Timetable consultation for DART/commuter 2016 now online

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

the mention of election year is apt. the first thing this gov did in connection with rail was allow Alan Kelly play trains in tipperary, now the last thing they are doign is playing trains in dublin because it looks good on an election poster.

what will happen in all,likelihood is that it will be dropped/amended after the election and the unions are being played very well into being blamed for it.

The conspiracy theorist tells me youre right.

Interestingly, last week there was no timetable uploaded for end January onwards, now the current timetable is uoaded upto September.... Interesting .....

[Inniskeen]

Hopefully it has dawned on the relevant parties that the proposed 10 minute interval DART timetable is impractical without unacceptable disruption to InterCity and longer distance users.

Ironically there is little benefit for DART users either as the reduced turn up and go waiting times are substantially eroded by increased journey times. More congestion and smaller peak hour trains would further erode any residual benefit for DART users.

Hopefully the effort will now turn to improving services for all users and in particular to the elimination of half-sized DART trains at peak periods. Better alignment of commuter services with the existing 15 minute interval DART and upsizing some of the DART trains would be a big step forward.

Any significant changes in frequency, other than on the already speed restricted section between Connolly and Grand Canal Dock will require additional tracks and/or overtaking facilities if some degree of service quality is to be maintained.

[Dublin13]

I'd quite happily trade a few mins extra on DART journey times for the fact I can board, the 17:54 at Connolly I was unable to board again tonight to Malahide, along with about 50-60 others. Approx 80-90 people standing in each carriage. I just got the commuter afterwards though happily, but 9/10 if I get that train it's from Clontarf, and it wouldn't have been possible to get the commuter there.

Meanwhile coming into Platform 5 just before the 17:54 heading southbound was an 8 car 8100 class with no more than 15-20 people in each carriage. Really makes you sick. There was more people on one carriage of the four car train than the entire 8 car heading south.

I don't necessarily think a 10 minute dart frequency is needed from my point of view, if they balanced the spread of departures between Malahide and Howth and removed long gaps and aligned capacity properly, there's no need for a service every 10 minutes.

[Mark Gleeson]

Looks like the timetable has been deferred until April

[Jamie2k9]

Unions or NTA that stopped them, hoping for the latter but you never know.

[James Howard]

Well I'm going to have to find another way to get to work. Irish Rail can wave goodbye to their 4 grand from me once my pass expires.

[Mark Gleeson]

We have no confirmation of what the timetable actually will be post April 10 currently.

[James Shields]

@Dublin13... there are other options from Clontarf Road in the period you mention.

For example, you could catch the 18:13 Howth bound DART as far as Howth, and pick up the 18:32 Dundalk train there (8 min wait at HJ).

Or the 18:31 and 18:57 (that one has a 14 min wait at HJ, so not ideal).

However, I think the timetable could be much better designed so that Commutters don't end up chugging all the way to Malahide behind a DART (and there are several other points where a small change to the order of trains would allow Malahide branch passengers to use Howth DART and Commuter combinations, and also avoid delays for Northern line passengers.

[Jamie2k9]

Appears they have kicked the Heuston timetable down the road as well, unlikely before September, at that stage they should do the sensible thing at wait until December and implement it like before.

[Dublin13]

Originally Posted by James Shields

@Dublin13... there are other options from Clontarf Road in the period you mention.

For example, you could catch the 18:13 Howth bound DART as far as Howth, and pick up the 18:32 Dundalk train there (8 min wait at HJ).

Or the 18:31 and 18:57 (that one has a 14 min wait at HJ, so not ideal).

I leave work at 5.30 and can be at Clontarf for about 5.45 without any issue. My morning commute takes me 23 minutes from leaving my house to getting into the office, any of those options is going to add severe time on to the journey, to the point where it takes me at least 3x longer to get home at night to when I leave in the morning. It then becomes much easier to take the care than get the train.

