Future of the service = drop in standards - Page 2

PLUMB LOCO · 28-02-2010, 22:56

That's precisely why the 1st class carriage has always been marshalled with the dining car between it and the standard class carriages. Apart from the difficulties that would be caused by moving the catering away from the one part of the train where they still do some business, having a continuous flow of passengers walking through 1st class would disturb the ambience for people paying extra for peace and quiet to work or relax. The way things are going CIE will kill off the demand for 1st class travel at about the same time that Rail Gourmet throws in the towel with rail catering.

When dining cars first evolved they were divided in half by a partition with door - 1st class diners in one end and 2nd/3rd in the other - this continued on right into the 1950s CIE built dining cars. Incidentally, these were the last dining cars to be well thought out and everything else since has been dreadful. The De Dietrich dining cars should win an award for bad design.

Thomas J Stamp · 01-03-2010, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

Never even seen a 22000 diner but I can just imagine!!

its not really a dining carraige, it is just the shop.

anyhow, lets not get into too technical details in this thread.

Basic Questions should centre around catering being of a good standard/affordable and if there is a proper range of catering - that sort of thing.

Mark Gleeson · 01-03-2010, 11:36

The 22k,Mk4 and DD coaches all have a full kitchen on those trains with first class. So any train with first class in the morning or evening peak has food

The problem is, first class usage is in free fall as companies shift business travel to standard or stop traveling altogether. There simply isn't the money to spend on food and the first class fares paid for the catering overheads of providing the food.

ACustomer · 01-03-2010, 14:11

I don't have the exact details, but surely price has a lot to do with the decrease in 1st class patronage. The markup over standard (€20?) appears to be much the same for all journeys: this might be OK Dublin-Cork at peak times, but it's a huge premium to pay for Dublin-Waterford, or for an off-peak ticket, even to Cork.

Traditionally 2st class was 50% premium over 2nd/3rd. I have a feeling that the premium is now effectively 100% for many journeys. And while the financial premium has increased, the comfort premium has drastically diminished.

A classic case of zero martketing awareness. I am sure that there is money to be made fro offering premium services if you give it a bit of thought.

sean · 01-03-2010, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccos

Has anyone tried DB catering on German IC trains, it operates at a good standard, they also have casual guys (& gals) with a small easy to manouvre trolly of drinks and snacks that get on and get off at different stations along the way.

Maybe they could give rail gourmet a few tips on how its done

Ah yes, the BordRestaraunt. I still remember the 1l glass bottle of water, massive ham, mayo and onion baguette and KitKat chunky, all for a very reasonable €7. That was about 5 years ago when I was in Germany.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACustomer

I don't have the exact details, but surely price has a lot to do with the decrease in 1st class patronage. The markup over standard (€20?) appears to be much the same for all journeys: this might be OK Dublin-Cork at peak times, but it's a huge premium to pay for Dublin-Waterford, or for an off-peak ticket, even to Cork.

Perhaps there is some value in 1st class on the Cork (CAF trainsets) and Belfast (DD sets) (I'm not familiar with them, nor what distinguishes their 1st class seats from the normal seats, so I cannot be sure) but from what I've seen in pics, the 1st class on the 22ks is very much 1st class in name only.

I specifically recall from the Mark 2 days in the 1990s on the Sligo line there were first class carriages at some times and the seats were different at least the decor was more grand (e.g. carpet vs. lino flooring), and at least some of the seats were in a 2+1 configuration, i.e. wider seats with 2 on one side of the isle and only 1 on the other, but I think they were airplane seats from the 1970s.

James Howard · 01-03-2010, 18:15

There was first class accommodation on the Sligo line up until 1994 at least - I used to regularly pay the £3 one way supplement on a student fare and get dirty looks from the 2 or 3 suits using it as they expected me to have a row with the ticket collector and leave given I was a grubby student at the time. I didn't really use the train regularly between 1995 and 2003 so I couldn't swear as to when it went away.

I think the steward disappeared somewhere around 1990. The accommodation was a lot better than standard at the time. There was a half car of 2+1 seating with a rather dirty carpet - the main benefit was the relativel level of silence due to the carpet and the lack of rows over games of 25, etc that went on at the time. Once the steward went, there wasn't much point in having it as the ticket collector would rarely get up as far as that car on the (1815 it was then) Friday evening service before Longford so you quite often didn't have to pay at all - let alone pay the extra. I am sure there might have been the odd student who used to buy a single from Sidney Parade into Connolly and take their chance with having to buy the fare on the train but that kind of dishonesty would have never crossed my mind.

I had a hot breakfast on a Sligo train in first class somewhere around 1992 - I can't be exactly sure when but I remember getting a rather posh-looking shiny teapot and tray brought to my table. It was nice but not terribly worth the £12 or so they charged at the time. I only did it once.

davekoolhill · 03-03-2010, 12:01

so sligo DID have a first class and meal service (both breakfast and dinner) on those really old intercitys with the leather seats.

