Recomend a good solicitor

[Mark Gleeson]

Glenageary complies with Article 9 as it has ticket sales through machine (and office), Broombridge is a different case. Irish Rail has opted for the clause which requires a ticket before boarding for revenue protection reasons.

The reality is very simple

It was possible to purchase a ticket before boarding

There is no obligation to give change. All of this is completely legal and well within international transport norms.

Had there been no machine or the machine was broken this would have been a different case and odds are there would have been no fine issued and normal fare collected.

The Luas machines are identical and have the same rules on 50 euro notes and change limits. Strangely we have never had a complaint about this on Luas...

[grainne whale]

No wonder there are no complaints from Luas passengers, the denominations of notes and coins accepted are clearly visible ON THE SCREEN. The paper notice stuck on with glue on the vending machine can easily be missed when one's attention is on the screen. This is extremely unprofessional. I could do just as well myself, with a laptop and a printer.
PS: Passengers do have rights. As regards not being obliged to give change, that is open to a challenge, perhaps I'll take that up with The Director of Consumer Affairs.

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail display the specific limits on the machine, its there because we asked them to display the limits upfront. We got them to change the entire payment process to avoid past issues.

Irish Rail does not have to give change, Dublin Bus accept exact only, there is no legal block on refusing to give change. In most cases change is available but not always. 500 euro notes may be legal tender but find someone other than a bank to accept one is a challenge.

The reality is if the machine accepted 50 euro notes for 2 euro transactions, the machine would be out of service in a matter of a few hours due lack of change. There is also some possible legal limits on the change a retailer can give to a customer.

Try the Netherlands out where the ticket machines won't accept any paper money at all!

Reality here is there was a serviceable ticket machine in place, it wasn't hidden, there wasn't a queue.

We can find no fault on Irish Rail, there ticketing purchase policy is compliant with EU rules, is the same if not identical to that in use in the UK and across many parts of Europe.

In the past were we have found cases where Irish Rail issued fines in questionable circumstances we have been able to get the fines struck out since we could reasonably show that a ticket could not be obtained.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Irish Rail display the specific limits on the machine, its there because we asked them to display the limits upfront. We got them to change the entire payment process to avoid past issues.

Irish Rail does not have to give change, Dublin Bus accept exact only, there is no legal block on refusing to give change. In most cases change is available but not always. 500 euro notes may be legal tender but find someone other than a bank to accept one is a challenge.

The reality is if the machine accepted 50 euro notes for 2 euro transactions, the machine would be out of service in a matter of a few hours due lack of change. There is also some possible legal limits on the change a retailer can give to a customer.

Try the Netherlands out where the ticket machines won't accept any paper money at all!

Reality here is there was a serviceable ticket machine in place, it wasn't hidden, there wasn't a queue.

We can find no fault on Irish Rail, there ticketing purchase policy is compliant with EU rules, is the same if not identical to that in use in the UK and across many parts of Europe.

In the past were we have found cases where Irish Rail issued fines in questionable circumstances we have been able to get the fines struck out since we could reasonably show that a ticket could not be obtained.

I'm not commenting on the Glenageary case here it's just a general observation. The ticketing machines are confusing, especially having additional information (about the denominations they accept) stuck on a piece of paper. If you reach the barrier and you are confronted with a display 'no ticket required', of course you would just walk through, thinking you can buy a ticket on board. I have an annual ticket so I don't have this problem, but I can understand that possibly a number of people do find it confusing, especially people who do not travel by train that often.

[Mark Gleeson]

The turnstiles now display "Tag On/Off" and have done since the start of January when unlocked.

The European comparison is relevant as everyone has to follow the same EU rules

Having visited 16 countries in the last year, the Irish Rail machines are amongst the simplest to use anywhere, they support the most languages and have the least number of options so its normally only 3 button pushes to complete the transaction.

The Swiss ones are pretty decent as well, but UK and Dutch are the horrible.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The turnstiles now display "Tag On/Off" and have done since the start of January when unlocked.

The European comparison is relevant as everyone has to follow the same EU rules

Having visited 16 countries in the last year, the Irish Rail machines are amongst the simplest to use anywhere, they support the most languages and have the least number of options so its normally only 3 button pushes to complete the transaction.

The Swiss ones are pretty decent as well, but UK and Dutch are the horrible.

I bet the continental machines don't have extra information stuck on to the machine on piece of paper.

[James Howard]

Interesting that you bring up the Swiss machines being excellent as there was an article on BBC the other day about their being an unholy row going on regarding over-aggressive enforcement of ticketing rules.

Mark, I think it is quite likely that given your vast experience in using ticket machines internationally that you might have a different idea of what "easy to use" is when it comes to purchasing your ticket out of the machines than the average late-middle-aged occasional rail user.

This is a completely different experience to an occasional user who might have last taken trains regularly in the 1990's when the old wheeze of buying a ticket from Sydney Parade into town in the hopes that the Sligo train would be too crowded for the ticket collector to get to you worked a treat.

The Luas is a different kettle-of-fish altogether. Firstly, the service is extremely frequent so you don't really mind missing a tram while buying a ticket. But more importantly you can't take the Luas more than 4 or 5 times without coming across ticket collectors and it is blatantly obvious that you are going to come a cropper if you don't have a ticket. In other words, they have highly visible, regular, consistent enforcement and everybody knows the rules. For whatever reason, Irish Rail have not managed to get the message across to the occasional user and the regular user generally has a season ticket anyway.

