Timetable consultation for DART/commuter 2016 now online

[Inniskeen]

Presumeably the choice is either stop everything or nothing at Lisburn, insert some more padding for trains that don't stop at Lisburn or do not go clockface. Alternatively abandon the vain and unnecessary 10 min off peak DART service.

As it happens I was in Portadown yesterday and NIR were supplementing their regular hourly service to Belfast with express services. From Belfast in the evening between 1600 and1930 there were 9 services to Portadown. From Dublin, yesterday, there were just 4 services to Drogheda during the same period. Five of the Portadown services were expresses compared to two of the Drogheda services. On. Saturdays, from Pirtadown, there is a half hourly service and in addition to the Dublin service there are no less than 16 expresses in either direction. In Drogheda, apart from the Belfast trains, there are no fast services. Still I am sure Irish Rail have it right, stuff the place with slow moving DARTs and have everybody travel at 20 mph - the obvious way to grow business and revenue ?

[Dublin13]

The drivers don't particularly want the new DART timetable either
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...vity-1.2465984

[Mark Gleeson]

They are never happy and never will be.

Its always fun to ask a Union busy body do they know what the big space in the equipment rack in the cab is for.

Can't wait until someone finally has the balls in Irish Rail to tender for the automatic driving equipment, let see what the unions think then

[Dublin13]

They only ever talk about benchmarking when it's in their favour as well, that is what always amused me and the only reason they are calling for it is for this reason. They will want all the things that they feel they don't have the best of benchmarks, but without benchmarking anything that is better.

If there was to be overall benchmarking over the whole CIE group, those in the other two companies in the group would be very unhappy and say how unfair it is and how it will negatively impact their terms and condition and ability to earn a living and an appropriate standard of life.

It's all smoke and mirrors as usual, anyone who is paid less than them in the same industry is underpaid, anyone who is paid a higher rate in the same industry has the correct pay and anyone who is not in an operational customer facing role is vastly overpaid.

No doubt if any mention of tendering services is mentioned drivers will plough the usual line about the service needing to stay public else greedy fat cat shareholders will attempt to try and profit from it at the expense of the service and public services should be run for the benefit of the public and not private interest, whilst the very same people continue to put their own private interests ahead of the same public. Talk about ironic.

The fact that the first thing that happens when a big increase in DART frequency is proposed is the staff basically say it's not going to happen unless they get their own way speaks volumes about who the company is truly run for.

No doubt that old chestnut "Safety" will be brought up in the discussions in some way if they need to drum up a bit of support.

[Jamie2k9]

Perhaps the new drivers haven't applied to be NBRU members and that's his real problem

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Dublin13

The drivers don't particularly want the new DART timetable either
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...vity-1.2465984

I never take much notice about what any union says in public as that is just posturing. It's all just optics.

The real position and negotiations take place behind closed doors.

[Inniskeen]

There are a lot of optics around the proposed timetable !

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

But something like €170m was spent extending platforms to accommodate 8-car DARTs on the basis that the only practical way to increase capacity was to increase train size. Now it has been decided that that strategy was wrong and a frequent service of smaller slower DARTs on a deficient infrastructure is going to do the business. The impact on other services is deemed to be irrelevant. The proposed timetable is a bit like having a motorway with one carriageway per direction and insisting that all traffic must follow an ass and cart.

well not really. they havent decided that it was wrong (they'll point out the DMU's using them for example) they'll say that they have been prevented from using them properly through cutbacks, delays to the great cross river re signalling project, cancelling DART underground et all...

but even so it seems from what we are seeing here is that its not exactly the number of units they have, but how they are being allocated.

[Dublin13]

Unable to board the 5.54pm 4 car DART to Malahide from Connolly due to severe over-crowding once more. Happy I left work early to do some shopping and wasn't waiting at Clontarf, at least I could get the commuter to Dundalk from Connolly.

There was approx 50 people at Connolly who tried to board who were not able to with various sighs and comments about four cars at peak times being unacceptable and that yet again they were unable to board.

Of course, a few minutes before a six car Howth came with many seats free and a 4 car Howth with a few seats free came a few minutes afterwards, really shows the joke that it is having 2 Malahide DARTS in 90 minutes whilst having 5 Howths in just 60 minutes!

[Inniskeen]

Am I mistaken in thinking that there are actually two four car DARTs one after the other northbound from Connolly, at 1747 and 1754, the first relatively lightly loaded and the second heavily overcrowded. Assumming that "all carriages are in use" at this time, would it not make sense to combine the two trains into an 8 car set and run this to Malahide. This would reduce overcrowding a little as well as reducing congestion.