However, I think the timetable could be much better designed so that Commutters don't end up chugging all the way to Malahide behind a DART (and there are several other points where a small change to the order of trains would allow Malahide branch passengers to use Howth DART and Commuter combinations, and also avoid delays for Northern line passengers.

The Howth line is ridiculously over-served. The frequency it gets bears no resplendence to the amount of passengers who actually use it in evening peak, almost all the pax are only going between Kilester and Howth Junction The easy solution is to remove one of the Howth Trains and add the 4 cars to the Malahide train that is overcrowded, freeing up paths and increasing capacity where needed.

Last night there was almost 70-80 people standing per carriage on the 17:54 from Connolly in the four car dart train, the Howth's just before and just after had barely a soul standing and past experience has shown they are almost empty by the time they reach Howth Junction whereas the Malahide ones are full. It's not unknown for passengers going to Malahide via HOWTH Darts alighting at Howth Junction to not be able ot even board at Howth Junction, that is how bad it is.

The 16.02 to Dundalk was stuck behind the 17:54 Malahide DART last night because of the chroni dwell times that DART suffers from because of intense overcrowding because of the fact it should never be a four car. If Irish rail adjusted capacity to demand everyone would get home quicker, but they don't so there are delays a plenty with knock on effect for trains behind.

Don't blame us Malahide passengers, we get a damn raw deal as well, the only people who are getting vastly overserved is Howth, so if there is going to be any fall guy in this it should be them as they have the most slack to give. Both commuter passengers and Malahide branch passengers are being shafted, I totally agree with that, but believe me, if your blaming the Malahide DARTs for running late, you're looking at a symptom of the overall issue rather than the direct cause.

All Irish rail have to do is stick the appropriate number of cars on the Malahide services and you will find the 18:02 commuter would be much more reliable. But they won't andd the Malahide guys who are at DART only station don't have a whole lot of other decent choices that doesn't increase there commute by several times over. The 17:54 Malahide gets later and later by the month as the overcrowding becomes worse and more often

In any case, unless Irish Rail do something in the next few weeks I won't be renewing my annual pass, I'd rather drive than deal with the crazy pantomime in the evening that Irish Rail know about and continue to allow carriages sit idle, despite people passing out in the summer and other trains carrying sweet fresh air.

[Dublin13]

7.07am from Clongriffin is now scheduled to be a 6 car set on Monday's now and an 8 car all other days with effect of last week for operational reasons apparently.

Why they take two cars off it on a Monday I have no idea but February will be the last month of me commuting via Irish Rail as I go back to the car as my annual ticket is up.

After using IE for almost 3 years I can't be bothered with this carry on anymore and with the timetable change kicked further down the road I'll reassess it when it gets implemented.

[Inniskeen]

Peak Departures Northbound.pdf

Just some idea of what could be done with northern line northbound peak period departures Mondays to Fridays - same number of trains but organised to interfere with each other as as little as possible.

A little less overcrowding and improved rather than dis-improved journey times.

[Jamie2k9]

Does Belfast fit into those plans without impacting?

[Inniskeen]

Just an extract, 1650 unchanged, 1900 departs 1905 and recovers 4 minutes to Drogheda and 1 minute thereafter.

[Dublin13]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

Attachment 1613 A little less overcrowding and improved rather than dis-improved journey times.

Not acceptable to Malahide branch passengers the minimum that needs to happen for any kind of acceptable service is;

17;58 ex Clontarf to be increased from cars.
The placement of a train between 17:58 and 18:46 ideally removing a Howth or getting a single commuter to call at Clontarf.

I agree the previous timetable published was unworkable but so is this one. I'm very sorry that commuter passengers are getting delayed by us people on the Malahide branch, but for some of us there is no train at all because we can't board which makes our evening commutes 2-3x longer than the morning.

[Jamie2k9]

The placement of a train between 17:58 and 18:46 ideally removing a Howth or getting a single commuter to call at Clontarf.

Is this to suit you or is there a genuine flow of commuter traffic from Clontarf towards Malahide?

