Closure on the cards. A wanton throwaway of an asset whose potential is being ignored

[PLUMB LOCO]

TomB - sorry if you thought my post a bit OTT but I am more than a bit annoyed. I don't know where you get your 90% figure from and I can tell you as somebody who uses the line when possible, lived in a town served by it in the 1980s, it is very difficult to use a service that is not timed to suit anybody but the railway company's employees. If the Dublin/Cork line had a service similar to the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line and accordingly low numbers would you advocate closing it?

Anyway, there's now a Facebook group to save the Waterford/Rosslare line here:http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...d=367387502018

with an online petition to that fool Minister Noel Dempsey - for all the use it will be - but anyone who cares might as well sign up.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

TomB - sorry if you thought my post a bit OTT but I am more than a bit annoyed. it is very difficult to use a service that is not timed to suit anybody but the railway company's employees.

Anyway, there's now a Facebook group to save the Waterford/Rosslare line here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...d=367387502018

with an online petition to that fool Minister Noel Dempsey - for all the use it will be - but anyone who cares might as well sign up.

that is exactly what i said. RUI as a body has not got the luxury of being emotive and hot headed on an issue like this. What we do is present a cold hard argument regarding keeping services/standards ect. In that role we often get called upon by local groups and others to help them in their fights and their presentations to Government, TD's and the Stakeholders.

I hope everyone who is a member of RUI or is just a poster like Plumb Loco joins this facebook page and signs the petition. RUI will do its part as well.

[TomB]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

I have travelled on the Waterford - Rosslare once and the Limerick Junc - Waterford twice in recent years

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

I don't know where you get your 90% figure from

Sorry, I probably didn't express that very well -- I wasn't making pot shots at posters here, merely making a wider observation that there will be the inevitable hoo-ha in local and national media about line closures and that lots of people will oppose closure based on the fact that rail lines are A Good Thing without any direct experience of the service in question.

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The ride isn't the greatest but people have quickly forgotten what 50mph on jointed track was like, that was the standard experience until quite recently. That CWR track is actually quite smooth and the 2700 railcars are the smoothest and quietest of the bunch.

I know ride quality can be very subjective so we'll have to agree to differ on this point. All I can say is that going down by train and back up to Limerick by bus, the bus was more comfortable for us.

My contention is that this debate has been going on for years and years and what we've ended up with for the past 30 years is a line which is kept open (by a thread), loses a lot of money, and which provides a service which isn't very good.

Take a look at this Dáil debate from 1977 -- it feels like absolutely nothing has changed:

http://historical-debates.oireachtas...702220056.html

This is, of course, what bloody annoys me about Ennis-Athenry -- Ballybrophy-Limerick and Rosslare-Limerick Junction are textbook examples of a train service on a single track line providing a rubbish service uncompetitive with bus, yet we're going to do it all over again with Ennis-Athenry.

Mark's point about the comparative costs of Ennis-Athenry versus Junction-Rosslare are interesting -- the tragedy is of course for the price of the two we could have had a decent Junction Rosslare service which would have provided a template for successful 'Regional Rail' in this country

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

IE are the least likely organisation to take any form of postive action to address the problems

Sure, absolutely. Which presents a dilemma. We all know that a combination of Victorian work practices lower down and a dearth of customer focus higher up results in a rail system that can be woeful and expensive. Which is of course why an organisation like RUI is badly needed -- to give a kick up the behind to IE in both departments.

The genesis of RUI was in the proposed closure of these lines 7 years ago. I'm just wondering aloud whether another situation where the lines are 'saved' would really benefit anyone significantly, if nothing else changes. Could we still be having the same debate in another 30 years?

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by TomB

Could we still be having the same debate in another 30 years?

i would hope so.

[Mark Gleeson]

I see the real problem of the regional lines being considered as separate entities, considered individually the potential is lower than if viewed as a combined entity, why can't you go from Galway to Rosslare as a single seat journey?

