How to improve the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line?

[Deedsie]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

All crossings impact on journey times.

I'm not aware of any modernisation plans.

I'm afraid you're on a hiding to nothing here.

The line would would require hundreds of millions of euro to be brought up to an acceptable standard and that is frankly needed more elsewhere.

Ah I like a challenge, and it's something to say to politicians when they come to the door. It's not the most important project by a good distance but small regular investment could improve the line to keep it active.

I agree you but I would just say investment is needed equally elsewhere. The line needs to be upgraded... When was the last big investment in this line?

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Deedsie

Is there anyway to find out exactly how many level crossings there are? Is there a GIS map viewer or anything?

On this map: http://www.irishrail.ie/timetables/live-map-intercity zoom in to Tipperary and click 'Level Crossings'.

This is a work in progress: http://product.itoworld.com/map/258?...ullscreen=true vehicle crossings (automatic, manual or accommodation) in green, pedestrian crossings in blue.

ITO World is based on OpenStreetMap, which is a work in progress. The Irish Rail data is generally more complete, but is variable in quality.

[Inniskeen]

As Berney Arms says, despite relaying half the line in recent years as well as renewing fences, bridges and level crossings, Irish Rail have almost zero interest in the route. Little attempt has been made to make the service relevant and consequently it justs limps aimlessly along delivering little or no value to the taxpayer.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Deedsie

Sorry but your link isn't working for me but I will assume we are referring to the same thing.

Image fixed:
http://railusers.ie/forum/attachment...d=145919690 8

[Deedsie]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

Image fixed:
http://railusers.ie/forum/attachment...d=145919690 8

Something like this is what I was thinking. It would surely increase speeds if the train didnt have to travel to Ballybrophy and switch trains? Am I missing something there?

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/attach...d=145924681 5

Sorry I dont know how to get the attached image to work.

[Deedsie]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

On this map: http://www.irishrail.ie/timetables/live-map-intercity zoom in to Tipperary and click 'Level Crossings'.

This is a work in progress: http://product.itoworld.com/map/258?...ullscreen=true vehicle crossings (automatic, manual or accommodation) in green, pedestrian crossings in blue.

ITO World is based on OpenStreetMap, which is a work in progress. The Irish Rail data is generally more complete, but is variable in quality.

Great links... Thanks so much.

Wow there is so much to it. Limerick to Birdhill has so many level crossings it would need massive investment. As would Nenagh to Ballybrophy.

All very depressing. What would be the best use of money to invest in the line though?

[Deedsie]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

As Berney Arms says, despite relaying half the line in recent years as well as renewing fences, bridges and level crossings, Irish Rail have almost zero interest in the route. Little attempt has been made to make the service relevant and consequently it justs limps aimlessly along delivering little or no value to the taxpayer.

I understand. Its a shame as it serves an area of the midwest without many jobs and an improved public infrastructure for the area to bring workers where there are jobs. Limerick or Dublin would be a great help.

I am not a fanatic, I totally understand that there are far more worthy projects. Dart Underground etc.

But if there was say €10 million to spend on improving the line. Where would that be best spent?

[James Howard]

Sadly, 10 million to invest in the line would probably be better spent establishing a decent bus-based rural transport network in the area. But assuming you were investing it in rail, the best return is probably in level crossing automation. Each one saves at least 100k per annum and it makes it much easier to keep the line open for longer hours.

[Deedsie]

Originally Posted by James Howard

Sadly, 10 million to invest in the line would probably be better spent establishing a decent bus-based rural transport network in the area. But assuming you were investing it in rail, the best return is probably in level crossing automation. Each one saves at least 100k per annum and it makes it much easier to keep the line open for longer hours.

And how much does it cost to automate a level crossing?

There are 29 level crossings on this map if you zoom into the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line.

http://www.irishrail.ie/timetables/live-map-intercity/?

Are any of these 29 already automated? There are 3 (A)'s when you click on the individual level crossings. There are also U's, CX's, occupied etc. I am unsure what these mean.

[Mark Gleeson]

Lets be realistic here, 30-40 million might cover a re-signalling and level crossing automation and sorting out the platforms at Birdhill, Nenagh and Roscrea as well as adding in a crossover at Ballybrophy to simplify through running towards Dublin requiring only a single reversal in both directions vs the current 1 or 3. Proposing new lines is crazy.

Won't make a huge difference in running times, but would make a massive difference to the running costs.

No line anywhere makes a profit, its more a case of minimizing the loss.

You can't divert the Limerick Junction - Limerick shuttle as that walks away from the Cork Limerick market. Even if you spent a stack of money you would be lucky to get a 75mph railway, the 100mph route to Limerick Junction and 80mph to Limerick would still be faster by a wide margin.

To be honest if there was 30-40 million in cash available a complete rebuild and re-signalling of Limerick station would be much higher on the list

[Deedsie]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Lets be realistic here, 30-40 million might cover a re-signalling and level crossing automation and sorting out the platforms at Birdhill, Nenagh and Roscrea as well as adding in a crossover at Ballybrophy to simplify through running towards Dublin requiring only a single reversal in both directions vs the current 1 or 3. Proposing new lines is crazy.