I remember mid 90's IE used to market their meals with the TV ad's (intercity....going faster everyday) and you would see a lad getting served a meal in the dining car..

What other routes had the first class and meals service? did rosslare ever have it...

Mark Gleeson · 03-03-2010, 13:17

There were a limited number of Mk2 coaches with first class, it wasn't until the mid 1990's that the coaches lost the first class in favour of standard

On rare occasions the Dublin Belfast sets of both NIR and IE made it to Rosslare as did a Mk3 set once or twice

PLUMB LOCO · 04-03-2010, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by davekoolhill

so sligo DID have a first class and meal service (both breakfast and dinner) on those really old intercitys with the leather seats.

I remember mid 90's IE used to market their meals with the TV ad's (intercity....going faster everyday) and you would see a lad getting served a meal in the dining car..

What other routes had the first class and meals service? did rosslare ever have it...

My memory and that of James Howard differ on the level of service provided on the Sligo line - I never in all my years of travelling on the the route 1977/98 can recall 1st class in operation let alone meal services at your seat. While the late introduction of MkII vehicles onto the Sligo and Rosslare routes saw the use of some composite 1st/Standard vehicles they were only ever used as standard class - in my memory - and unquestionably on the Rosslare route! The Rosslare route had full catering and 1st class in the 1950's and early 1960s (I think?) - the Harcourt St/Rosslare trains had full dining facilities and I think that those starting from Pearse (Westland Row) did not.

dowlingm · 04-03-2010, 17:18

6 cars are going to be at a premium now because of the two scrapped sets and the one that was broken by the split point incident in Portlaoise. Waterford is also being stuck with 3 car sets so it's not like Sligo is special - except if you count refusing Mark 3s...

Maybe it's time for Sligo County Council to tell its TDs - after the current PSO period is up we can live without Sligo airport's commercial services with its constrained runway, its ecologically sensitive to an extension hinterland and its horrific website on a direct understanding that the PSO money saved by not renewing can go towards rail line speed/passing loop upgrades to reduce journey time and thus the likelihood of starving to death between leaving home and Connolly.

Edit: apparently extending SXL will cost EUR10m

sublimity · 04-03-2010, 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by dowlingm

6 cars are going to be at a premium now because of the two scrapped sets and the one that was broken by the split point incident in Portlaoise. Waterford is also being stuck with 3 car sets so it's not like Sligo is special - except if you count refusing Mark 3s...

Maybe a couple of the mk3 sets could be reinstated onto some lines???
Wishful thinking maybe but it is a solution.

Cork shouldn't have the 22ks. They have mk4s, yes i know some are in Inchicore at the moment but really the mk3s should be filling the void, not 22ks.

Thomas J Stamp · 04-03-2010, 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by sublimity

Maybe a couple of the mk3 sets could be reinstated onto some lines???
Wishful thinking maybe but it is a solution.

Cork shouldn't have the 22ks. They have mk4s, yes i know some are in Inchicore at the moment but really the mk3s should be filling the void, not 22ks.

it should not be wishful thinking, there is no reason why it should not be done

dowlingm · 05-03-2010, 20:38

I've started to think recently that splitting IE into a TOC and a network operator (per EU directive) isn't enough - the entire IE fleet should be flogged to Angel Trains or similar and leased back. At least with the greedy private sector involved the assets will be well sweated before scrappage!

Thomas Ralph · 05-03-2010, 21:15

Having seen the consequences of privatization in Great Britain, I rather doubt I would like to see that happen here.

dowlingm · 06-03-2010, 13:21

Note TR I didn't mean privatisation as a given there. Just that there be complete separation of the entities with the exception of the leasing entity which would mostly likely be private but could also offer 1600mm stock to NIR with the usual changes of safety gear. Repeating the mistake of Railtrack and the renationalisation into Network Rail is not what I had in mind.

ccos · 10-03-2010, 22:42

Quote:

likewise with the dutch rail service

you can get coffee on a dutch train

Its not that guy in the ghostbusters suit?????

01-03-2010, 11:36	#23
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The 22k,Mk4 and DD coaches all have a full kitchen on those trains with first class. So any train with first class in the morning or evening peak has food The problem is, first class usage is in free fall as companies shift business travel to standard or stop traveling altogether. There simply isn't the money to spend on food and the first class fares paid for the catering overheads of providing the food. __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

03-03-2010, 12:01	#27
davekoolhill New to the board Join Date: May 2007 Location: Dublin Posts: 8	first class and dining.. so sligo DID have a first class and meal service (both breakfast and dinner) on those really old intercitys with the leather seats. I remember mid 90's IE used to market their meals with the TV ad's (intercity....going faster everyday) and you would see a lad getting served a meal in the dining car.. What other routes had the first class and meals service? did rosslare ever have it...

