The Cork Dublin Express Train has entered service - Page 11

Thomas J Stamp · 06-09-2006, 14:46

As some of the toilets on the Vomit Comet dont work because the underfloor septic tank is full, and as you cannot open the windows, please fell free to ask for sickbags when you see the ticket checker, or register your complaint by spewing on the floor.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oisin88
The Mk2D slam doors are gone!

Could we (the Sligo line) have them?

You most certainly can. Not the rest of the train, just the doors. Thats an upgrade.

Derek Wheeler · 06-09-2006, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

As some of the toilets on the Vomit Comet dont work because the underfloor septic tank is full, and as you cannot open the windows, please fell free to ask for sickbags when you see the ticket checker, or register your complaint by spewing on the floor.

I know a guy in the sick bag business. What a marketing opportunity.

sandraoh · 06-09-2006, 15:06

Vomit Comet is still there. I'll keep an eye out about numbers.

Mark Gleeson · 06-09-2006, 15:13

My only advice is to stick with coach E, third from the Cork end, its far enough away from either end to avoid the seriously werid ride, sit in the middle of the coach.

Avoid the last coach next the locomotive since it vibrates and that is a trigger for travel sickness if you are travelling the wrong way around.

First class is really strange I'm told

Derek Wheeler · 06-09-2006, 15:26

The Shortts 360s that Aer Lingus had many years ago were also known as Vomit comets and for the same reason. Up,down, side to side and lots of vibration.

The black hole rollercoaster in Alton Towers is more comfortable than these trains and I think we are all perfectly right to be critical. This is the 21st century and new trains should reflect that. Where it will end is really up in the air.

sandraoh · 06-09-2006, 15:27

If they blamed the lack of sickbags on the train for the unofficial strikes I might agree with them....

sandraoh · 07-09-2006, 08:57

OK. I was on the 4004 today and i was being bashed violently from side to side as I made my way to dining car.
Also has the nicest ticket checker ever. Do they do an award for ticket checker of the year?

MrX · 07-09-2006, 14:54

It's odd though some of the sets still seem to ride OK ish

They need to iron this out very fast or it'll be lousey PR.

Mark Gleeson · 07-09-2006, 15:06

It rides much better Dublin Cork than Cork Dublin, the real test is the embankment about Mp58, its in a curve in open country, there is a lovely lurch as you go through at 80-90mph even the MK3 picks it up but its interesting in a MK4 in both directions.

Set 4002 had a very decent ride for a while but its lost it now, still better than the rest, 4003 is fairly scary and not practical, I can't type or write on it, I can on a MK3 and MK2

ACustomer · 07-09-2006, 15:24

What you imply is that the ride is better when the loco is pulling the train rather than pushing it. Could it be something to do with the connections between coaches being under compression? If that is so then the problem in the Cork-Dublin direction should be at its worst in the coaches at the rear.

MP 58 is in the Portlaoise-Ballybrophy section, just 1.5 miles before Mountrath. Last time I looked at a map this section was virtually straight, and any curves are very gradual. So there must be some serious wet spot or other track defect at MP 58.

Is this shaping up to be a major design fault on the part of CAF, given that the Mk 4s are supposed to be good for 125 mph? When will the blame game start?

Mark Gleeson · 07-09-2006, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACustomer

What you imply is that the ride is better when the loco is pulling the train rather than pushing it. Could it be something to do with the connections between coaches being under compression? If that is so then the problem in the Cork-Dublin direction should be at its worst in the coaches at the rear.

Its bad at the back but its also bad at the front since its like a snake and the 201 is on the back, the first class coach is said to be the worst. The couplings are rigid so compression/tension makes no difference, the research says it should feel no different. That fact they are rigid means if coach A feels a bump coach B gets it as well

Quote:

P 58 is in the Portlaoise-Ballybrophy section, just 1.5 miles before Mountrath. Last time I looked at a map this section was virtually straight, and any curves are very gradual. So there must be some serious wet spot or other track defect at MP 58.

Its there alright http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...86517&t=h&om=1

Its a curve hard to miss it embankment is rough stones with a access road running parrallel, don't think its a wet spot just a alignment issue possibly the embankment itself

Quote:

Is this shaping up to be a major design fault on the part of CAF, given that the Mk 4s are supposed to be good for 125 mph? When will the blame game start?

Already has

sean · 07-09-2006, 15:42

Two questions come to mind:

How much blame should be laid on CAF for this?
Is it fixable?

seamus kilcock · 08-09-2006, 07:56

I find it hard to understand why there is so much criticism of the Mark IV ride.
I want to try it for myself.
Kildare is my nearest station.
What Mark IV services stop at Kildare?
Will report back.