Won't make a huge difference in running times, but would make a massive difference to the running costs.

No line anywhere makes a profit, its more a case of minimizing the loss.

You can't divert the Limerick Junction - Limerick shuttle as that walks away from the Cork Limerick market. Even if you spent a stack of money you would be lucky to get a 75mph railway, the 100mph route to Limerick Junction and 80mph to Limerick would still be faster by a wide margin.

To be honest if there was 30-40 million in cash available a complete rebuild and re-signalling of Limerick station would be much higher on the list

Why is it crazy to propose a more direct and faster line? The entire network needs to be upgraded it seems and this line is be far the worst in the country. The government decide what part of the rail infrastructure is upgraded. Surely that investment needs to be share through the regions. Not getting into a Dublin v the rest argument. I am all for Metro North and Dart Underground.

When is the last time this line received a significant upgrade. No wonder people dont use it. Its dreadful in every way.

[James Howard]

Let's assume there was 30 or 40 million to invest in this line which is extremely hypothetical. Which would do more for the communities along the line - double the number of trains per day or closure combined with a radical increase in bus transport in the area resulting in hourly buses from every town with a population of 1,000 or more to the mainline and/or Limerick.

Because that's what 40 million and the railway's operational subsidy would give you. You'd probably get a greenway as well to preserve the route and attract tourists.

[Colm Moore]

It needs a new signalling system, large sections of new track and probably structural work to bridges, culverts, cuttings, embankments, station works

Originally Posted by James Howard

Each one saves at least 100k per annum and it makes it much easier to keep the line open for longer hours.

I'm not sure that savings would be that high. Level crossing keepers aren't paid a whole lot (but typically get a cottage) and the hours are limited - a few minutes at a time, 4-5 times a day.

Originally Posted by Deedsie

And how much does it cost to automate a level crossing?

About €750,000 each.

Originally Posted by Deedsie

Are any of these 29 already automated? There are 3 (A)'s when you click on the individual level crossings. There are also U's, CX's, occupied etc. I am unsure what these mean.

"CX" may be short-hard for "crossing".

"CCTV" means an automated level crossing, run from a central location and can be used 24 hours

"Attended" means there is a human presence during working hours.

"Occupation" seems to be a private crossing, within one property - typically a farm - commonly called an accommodation crossing.

"XN164" "Level crossing" (X), "Nenagh Line" (N) "Reference number" (Level crossing number 164 measure from Ballybrohy) Numbers are in order, but not necessarily sequential. Some crossings will have been closed, e.g in the 400 metres south of Lisnagry, there used to be 4 level crossings, now only 2. I'm not sure if all crossings are on the Irish Rail map - some field crossings seem not to be on it.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Deedsie

Why is it crazy to propose a more direct and faster line? The entire network needs to be upgraded it seems and this line is be far the worst in the country. The government decide what part of the rail infrastructure is upgraded. Surely that investment needs to be share through the regions. Not getting into a Dublin v the rest argument. I am all for Metro North and Dart Underground.

When is the last time this line received a significant upgrade. No wonder people dont use it. Its dreadful in every way.

this is a bizzare topic and no mistake, its like we're all gone back in time.

Lest anyone mistake marko of RUI as being pale rail here, I am as far as i know the only person on this forum who actually uses this line and was defintitly the only one who used the early morning commuter train to Dublin. In fact one glorious day I was the only passenger on board and had an entire express train to myself in morning rush hour from Portlaoise into Dublin. Many thanks to Alan Kelly.

Irish Rail are at the moment replacing the wooden sleeper track with concrete between Ballybrophy and Roscrea. This tells you all you need to know about the line. It operates for two reasons - firstly, so that it can be closed if Gov demands for cutbacks get very fierce. Secondly, to keep some lads in Irish Rail in Limerick with something to do. We have long said that the trains on the branch are going in the other direction to the rush hour traffic. To be fair IR did start doing the splits so that one car goes back to limerick and the other to Ballybrophy, but in reality they need to move the crews to portlaoise and start the service at Brophy to get to Limerick for working hours and then come back in the evening. Hell, you can even have it shuttling up and down all day long causing nobody and harm or offence.

The commuter thing to dublin was heavily advertised, it was in the local papers, the radio, there were posters in many shops in the towns along the route. There was no uptake simply because the numbers heading east do not exist in any great quantity. Even Templemore/Ballybrophy has small numbers - there comes a point when the commuting day is simply too long to make Dublin as a destination desirable. By contrast Limerick is nearer, and accordingly gets a lot of commuter traffic.

I think that this is the cheapest and easiest way of making the most of the line which means it wont be done.

As for building new lines..... there just isn't the potential customer base to justify it. Even at the height of the madness Roscrea was not going to be a dormer town, Templemore was next on that map, and Borris in Ossory is just down the road from Ballybrophy station. That money will be needed to make what already exists more attractive.

