Capacity Kildare South

[huggy]

At present most commuter trains servicing in and out of Heuston are already at max capacity, at the same time there seems to be an explosion of planning applications being approved from Sallins to Monasterevin. Has IR any orders in place or plans to order additional carriages to accommodate all these new commuters. Or are my expectations of IR too high to be even asking?

[James Shields]

I think your expectations are far too high. There is some vague plan to introduce hybrid diesel/electric trains in the future, but I haven't seen any mention of when this might actually happen. There's certainly nothing on order.

[ACustomer]

There are 13 or 14 2-car class 2700 sets which are hidden away in storage. Last year there appeared to have been plans to refurbish and return them to service. These units should be the obvious first answer to any emerging capacity shortages.
Has anything happened? Do we have a transport minister and an NTA which are more interested in "grand projets" than in short-term practical and affordable piecemeal improvements?

[huggy]

On the back of the detail ACustomer provided, I found the following, wonder how they will be distributed across the network?

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-...15635-Jul2017/

[comcor]

It's strange that the article refers to putting them on tracks around Limerick.

Even allowing for the Limerick Junction shuttle, Nenagh branch, Waterford and WRC services, Limerick isn't going to need 28 carriages.

[ACustomer]

huggy, comcor, thanks. The report in the journal is dated July 2017. Has there been any move on this since? Some IE projects seem to take forever.

I should imagine that the plan is to release the 2600s and 2800s for use in the Dublin area (and Ballina?). At present there should in theory be 36 2600 and 2800 vehicles (18 2-car sets) based in Limerick. This seems an awful lot, given that ICRs also operate to Limerick Junction and Galway for some services. So maybe 13 2700 sets plus a few ICRs should be enough to cover Limerick's needs.

[comcor]

2600s also operate Cork-Cobh/Midleton/Mallow

I think 2 x 2-car sets for Midleton, 1 x 2-car set + 1 x 4-car set for Cobh to operate peak schedule. I'm not sure how it works for Mallow. There seems to be only one morning service and 2 evening services that aren't operated by either Cork-Dublin or Cork-Tralee InterCity sets.

[ACustomer]

2600s also operate Cork-Cobh/Midleton/Mallow
I think 2 x 2-car sets for Midleton, 1 x 2-car set + 1 x 4-car set for Cobh to operate peak schedule. I'm not sure how it works for Mallow. There seems to be only one morning service and 2 evening services that aren't operated by either Cork-Dublin or Cork-Tralee InterCity sets.

That means you need about 6 2600 sets readily available for Cork-based services. Add in a couple of sets undergoing overhaul, repairs etc accounts pretty well for the 2600 fleet. That leaves 10 2-car 2800 sets for Limerick-based services, which seems a bit generous, when you add in one or two ICR sets covering those services as well.

[Jamie2k9]

No 2600s will leave Cork, they are all needed more or less and operate Commuter/Mallow and Cork/Tralee a few times a week.

There is only 26 2700 coaches (12 x 2 and 2 x 1) and its unclear if all will return however if they all return Limerick/Galway/Limerick J and Ballina branch will keep in the region o 10 busy regularly and then you have spares.

There will be an extra 8 units (2 spare) 2800 in Dublin and provide 2x8 car or 3x6 car or 4x2 car to operate most likely M3 and Maynooth freeing up ICRs to expand PPT/Heuston or N Commuter services.

They will not send a mix of 26/7 to Dublin because it would cost a fortune in maintenance costs if they did that.

[huggy]

So based on the evidence presented, despite Kildare south commuter trains being packed to capacity(not able to board 17.30 last Friday at 17.25) and a huge influx of new houses being developed, Irish rail have zero foresight for an impending problem, standard IR/semi state lack of accountability

[ACustomer]

huggy: don't put all the blame on Irish Rail. The National Transport Authority has arguably an even greater responsibility. Also the Government Departments of Housing/Local Government (or whatever they are called nowadays) and Transport all have ministers sitting around the same table.

No matter how wise Irish Rail might be, they cannot be held responsible for the lack of co-ordination at a higher level.

[huggy]

Fair Point AC

[Mark Gleeson]

The deal is the 2700 will return. They will cover Limerick and Ballina shuttle services. The 2700 is for more suited to regional work and may release an ICR or two

This will release the 2800 back to Dublin, that provides all current 4 coach trains at peak to move to 6 or 8 and may displace the ICR off the Maynooth line for use elsewhere.

The Phoenix Park tunnel service added 10-11 coaches to the morning/evening peak, but thats mostly entirely used up now. Not bad for a service Irish Rail said no one would use.

