Map - Dublin Area Train and Tram Services

[Colm Moore]

https://www.transportforireland.ie/j...-planner/maps/

[markpb]

While they're a good idea, I think they're a little disingenuous.

The train/tram map artificially squeezes in the north of the city so it looks like
Broombridge and Bayside are equidistant from the city centre. Urban rail maps regularly do this for clarity but I think this one takes it a step too far.

The Frequent Services map considers a bus service to be frequent if its frequent at peak hours. Yes, it says this in the description so they're not hiding it but, again, it's a little disingenuous.

The local area maps look good. DCU has an odd 'You are here' pointer on the map which is odd but otherwise they're very good.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by markpb

While they're a good idea, I think they're a little disingenuous.

The train/tram map artificially squeezes in the north of the city so it looks like
Broombridge and Bayside are equidistant from the city centre. Urban rail maps regularly do this for clarity but I think this one takes it a step too far.

The Frequent Services map considers a bus service to be frequent if its frequent at peak hours. Yes, it says this in the description so they're not hiding it but, again, it's a little disingenuous.

The local area maps look good. DCU has an odd 'You are here' pointer on the map which is odd but otherwise they're very good.

The local maps are designed to be physically put up in the locations concerned - hence the "You are here".

Sadly as per usual with our disjointed transport system the Dún Laoghaire maps have not been updated to reflect the revised bus network in the area.

The lack of a complete public transport network map for Dublin is still outrageous.

I think you're expecting a lot of a schematic map to reflect scale to be honest. Not even the London Underground map does that - significantly over/under stating distances between certain stations.

I think you have to accept that with schematic maps scale tends to be impossible if you want to have clarity.

[comcor]

You should try the Cork Bus Network Map for general rubbishness.

- Three missing routes - 201, 202A, 220X (the 202A runs every 20 mins, so it is not an insignificant route)
- One route that has an archaic routing - 203
- Four that have inaccurate routings - 202, 216, 220 and 226A
- A couple of stops that are featured, but don't have all the route lines going through them - Thomas Davis St is shown on the 207A, but not the 203 or 215. Rochestown Road is shown on the 223 and not the 216. In the case of the first of these, it looks like the nearest the 203 and 215 get is about 4km away.

And it could honestly be worse than that as I don't know what some of the routes do out in the suburbs.

Is there any way to give feedback as it is quite a shoddy job?

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by comcor

Is there any way to give feedback as it is quite a shoddy job?

Many of the maps are on their first editions, so that comment might be harsh. A large part of the problem is the indifference of the operators.

I had asked for the rail map to be created, seeing as you would barely know that two rail networks exist looking at Irish Rail and Luas maps. I'm compiling a list of issues.

Otherwise info@nationaltransport.ie for general issues or passengerinfo@nationaltransport.ie for journey planner issues.

[James Howard]

You can see why there is resistance towards producing overall maps. There is absurd duplication between a lot of the train and tram services and the bus routes. Some of the best bus routes in the city are serving areas already well served by rail.

This is a huge waste of resources - a much better overall service could be provided by using the resources on frequent reliable shuttle services to get people to the trams and trains.

You have the same thing on a national scale with Bus Eireann duplicating Irish Rail services. Competition is a fine thing but not when it's between two companies in the same group.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Howard

You can see why there is resistance towards producing overall maps. There is absurd duplication between a lot of the train and tram services and the bus routes. Some of the best bus routes in the city are serving areas already well served by rail.

This is a huge waste of resources - a much better overall service could be provided by using the resources on frequent reliable shuttle services to get people to the trams and trains.

You have the same thing on a national scale with Bus Eireann duplicating Irish Rail services. Competition is a fine thing but not when it's between two companies in the same group.

Would you care to indicate which routes you're referring to?

[Jamie2k9]

You can see why there is resistance towards producing overall maps. There is absurd duplication between a lot of the train and tram services and the bus routes. Some of the best bus routes in the city are serving areas already well served by rail.

This is a huge waste of resources - a much better overall service could be provided by using the resources on frequent reliable shuttle services to get people to the trams and trains.

You have the same thing on a national scale with Bus Eireann duplicating Irish Rail services. Competition is a fine thing but not when it's between two companies in the same group.

As a transport user I couldn't think of anything worse than a shuttle to a station and then a train. Take way longer than existing bus service and put people back in cars. Yes there is some scope but nothing major.