[James Shields]

I'm reluctant to post fantasy timetables, because it's very easy to come up with timetables that seem perfectly sensible to us, but we can never take into account all the operational issues that have to be factored into a real world timetable.

However, have a look at the northbound movements through Connolly in the peak evening commuting period:

Time Gap Destination
16:50 Belfast
16:51 00:01 Drogheda
16:54 00:03 Malahide
17:08 00:14 Howth
17:21 00:13 Dundalk
17:24 00:03 Howth
17:39 00:15 Malahide
17:47 00:08 Maynooth
17:54 00:07 Howth
18:05 00:11 Drogheda
18:08 00:03 Howth
18:23 00:15 Drogheda
18:27 00:04 Howth
18:40 00:13 Drogheda
18:42 00:02 Malahide
18:47 00:05 Maynooth
18:53 00:06 Howth
19:00 00:07 Belfast

I'm counting 6 gaps of over 10 minutes, and two of 15 minutes. It should be possible to fit at least 6, and possibly 8 extra trains through Connolly while maintaining the 5 minute gaps required by the signalling system.

It should be possible to fit extra extra train paths to allow 6 DARTs per hour without massive increases to train times. Is the problem that "every 10 mins" is too inflexible? If the extra trains were added a little more flexibly, with a little of clustering of DARTs and some slightly longer gaps to allow longer distance trains to get through without completely ruining journey times. I think DART customers would appreciate the extra services, even if it's not quite a 10 minute frequency. Off-peak services could more easily achieve something closer to a 10 minute service.

I also think that overcrowding on commuter services needs to be looked at. It wouldn't be hard to have a 4-car semi-express service running ahead of the busier northern line services, perhaps with stops in Balbriggan, Laytown and Drogheda, easing some of the demand on the stopping service following. I'm sure something similar on the Maynooth line would also be sensible.

Of course, extra services cost money, and I suspect the government subvention isn't likely to be increased any time soon.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Dublin13

Not acceptable to Malahide branch passengers the minimum that needs to happen for any kind of acceptable service is;

17;58 ex Clontarf to be increased from cars.
The placement of a train between 17:58 and 18:46 ideally removing a Howth or getting a single commuter to call at Clontarf.

I agree the previous timetable published was unworkable but so is this one. I'm very sorry that commuter passengers are getting delayed by us people on the Malahide branch, but for some of us there is no train at all because we can't board which makes our evening commutes 2-3x longer than the morning.

You keep saying that there is no option between 17:58 and 18:46 from Clontarf Road for Malahide line passengers.

However there is an alternative - you could get on the 18:13 to Howth as far as Howth Junction and change there for stations to Malahide with an eight minute connection at Howth Junction.

No it's not ideal, but it is a valid option.

[Dublin13]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

Is this to suit you or is there a genuine flow of commuter traffic from Clontarf towards Malahide?

It's because people are getting left behind on the 17:58 because they are unable to board the train, even people get left behind at Connolly on a regular basis by that train.

[Dublin13]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

You keep saying that there is no option between 17:58 and 18:46 from Clontarf Road for Malahide line passengers.

However there is an alternative - you could get on the 18:13 to Howth as far as Howth Junction and change there for stations to Malahide with an eight minute connection at Howth Junction.

A piss poor option at that. I Finish work at 5.30. My morning commute takes me 30 minutes from my door to the office. If I did what you said. it would be almost 1hr 15 mins in the evening.

I'd be waiting longer at Clontarf for a train than I spent door to door in the morning commute. But don't worry, someone on the Howht branch can get a bank of four seats to themselves with trains every 10-15 minutes.

No it's not ideal, but it is a valid option.

An even better option is the car with evening commute times like that because IE can't provide a proper level of service my car can.

Alternatively Irish Rail could just sling another two cars on the 17:58 and everyone can board. But that would make far too much sense.

The only time it happened to be more than four cars was when someone was doing a survey was on there about the service. Funny that.