The numbers suggest if the Limerick Junc - Rosslare line got the basic rail safety program work, funds being already committed the extra cost in running a train every 2 hours would be more than offset by the savings from eliminating the manual signal cabins and crossings, resulting in a lower overall cost to provide a much better service. Given the low starting base numbers would grow significantly.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

I've just had a look at the main site and some rubbish about ticketing comes up when you click on Waterford/Rosslare closure - very professional. Now I see you have something up under latest news which I will read before posting again.

http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.ph...2010&no=2.html

as stated above there is a legal requirement to have a consulatation process, we will be at that.

[dowlingm]

One of the things that must be a serious cost on the line is the Barrow swing bridge. If New Ross Port was closed as part of a consolidation of the three southeast ports - given that about three quarters of its 2004 tonnage in fertilizer, zinc and oil is no more - then maybe the Barrow Bridge could be jacked up and fixed, as Shannonbridge was?

[Mark Gleeson]

I can't see any financal benefit, to replace the Barrow bridge would cost a fortune 3 or 4 times the cost of the Shannon bridge project

[markpb]

I'm not familiar with the line at all but I wonder if the government would consider tendering out the operation of the line to a private company. They could take the railcars, subsidy and license from IR and offer them as a package to the operator. Line maintenance would remain with IR and some of the ticket sales would go to the government. Integrated ticketing with the rest of the IR network would be part and parcel because they wouldn't have any control over it.

A private company wouldn't have the baggage of IR and would have a strong incentive to operate a service people would want to use. IR would win because they'd lose a loss making service (but also lose the subsidy). They could probably reduce their costs by making some staff redundant or transferring them somewhere more productive.

[dowlingm]

I think the ascension of Sean Connick to ministerial rank will do more to concentrate IE's mind than any notional private entrant.

[Mark Gleeson]

Thats more or less what Irish Rail are trying to do. But the government have yet to put in place the legal requirements to allow it.

Ideally let them take over Galway Rosslare, but someone will have to put up money to pay to run the service.

Money + service specification => contract third party

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by markpb

They could probably reduce their costs by making some staff redundant or transferring them somewhere more productive.

There may be a transfer of undertakings issue. http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/in...fundertakings/

[Thomas J Stamp]

was it this time last year, or slightly before, that IE flew the "railbus" kite down there?

[Mark Gleeson]

Slight issue is the bus isn't big enough!

Its routine to see 50-60 on trains between Limerick Junction and Waterford, numbers leaving Waterford to Rosslare can be over 30 on Fridays

Bus can take 20-25 tops

[Colm Moore]

Buy two buses?

[Eddie]

If this line was already closed they'd be looking to reopen it, and to justify it they'd propose a sensible timetable.

Those taxi rides / fares are utterly unbelievable. Passengers feel good that they are not emitting additional green house gases by taking the train only to discover that the train crew go home using road transport.

It makes you wonder how many other train crews are using taxis across the network...

I actually think this line is unlikely to close because the more of the western rail line is opened, the more it makes sense to have through trains to Rosslare. With a few more trains a day, and the iniative that's already in place with regard to free rides for all those over 65, this is really good opportunity to encourage visitors to explore Ireland by rail. (You'd even be able to have tourist trains that circumnavigate Ireland from Dublin to Wexford to Waterford to Limerick to Galway to Westport and back to Dublin.)

[Mark Gleeson]

The logic is for through trains Galway Rosslare, any other country would have them, but as is the practice Irish Rail is trying to kill the route by making it impossible to use

[dowlingm]

So I'm a private operator. I want to use existing stock - oops, IE have scrapped so much of theirs that their railcars are maxed out. I want to use their tracks - well, I suppose I can trust them to charge me an appropriate amount given that they are a vertical operator. And there's no fear of IE unions refusing to operate signals or sell tickets on my behalf or other similar shenanigans. On top of that, I'm operating on the lines they don't want because they are *******ed/manual signal/manual LCs/all of the above.

Where do I sign?

[Jister]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The logic is for through trains Galway Rosslare, any other country would have them, but as is the practice Irish Rail is trying to kill the route by making it impossible to use

I would have thought Ballina - Wexford Town would be the long term logical plan. Rail tourism playing a big part, along with Ballina-Waterford freight and other freight flows to help carry the cost.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Jister

I would have thought Ballina - Wexford Town would be the long term logical plan. Rail tourism playing a big part, along with Ballina-Waterford freight and other freight flows to help carry the cost.

There is already an under used railway along that route.