As for BE, I don't really think they are duplicating that much, aside from the big points on a route they are not and given the pricing difference there will always be a market for a bus along at rain corridor.

BE problems go much deeper to the route of the problems.

[Colm Moore]

Have a read of the attached and I'll add any comments and send it on during the week.

[noelfirl]

I find it quite astonishing that more than 2 years ago the NTA/TFI commissioned an agency to design a comprehensive set of guidelines for the creation of public transport information that would be coherent and unified across various public transport providers:

http://www.transportforireland.ie/transitData/guidelines/Design%20guidelines%20for%20the%20Creation%20of%20 Public%20Transport%20Information_v1.pdf (warning, large PDF)

...and yet, TFI itself is still commissioning and generating maps that don't even come close to complying with these guidelines in any shape or form. Wonderful use of money, that.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

As a transport user I couldn't think of anything worse than a shuttle to a station and then a train. Take way longer than existing bus service and put people back in cars. Yes there is some scope but nothing major.

As for BE, I don't really think they are duplicating that much, aside from the big points on a route they are not and given the pricing difference there will always be a market for a bus along at rain corridor.

BE problems go much deeper to the route of the problems.

Actually I use a shuttlebus to and from Hazelhatch station. I would not be bothered driving - it saves me a fortune in petrol and carparking charges. I also arrived relaxed for work in the mornings, rather than frazzeled if I drove to work, or arrived in an over crowded bus.

[Jamie2k9]

Actually I use a shuttlebus to and from Hazelhatch station. I would not be bothered driving - it saves me a fortune in petrol and carparking charges. I also arrived relaxed for work in the mornings, rather than frazzeled if I drove to work, or arrived in an over crowded bus.

It works there but I don't see it working across the board. Train/bus passengers are very different people.

Anyway didn't you give up getting the train or have they tempted you to stay...

[D08Dave]

Are these maps going to be displayed on trains, trams and at stations?

The current IE maps on Dublin services and at stations are awful and seem to be designed in a dimension to fit the advertising poster frames on trains. Surely these maps could be printed and put on the walls within carriages or on the glass panels that separate the standing and seating areas on Dart and Commuter trains

Also, someone mentioned the design guidelines that TFI have published for provision of public transport information. When are we going to see some of this actually displayed at stations? The lack of consistency in information across the Greater Dublin transport system is ridiculous

[D08Dave]

The Dublin Train and Tram map appears to show quite a distance between Tara Street Station and the Abbey Street and Trinity Luas stops. These are walkable connections and perhaps could be shown on the map if Tara Street was better positioned.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

It works there but I don't see it working across the board. Train/bus passengers are very different people.

Anyway didn't you give up getting the train or have they tempted you to stay...

I had to make my mind up - whether I got 67X straight to the office door (very over crowded) or stay on the train and have my 20min walk to the office each morning (40mins) each day - I chose the healthier option.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by noelfirl

...and yet, TFI itself is still commissioning and generating maps that don't even come close to complying with these guidelines in any shape or form. Wonderful use of money, that.

Funding.

I took part if a project for Cork City bus stops, where the signs generally do comply.

[noelfirl]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

Funding.

I took part if a project for Cork City bus stops, where the signs generally do comply.

Sorry, perhaps to clarify - I mean in the sense that this Dublin Rail & Tram map was made during mid/late 2016. The guidelines for designing maps, timetables, etc. have been in place since 2014. My question is why weren't the guidelines in place used to inform the design of this particular map.

i hope it's not the case that the design agency that will have actually made the map told them that they needed to pay more in order for their own design guidelines to be used. That quite frankly would be ridiculous.

[Colm Moore]

I strongly suspect it was done in-house or an ordinary graphic designer, not a dedicated agency with experience with transport maps.

The NTA only has about 35 staff.

[noelfirl]

Other previous maps have been commissioned to an external agency (Pindar), and there are similarities in this one to those maps.

Either way, internal or externally done, if they've gone to the trouble of commissioning guidelines, they should be adherent to them, particularly on occasions when they are in direct control of the information/maps. If the NTA itself isn't bothering to try and follow it's own guidelines, how can it corral the transport providers to do so?

[Colm Moore]

Luas have published a map for use when Luas Cross City opens.

http://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/dec...s-network-map/