[Deedsie]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

this is a bizzare topic and no mistake, its like we're all gone back in time.

Lest anyone mistake marko of RUI as being pale rail here, I am as far as i know the only person on this forum who actually uses this line and was defintitly the only one who used the early morning commuter train to Dublin. In fact one glorious day I was the only passenger on board and had an entire express train to myself in morning rush hour from Portlaoise into Dublin. Many thanks to Alan Kelly.

Irish Rail are at the moment replacing the wooden sleeper track with concrete between Ballybrophy and Roscrea. This tells you all you need to know about the line. It operates for two reasons - firstly, so that it can be closed if Gov demands for cutbacks get very fierce. Secondly, to keep some lads in Irish Rail in Limerick with something to do. We have long said that the trains on the branch are going in the other direction to the rush hour traffic. To be fair IR did start doing the splits so that one car goes back to limerick and the other to Ballybrophy, but in reality they need to move the crews to portlaoise and start the service at Brophy to get to Limerick for working hours and then come back in the evening. Hell, you can even have it shuttling up and down all day long causing nobody and harm or offence.

The commuter thing to dublin was heavily advertised, it was in the local papers, the radio, there were posters in many shops in the towns along the route. There was no uptake simply because the numbers heading east do not exist in any great quantity. Even Templemore/Ballybrophy has small numbers - there comes a point when the commuting day is simply too long to make Dublin as a destination desirable. By contrast Limerick is nearer, and accordingly gets a lot of commuter traffic.

I think that this is the cheapest and easiest way of making the most of the line which means it wont be done.

As for building new lines..... there just isn't the potential customer base to justify it. Even at the height of the madness Roscrea was not going to be a dormer town, Templemore was next on that map, and Borris in Ossory is just down the road from Ballybrophy station. That money will be needed to make what already exists more attractive.

"Like we are all gone back in time" similar to the reconditioning and use of the Phoenix park tunnel?

I am advocating improving the line gradually over time. Having a plan in place for the most constructive way to improve journey times.

Allowing the line to die would be a massive shame.

[Thomas J Stamp]

we've long campaigned for the PPT to be used and despite being told on many an occasion by IE that it couldnt be done, lo it has been. (almost).

the line is being gradually improved. In the same way that the forth bridge is being gradually painted.

We've been advocating our ideas on the nenagh timetable since about 2007 as far as i remember.

Yes, it would be gross folly to have it close, irish railway history is replete with such folly.

[Deedsie]

Talk in the papers that the line is up for the chop again...

I'm a big supporter of the Ballybrophy - Nenagh - Limerick line but no one is going to use it as it is. I searched earlier for a train from Dublin to Nenagh on Saturday. 3 hours 10 minutes... I'd actually drive down and back to Dublin in that time.

I mean I don't want the line closed but I would rather they close it and invest the money more wisely elsewhere rather than keep that poor service going. It's a waste of time as it is. I'm a supporter of the line and I won't use it at 3 hours 10 minutes.

Limerick is 40 km further from Dublin than Nenagh and the train from Dublin to limerick is 1 hour 10'minutes faster.

So either invest in the line and improve the speeds or just mothball it until we find a massive oil field between Annacotty and Nenagh.

Limerick Junction to Limerick Colbert ~ 40 km - Journey time 26 minutes

Nenagh to Limerick Colbert ~ 40 km - Journey time 60 minutes

I mean how can they expect people to use that service?

[Eddie]

Why is it not possible to book Dublin to Limerick via this line? I know it's slower and requires a change, but there are plenty of other examples where longer journey times via non-direct routes are offered eg Dublin to Waterford via Limerick Junction or Dublin to Ennis via Athenry. Looks like there are 2 daily trains from Dublin that connect at Ballybrophy.

You can only book Dublin to Castleconnell (the last stop before Limerick), so presumably you'd need to pay extra on board to go to Limerick.

When visiting towns across Ireland it's more interesting to go a different route in each direction if you have the time.

Even assuming only a small take up, it should reduce the reported per passenger sudsidy quite a bit.

[comcor]

Every one of the options for a link to the Nenagh Branch is a Cork InterCity with a connection to Limerick at Limerick Junction.

So, a passenger will arrive in Limerick earlier if they change in Limerick Junction.

As far as I can see, the Irish Rail booking engine won't offer an option where it is possible to leave at the same time or later and arrive earlier (leaving later and arriving at the same time does seem to be allowed).

[Inniskeen]

The Ballybrophy/Limerick line is afficted by level crossings, particularly between Birdhill and Killonan. There are a very large number of accommodation crossings as well but oddly enough they seem to have more of an impact on this line than any other line. For instance there are plenty of accommodation crossings between Limerick and Limerick Junction as well and although the general speed limit on this line has been reduced from 80 to 60 mph it is still well above the 30/40 mph deemed necessary on long lengths of upgraded track on the Nenagh line.