Mark Gleeson · 08-09-2006, 08:09

9:30 Kildare Cork
11:49 Kildare Dublin
17:35 Kildare Dublin
21:28 Kildare Cork

Dublin bound isn't much fun since a flat out run can't be expected, but through Newbridge Dublin bound is shaky

Its not just us, Irish Rail management admit the ride is bad but insist improvements are coming, its got worse not better

sandraoh · 08-09-2006, 08:51

I caught the 4001 today from Portlaoise at 7:24. I almost missed it as it pulled in as we were parking and it was actually on time for once. I imagine a good few people missed it this morning! Anyhow the ride didn't seem so bad except why I was writing around Kildare for about 10 mins my writing was impeded greatly and at some stages I couldn't even get my pen to connect with the page. I didn't feel sea sick though and I was sitting in carriage E so maybe that was why?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the train stopped in Clondalkin for a few minutes and then in CHerry Orchard where we were told that a locomotive had failed ahead of us on the track. We arrived 17 minutes late.

Kildare Commuter · 08-09-2006, 09:21

I know this is a bit technical for this board but one of the problems in the "push" mode of this train is that the loco only seems to use the Buck-eye coupler (I stand to be corrected) to connect to the end coach.

In other systems, the use of buffers and a 'rubbing plate' would soften the interaction between coach and engine. There don't seem to be buffers or plate on the CAF and no rubbing plate on the loco (Not strictly required, note Mk3 Push Pulls)

Mark Gleeson · 08-09-2006, 09:43

Thats not an issue, you need a rubbing plate when you have a screw coupling or else you get a nasty bump moving off is push or the funny sound in pull when everything goes into tension

The pull away is perfectly smooth, a lot smoother than a MK3 no bumps or lurches

The issue is the train is rigid coupled so when a coach hits a bump it transfers its instabilty through the other coaches since the coupler has a very limited degree of freedom. With a screw coupling in pull its got freedom in 2D so the vibration and hunting isn't transmitted through the train.

British Rail had the same problem with there MK4 and simply added a damper between coupler and body to reduce the effects of adjecent coaches, it worked a threat

MrX · 08-09-2006, 09:48

Why do I strongly suspect that it's a CAF intercity 125 type train which ought to have a powercar at either end?

It clearly behaves oddly when pushed... it seems like it ought to be being pushed and pulled.

I travelled on a MK3 push-pull in push from Cork a few months ago and to be quite honest the ride was weird too. It wasn't dire, but it was far far worse than a normal MK3 in pull mode.

At the very least could IE orientate the trains so that 50% of them pull from Cork rather than having them all jumpy from Cork?

Also,

which trains are now CAF and which are BREL MK3 ? timetable wise.
(I've been away)

Mark Gleeson · 08-09-2006, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrX

At the very least could IE orientate the trains so that 50% of them pull from Cork rather than having them all jumpy from Cork? (pending a resolution)

The train faces the way it does for solid operational reasons, think about replacing the locomotive at Cork, Dublin Heuston, Dublin Connolly and Belfast and then think about where the locomotive will be parked with respect to the shed roof, its one of the few intelligent things IE have done

The ride varies dependent on the coach you are in more than anything else

Colm Donoghue · 08-09-2006, 12:49

I would have thought the pointy end is where it is for PR reasons too.

06-09-2006, 15:13	#204
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	My only advice is to stick with coach E, third from the Cork end, its far enough away from either end to avoid the seriously werid ride, sit in the middle of the coach. Avoid the last coach next the locomotive since it vibrates and that is a trigger for travel sickness if you are travelling the wrong way around. First class is really strange I'm told Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 06-09-2006 at 15:20.

08-09-2006, 07:56	#213
seamus kilcock Regular Poster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 103	mark iv trains at kildare I find it hard to understand why there is so much criticism of the Mark IV ride. I want to try it for myself. Kildare is my nearest station. What Mark IV services stop at Kildare? Will report back.

08-09-2006, 09:48	#218
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	Why do I strongly suspect that it's a CAF intercity 125 type train which ought to have a powercar at either end? It clearly behaves oddly when pushed... it seems like it ought to be being pushed and pulled. I travelled on a MK3 push-pull in push from Cork a few months ago and to be quite honest the ride was weird too. It wasn't dire, but it was far far worse than a normal MK3 in pull mode. At the very least could IE orientate the trains so that 50% of them pull from Cork rather than having them all jumpy from Cork? Also, which trains are now CAF and which are BREL MK3 ? timetable wise. (I've been away) Last edited by MrX : 08-09-2006 at 09:56.

