and the fancy packaging. People go for that kinda thing! Once CAF update their website we'll see exactly what the specs are. We need to compare like with like though. Don't critique the CDE while looking at the MK3 via orange tinted glasses that over look the odd bump here and there. Yes, the MK3 has better suspension than any of the other stock on the network but it's not THAT smooth. Also, if I am informed correctly, BREL Mark 3 coaches had quite complex suspension. It's not exactly what you would describe as simple stuff. The MK2 and Craven units certainly have simple suspensions which is why they're so springy. Finally remember that the CAF railcars are spec'd for commuter running which also means that they can skimp on comfort for the sake of cost. They're not an intercity product and really should be compared with the LHB, Mitsui and Alstom EMU (Dart) and DMU stock that's on the commuter network and not with the heavy MK3 BREL coaches or even their MK2 and cravens predecessors. It's a bit like trying to compare a double decker bus to a luxury coach. They've very different functions and very different levels of comfort and suspensions. However, it's perfectly fair and reasonable to put the Enteprise up against a MK3. They're supposed to be equivilants. However, don't forget most passengers are actually quite impressed by the Enterprise and don't really moan about the bumps. Their main quibble is the lack of frequency and reliability which comes down to a business decision by IE and NIR not to buy enough of them in the first place! Last edited by MrX : 19-02-2006 at 15:27.

01-03-2006, 23:59	#34
freeluas New to the board Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 11	Still no sign of the new trains So as of March 1st, theres no show of the new trains? Anyone got some information.

13-03-2006, 12:09	#37
Thomas J Stamp Chairman/Publicity Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Home of Hurling Posts: 2,708	Read this elsewhere On Irish Railway News a poster is reporting that the reasons why the cde isnt in service is down to: 1. Problems with doors. and 2. UNION TROUBLE!!! Oh yes, yahoo!! IE want to have a super-guard who will do ticketing duties (so combining two jobs into one?) and this is presenting a challenge to the harmonious running of staff/managment relations. Oh, and the ride quality is supposed to be poorer than the mk3's as well.

13-03-2006, 12:22	#38
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The train manager issue was pointed out to us in November, its not major per say the train can go into service without a resolution. The current situation is farcical as the bulk of ticket checkers have guards certificates anyway and with the increase in service levels there won't be anyone out of a job. It is in theory possible to operate a CDE set driver only if its driven from the control car The ride is a bit iffy we knew that, we just don't know how iffy. The MK3 ride is unusual its hard to pin down why it is good as it shouldn't be. Its not that much better than a good MK2 (yes I've been on a IE MK2 at 90mph). It is miles better than the enterprise coaches Doors are always a problem and are the number one item on the list normally of issues, the issues can be to do with how they operate under fault conditions. A defective MK3 door will actually open itself when a train comes to a halt Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 13-03-2006 at 12:24.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

17-02-2006, 17:04	#21
kilman Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 42	There is a good chance you'll see at least one in Inchicore on any day.Its when there actually leaving Heuston or Kent that I want to see.

18-02-2006, 16:04	#23
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	There was one sitting in the siding at Limerick Junction at about 11pm last night anyway as we passed in a MK3 to Cork. I haven't seen one at Kent yet at all. Any idea when these test in-service runs will actually commence or what trains are going to be CDE operated rather than MK3. Wouldn't mind trying one out.

20-02-2006, 00:18	#27
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The MK3 is the accepted benchmark for a intercity train. I've never said it was perfect but the ride is good and it gets better the faster you go. There are bumps you get on a 2900 you just don't notice in a MK3. I've got a list of all the bumps from Dublin to Thurles so a almost scientific comparision is on The laptop comes with me everywhere I go, I've written pages of a thesis in MK3 coach on Sundays along with the crisps and beer and to be honest there are certain places you stop typing as you know its too rough. Ride is a subjective thing and has all kinds of jargon Basic things like legroom and seat spacing count for a lot, larger enough tables, seats which line up with windows thats what the passengers want. Will the PA volume be right ? We just don't know yet and we look forward to trying it out

21-02-2006, 17:23	#28
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	Ah don't worry the lads will get the PA totally screwed up... You wouldn't want the customers knowing where they were or anything like that. The PA mic will be dunked into a pot of tea before every announcement as has been the tradition on all IE trains for decades.

24-02-2006, 22:20	#29
Red Alert Regular Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 33	I always find the PA nice and loud on the Mk3's and in fairness to IE, the Air Conditioning does in fact work compared to Mk3 sets I've been on in Britain. It held it at ~15C on a roasting 25C day in the summer. Why did IE buy new engines for the cork sets? Could they not have used the GE ones?

24-02-2006, 22:46	#30
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	They haven't bought any they repainted the 1994 batch

25-02-2006, 16:20	#31
Kevin K Kelehan Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: West Tower Posts: 355	How long have these trains been hanging around for now? It is not that they are even that great; a bit of a Voyager as opposed to a Pendolino if you ask me and there is a huge difference on the inside in terms of comfort and train times. London Coventry yesterday in 48 minutes

26-02-2006, 03:09	#32
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	There are a few things to note about the Irish MK3s that differenciate them from their British cousins apart from the automatic doors on the irish fleet. CIE ran everything using 220/380V 50Hz 3-phase (same as the power supplied to any Irish or European building).. this gave them a lot more scope for add-on equipment and is generally easier to work with. The heating system is different and the air con units aren't quite the same either due to the power supply differences. It's also worth noting that the IE MK3 fleet is substantially younger than the MK3s commonly found in the UK. CIE's fleet dates from 1984 onwards, much of it is younger than the LHB Darts. By the 1980s the BREL air conditioning systems had improved a tad! I have no idea who makes the air con kit on IE's fleet, but I would agree it generally does work. The coach-end doors being open at either end can render it much less effective though.

27-02-2006, 18:45	#33
Kevin K Kelehan Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: West Tower Posts: 355	Mr X I'm talking about Pendolinos and Voyagers not Mark 3 or BREL which now only operate as spares or on the Eastern and South Western lines.

02-03-2006, 00:20	#35
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	I came within 10 seconds of nabbing the guy in charge today to ask, damn We have a date, time and platform number but it has not been confirmed Once we have a confirmation we will post full details

06-03-2006, 11:15	#36
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Contrary to reports elsewhere indicating the CDE set going into service on the 9am to Cork this morning it did not

13-03-2006, 13:51	#39
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	Reminds me of a carry on movie... about loos!

13-03-2006, 15:24	#40
Thomas J Stamp Chairman/Publicity Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Home of Hurling Posts: 2,708	Carry on at your conveniance? A factory run by a Mr Crapper? I liked that one. What was the film starring Peter Sellars? I'm all right Jack?