[Jamie2k9]

The ticketing machines are confusing, especially having additional information (about the denominations they accept) stuck on a piece of paper

Think you will find that when you at the payment step, it is clearly shown on the screen the notes and coins they accept and 50 notes are not shown. So you have the screen and peice of paper that say no 50 notes.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

Think you will find that when you at the payment step, it is clearly shown on the screen the notes and coins they accept and 50 notes are not shown. So you have the screen and peice of paper that say no 50 notes.

I checked yesterday at Heuston and €50 ARE SHOWN on the screen. Below the screen there is a (paper) notice in small script saying that €50 notes cannot be used for a journey costing less than €31, most people would need glasses to read this.

[Jamie2k9]

Originally Posted by grainne whale

I checked yesterday at Heuston and €50 ARE SHOWN on the screen. Below the screen there is a (paper) notice in small script saying that €50 notes cannot be used for a journey costing less than €31, most people would need glasses to read this.

If thats the case then some do and some don't because 2 machines in Waterford only show 5, 10, 20 notes.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

If thats the case then some do and some don't because 2 machines in Waterford only show 5, 10, 20 notes.

Yep, just thought that I'd check it out yesterday on my way home, of course then again it might just be that particular machine.

[Inniskeen]

Went to buy tickets at Pearse this morning, value €10.50. Machine explicity invited me to pay with cash (including €50 note) or various cards. Only when I selected cash payment did the €50 note icon disappear from the screen - not sure that your average customer would notice this. The machine had a not overly obvious small "stick on" label indicating that €50 notes were only accepted for payment when the amount to be paid is €31 or more.

[Jamie2k9]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

Went to buy tickets at Pearse this morning, value €10.50. Machine explicity invited me to pay with cash (including €50 note) or various cards. Only when I selected cash payment did the €50 note icon disappear from the screen - not sure that your average customer would notice this. The machine had a not overly obvious small "stick on" label indicating that €50 notes were only accepted for payment when the amount to be paid is €31 or more.

Maybe IE should do what Luas machines do, when you are at the payment stage they have all notes listed with a red x through the 50 note.

Thats if the machines are the same.

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by grainne whale

I bet the continental machines don't have extra information stuck on to the machine on piece of paper.

Some over here in London do, and the one I used at Dusseldorf airport a while back was festooned with stickers.

You will also find you can't use two €50 notes to pay for a ticket costing €68, by the way.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Thomas Ralph

Some over here in London do, and the one I used at Dusseldorf airport a while back was festooned with stickers.

You will also find you can't use two €50 notes to pay for a ticket costing €68, by the way.

What sort of stickers, information on denominations of euro to be used or other : massage parlours etc.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Eddie

On a related point, I was going through Shankill station about 6.40pm last Friday, and the station was unmanned, and the gates left open, with the "No ticket required" sign or something similar.

As it was windy, I stayed around the ticket office area and noticed the ticket office opening hours sign and it said that it was manned something like 5.15am unil 00.15am.

I go through this station on a semi-regular basis at roughly peak hours, and I'd say its unmanned at least 30% of the time and it could be up to 50% or more during the afternoon / evening peak hours. I can't imagine it's better outside peak hours.

You could come to a number of conclusions as to why it's unmanned such a large proportion of the time:
- perhaps the sign is out-of-date
- perhaps there is a job vacancy
- perhaps there is staff sickness and no one to fill in
- perhaps there is someone due to be on duty but they just don't turn up because there's no monitoring system and they know they won't get caught

I don't think this is a one-off, affecting this station only. We've all been through unmanned stations, though I rarely check to see if the booth was supposed to be open, according to the adjacent sign. It would be interesting to know if Glenageary station which Scooby went through was due to be manned at the time. If it was, and as his intention was to buy a ticket, presumably he would have been able to pay with a €50 note, and avoid the fine.

Just for interest, what level of staff monitoring is there at stations, particularly at stations where there is only one member of staff due to be on duty?

Would you believe it - I went through Shankill again last Friday evening - again unmanned - and the ticket office opening hours sign has been removed.

Gates left open again but "Tag on / off" sign was displayed, not "No ticket required".

Good to see this forum is obviously carefully watched, but now the public have no information as to when the station should or shouldn't be open.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Eddie

On a related point, I was going through Shankill station about 6.40pm last Friday, and the station was unmanned, and the gates left open, with the "No ticket required" sign or something similar.

As it was windy, I stayed around the ticket office area and noticed the ticket office opening hours sign and it said that it was manned something like 5.15am unil 00.15am.

I go through this station on a semi-regular basis at roughly peak hours, and I'd say its unmanned at least 30% of the time and it could be up to 50% or more during the afternoon / evening peak hours. I can't imagine it's better outside peak hours.

You could come to a number of conclusions as to why it's unmanned such a large proportion of the time:
- perhaps the sign is out-of-date
- perhaps there is a job vacancy
- perhaps there is staff sickness and no one to fill in
- perhaps there is someone due to be on duty but they just don't turn up because there's no monitoring system and they know they won't get caught.

A new notice has appeared at Shankill station, with ticket office opening times now stated as Monday to Friday, 7am til 10am, so it appears my first conclusion was the correct one. It certainly demonstrates a massive decline, from being open 19 hours a day to just 3, and I presume this has been mirrored across many suburban stations.