The original plan was to have DART services from Hazelhatch by now but the funding has never been released.

There are plans to order 41 more ICR coaches and up to 300 DART/hybrid coaches, but that depends on the NTA providing funding just to issue a tender let alone sign a contract.

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by huggy

So based on the evidence presented, despite Kildare south commuter trains being packed to capacity(not able to board 17.30 last Friday at 17.25) and a huge influx of new houses being developed, Irish rail have zero foresight for an impending problem, standard IR/semi state lack of accountability

In fairness, more often than not , people are not able to board trains on the docklands M3 line, and where used in the Maynooth line and Wexford is struggling

Maybe this is more down to the trains being used on those lines.

[ACustomer]

Mark Gleeson:

There are plans to order 41 more ICR coaches and up to 300 DART/hybrid coaches, but that depends on the NTA providing funding just to issue a tender let alone sign a contract.

What you imply is almost that the NTA would ask for a tender before deciding on whether to have a programme of rolling stock purchases. I thought that the way things should work would be to (a) get approval for a strategic investment programme while having some reasonable idea of the likely cost; (b) select a few preferred bidders (not difficult there are just a few big railway rolling stock builders) and (c) then go to tender. Has any of this been done? Does the NTA even know what it wants? Do you need to spend vast sums on consultants before going to tender? I'm afraid the answer to the last question may be "yes" if senior management in the transport sector is clueless.

Not helped by a total lack of any political direction.

[James Howard]

The plans for 300 hybrids and in particular the 40 odd ICR cars have been floating about for a long time. They sound to me more like notions than actual plans. Given how long the saga of the 26x 2700 units has been going on, I wouldn't be holding my breath for things to get any better soon.

Anyway, given Irish Rail's habit of parking up relatively fresh rolling stock that they've taken a dislike to because they've got shinier things to play with now, who's to say that spending the guts of a billion euro on new rolling stock would help matters much?

[comcor]

If and when those units show up, are there plans to cascade some of the other units out of Dublin? Cobh has also been struggling with capacity this year, particularly because demand can be so uneven because of cruise liners. On the 100 or so days there is a cruise liner in, I've hear complaints of morning commuters on stations after Cobh being unable to board.

[Jamie2k9]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The deal is the 2700 will return. They will cover Limerick and Ballina shuttle services. The 2700 is for more suited to regional work and may release an ICR or two

This will release the 2800 back to Dublin, that provides all current 4 coach trains at peak to move to 6 or 8 and may displace the ICR off the Maynooth line for use elsewhere.

The Phoenix Park tunnel service added 10-11 coaches to the morning/evening peak, but thats mostly entirely used up now. Not bad for a service Irish Rail said no one would use.

The original plan was to have DART services from Hazelhatch by now but the funding has never been released.

There are plans to order 41 more ICR coaches and up to 300 DART/hybrid coaches, but that depends on the NTA providing funding just to issue a tender let alone sign a contract.

Taught it had been decided against in favor of 300 hybrid. If they did go for the 300 and possibly a few more then its 37+ 8 car units should ensure ICRs are completely removed off Maynooth, M3, N Commuter and PPT service.

Wonder if they would consider ordering a larger hybrid order with a modified config internally and fully diesel and operate Sligo/Longford/Rosslare and remove the ICRs fully out of Connolly if on board service levels are similar to 22s. Prob 20 units in Connolly at the minute and would cater for Heuston growth long term.

[berneyarms]

As far as I’m aware the 2700 refurb is on hold and may not even happen, and I am pretty sure that the 41 extra ICR coaches was vetoed by the NTA.

Rolling stock (or more precisely the lack of any new additions) is fast becoming the biggest issue facing Irish Rail and the NTA’s lack of action is coming home to bite.

We are looking like nothing until at least the end of 2020 and maybe even 2021.

An absolute disgrace.

[Mark Gleeson]

The 41 extra was the fastest solution as Irish Rail could have leveraged the existing contracts to buy more from Rotem, but the window on this was quite tight. The ICR is a known quantity so it would be a quick build to service time and all the paperwork with the CRR could be avoided.

The Hybrid thing is making progress quickly, we have spotted Irish Rail management on the walk around at the Innotrans in Berlin and know they are very interested in the offering of a specific company. We ain't fans a straight electric option is better, cheaper and we could have Maynooth Connolly wired up several years before any train would be here.

The 2700 fleet, well to get all the information IE want several hundred euro for an FOI so there is something afoot, a train dumped in a shed doesn't generate paperwork so there clearly is a lot of work gone on in the background.