03-03-2010, 13:17	#28
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	There were a limited number of Mk2 coaches with first class, it wasn't until the mid 1990's that the coaches lost the first class in favour of standard On rare occasions the Dublin Belfast sets of both NIR and IE made it to Rosslare as did a Mk3 set once or twice __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

04-03-2010, 17:18	#30
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	6 cars are going to be at a premium now because of the two scrapped sets and the one that was broken by the split point incident in Portlaoise. Waterford is also being stuck with 3 car sets so it's not like Sligo is special - except if you count refusing Mark 3s... Maybe it's time for Sligo County Council to tell its TDs - after the current PSO period is up we can live without Sligo airport's commercial services with its constrained runway, its ecologically sensitive to an extension hinterland and its horrific website on a direct understanding that the PSO money saved by not renewing can go towards rail line speed/passing loop upgrades to reduce journey time and thus the likelihood of starving to death between leaving home and Connolly. Edit: apparently extending SXL will cost EUR10m Last edited by dowlingm : 04-03-2010 at 17:25.

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28-02-2010, 22:56	#21
PLUMB LOCO Regular Poster Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 146	That's precisely why the 1st class carriage has always been marshalled with the dining car between it and the standard class carriages. Apart from the difficulties that would be caused by moving the catering away from the one part of the train where they still do some business, having a continuous flow of passengers walking through 1st class would disturb the ambience for people paying extra for peace and quiet to work or relax. The way things are going CIE will kill off the demand for 1st class travel at about the same time that Rail Gourmet throws in the towel with rail catering. When dining cars first evolved they were divided in half by a partition with door - 1st class diners in one end and 2nd/3rd in the other - this continued on right into the 1950s CIE built dining cars. Incidentally, these were the last dining cars to be well thought out and everything else since has been dreadful. The De Dietrich dining cars should win an award for bad design.

01-03-2010, 14:11	#24
ACustomer Really Regular Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 767	I don't have the exact details, but surely price has a lot to do with the decrease in 1st class patronage. The markup over standard (€20?) appears to be much the same for all journeys: this might be OK Dublin-Cork at peak times, but it's a huge premium to pay for Dublin-Waterford, or for an off-peak ticket, even to Cork. Traditionally 2st class was 50% premium over 2nd/3rd. I have a feeling that the premium is now effectively 100% for many journeys. And while the financial premium has increased, the comfort premium has drastically diminished. A classic case of zero martketing awareness. I am sure that there is money to be made fro offering premium services if you give it a bit of thought.

01-03-2010, 18:15	#26
James Howard Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sligo Line Posts: 1,115	There was first class accommodation on the Sligo line up until 1994 at least - I used to regularly pay the £3 one way supplement on a student fare and get dirty looks from the 2 or 3 suits using it as they expected me to have a row with the ticket collector and leave given I was a grubby student at the time. I didn't really use the train regularly between 1995 and 2003 so I couldn't swear as to when it went away. I think the steward disappeared somewhere around 1990. The accommodation was a lot better than standard at the time. There was a half car of 2+1 seating with a rather dirty carpet - the main benefit was the relativel level of silence due to the carpet and the lack of rows over games of 25, etc that went on at the time. Once the steward went, there wasn't much point in having it as the ticket collector would rarely get up as far as that car on the (1815 it was then) Friday evening service before Longford so you quite often didn't have to pay at all - let alone pay the extra. I am sure there might have been the odd student who used to buy a single from Sidney Parade into Connolly and take their chance with having to buy the fare on the train but that kind of dishonesty would have never crossed my mind. I had a hot breakfast on a Sligo train in first class somewhere around 1992 - I can't be exactly sure when but I remember getting a rather posh-looking shiny teapot and tray brought to my table. It was nice but not terribly worth the £12 or so they charged at the time. I only did it once.

05-03-2010, 20:38	#33
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	I've started to think recently that splitting IE into a TOC and a network operator (per EU directive) isn't enough - the entire IE fleet should be flogged to Angel Trains or similar and leased back. At least with the greedy private sector involved the assets will be well sweated before scrappage!

05-03-2010, 21:15	#34
Thomas Ralph IT Officer Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greenwich, London Posts: 1,860	Having seen the consequences of privatization in Great Britain, I rather doubt I would like to see that happen here.

06-03-2010, 13:21	#35
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	Note TR I didn't mean privatisation as a given there. Just that there be complete separation of the entities with the exception of the leasing entity which would mostly likely be private but could also offer 1600mm stock to NIR with the usual changes of safety gear. Repeating the mistake of Railtrack and the renationalisation into Network Rail is not what I had in mind.