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06-09-2006, 15:26	#205
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	The Shortts 360s that Aer Lingus had many years ago were also known as Vomit comets and for the same reason. Up,down, side to side and lots of vibration. The black hole rollercoaster in Alton Towers is more comfortable than these trains and I think we are all perfectly right to be critical. This is the 21st century and new trains should reflect that. Where it will end is really up in the air.

06-09-2006, 15:27	#206
sandraoh Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Portlaoise Posts: 145	If they blamed the lack of sickbags on the train for the unofficial strikes I might agree with them....

07-09-2006, 08:57	#207
sandraoh Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Portlaoise Posts: 145	OK. I was on the 4004 today and i was being bashed violently from side to side as I made my way to dining car. Also has the nicest ticket checker ever. Do they do an award for ticket checker of the year?

07-09-2006, 14:54	#208
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	It's odd though some of the sets still seem to ride OK ish They need to iron this out very fast or it'll be lousey PR.

07-09-2006, 15:06	#209
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	It rides much better Dublin Cork than Cork Dublin, the real test is the embankment about Mp58, its in a curve in open country, there is a lovely lurch as you go through at 80-90mph even the MK3 picks it up but its interesting in a MK4 in both directions. Set 4002 had a very decent ride for a while but its lost it now, still better than the rest, 4003 is fairly scary and not practical, I can't type or write on it, I can on a MK3 and MK2

07-09-2006, 15:24	#210
ACustomer Really Regular Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 767	What you imply is that the ride is better when the loco is pulling the train rather than pushing it. Could it be something to do with the connections between coaches being under compression? If that is so then the problem in the Cork-Dublin direction should be at its worst in the coaches at the rear. MP 58 is in the Portlaoise-Ballybrophy section, just 1.5 miles before Mountrath. Last time I looked at a map this section was virtually straight, and any curves are very gradual. So there must be some serious wet spot or other track defect at MP 58. Is this shaping up to be a major design fault on the part of CAF, given that the Mk 4s are supposed to be good for 125 mph? When will the blame game start?

07-09-2006, 15:42	#212
sean Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Dublin Posts: 707	Two questions come to mind: How much blame should be laid on CAF for this? Is it fixable?

08-09-2006, 08:09	#214
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	9:30 Kildare Cork 11:49 Kildare Dublin 17:35 Kildare Dublin 21:28 Kildare Cork Dublin bound isn't much fun since a flat out run can't be expected, but through Newbridge Dublin bound is shaky Its not just us, Irish Rail management admit the ride is bad but insist improvements are coming, its got worse not better

08-09-2006, 08:51	#215
sandraoh Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Portlaoise Posts: 145	I caught the 4001 today from Portlaoise at 7:24. I almost missed it as it pulled in as we were parking and it was actually on time for once. I imagine a good few people missed it this morning! Anyhow the ride didn't seem so bad except why I was writing around Kildare for about 10 mins my writing was impeded greatly and at some stages I couldn't even get my pen to connect with the page. I didn't feel sea sick though and I was sitting in carriage E so maybe that was why? Edit: I forgot to mention that the train stopped in Clondalkin for a few minutes and then in CHerry Orchard where we were told that a locomotive had failed ahead of us on the track. We arrived 17 minutes late.

08-09-2006, 09:21	#216
Kildare Commuter New to the board Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 29	I know this is a bit technical for this board but one of the problems in the "push" mode of this train is that the loco only seems to use the Buck-eye coupler (I stand to be corrected) to connect to the end coach. In other systems, the use of buffers and a 'rubbing plate' would soften the interaction between coach and engine. There don't seem to be buffers or plate on the CAF and no rubbing plate on the loco (Not strictly required, note Mk3 Push Pulls)

08-09-2006, 09:43	#217
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Thats not an issue, you need a rubbing plate when you have a screw coupling or else you get a nasty bump moving off is push or the funny sound in pull when everything goes into tension The pull away is perfectly smooth, a lot smoother than a MK3 no bumps or lurches The issue is the train is rigid coupled so when a coach hits a bump it transfers its instabilty through the other coaches since the coupler has a very limited degree of freedom. With a screw coupling in pull its got freedom in 2D so the vibration and hunting isn't transmitted through the train. British Rail had the same problem with there MK4 and simply added a damper between coupler and body to reduce the effects of adjecent coaches, it worked a threat

08-09-2006, 12:49	#220
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	I would have thought the pointy end is where it is for PR reasons too.