[Dublin13]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

Am I mistaken in thinking that there are actually two four car DARTs one after the other northbound from Connolly, at 1747 and 1754, the first relatively lightly loaded and the second heavily overcrowded. Assumming that "all carriages are in use" at this time, would it not make sense to combine the two trains into an 8 car set and run this to Malahide. This would reduce overcrowding a little as well as reducing congestion.

It's a little more crazy than that, this is the way it normally is

17:24 Malahide (6 cars)
17:28 Howth (6 cars)
17:39 Howth (4 cars)
17:47 Howth (6 cars)
17:54 Malahide (4 cars)
18:08 Howth (4 cars)
18:27 Howth (6 cars)
18:42 Malahide (4 cars)
18:53 Howth (6 cars)
19:08 Malahide (8 cars)

The laughable thing is after the 17:54 which you can't always board there is the biggest gap of peak of 48 minutes and when a train does eventually come it's 4 cars and just as overcrowded as the previous 4 car train. Then the next train has the shortest gap of the whole of peak on the branch (26 minutes) and it has the same capacity of the previous two trains combined when it's not needed.

Lets not mention the fact pretty much all of those Howth trains would struggle to fill two carriages after Howth Junction whilst after Howth Junction the Malahide DARTs are absolutely jammed, still. A couple of times I have seen people unable to board a train to Malahide at Howth Junction because it's still full. Thankfully that has not happened since the summer though.

This is why the 17:54 and 18:42 trains always are at least 5 minutes late and mostly nearer 10 and always delays the commuters behind because of the awful dwell times.

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Dublin13

It's a little more crazy than that, this is the way it normally is

17:24 Malahide (6 cars)
17:28 Howth (6 cars)
17:39 Howth (4 cars)
17:47 Howth (6 cars)
17:54 Malahide (4 cars)
18:08 Howth (4 cars)
18:27 Howth (6 cars)
18:42 Malahide (4 cars)
18:53 Howth (6 cars)
19:08 Malahide (8 cars)

The laughable thing is after the 17:54 which you can't always board there is the biggest gap of peak of 48 minutes and when a train does eventually come it's 4 cars and just as overcrowded as the previous 4 car train. Then the next train has the shortest gap of the whole of peak on the branch (26 minutes) and it has the same capacity of the previous two trains combined when it's not needed.

Lets not mention the fact pretty much all of those Howth trains would struggle to fill two carriages after Howth Junction whilst after Howth Junction the Malahide DARTs are absolutely jammed, still. A couple of times I have seen people unable to board a train to Malahide at Howth Junction because it's still full. Thankfully that has not happened since the summer though.

This is why the 17:54 and 18:42 trains always are at least 5 minutes late and mostly nearer 10 and always delays the commuters behind because of the awful dwell times.

But there are trains at 1802 (Dundalk, viciously overcrowded and almost always late) and 1823 (Drogheda). Both of these serve stations between Howth Junction and Malahide.

[Dublin13]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

But there are trains at 1802 (Dundalk, viciously overcrowded and almost always late) and 1823 (Drogheda). Both of these serve stations between Howth Junction and Malahide.

Not much help to someone who commutes from Clontarf like myself or further up the line and can't board which is my main gripe since I can't always make the proceeding Howth train and changee at Howth Junction.

It doesn't surprise me that the commuter is overcrowded, a good few of those people would be people who tried to take the proceeding Malahide DART at Pearse or Tara Street and couldn't board which also happens.

In the last six months on the DART we are talking about I've seen people been unable to board at Pearse, Tara Street, Clontarf and Connolly all whilst Howth's continue to carry thing air.

There have also been occasions at Connolly in the summer where it has been impossible to board the 1802 commuter as well.

The 1908 is the reading herring of them all, it should have at least two cars removed, I know people will moan about the southside will lose out, but every train serves every station on the Southside apart from Greystones, unlike the north.

If people cannot board a train on a much lower frequency than a destination which has lots more trains and is carrying thin air, there is a complete mismatch between capacity and demand.

[Dublin13]

Latest from unions
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1223/755...ption-warning/

The Rosters are unworkable it's claimed.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Dublin13

Latest from unions
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1223/755...ption-warning/

The Rosters are unworkable it's claimed.

Again this is all posturing - the real discussions will take place behind closed doors.

It's the union leadership being seen to be "doing something".

As I've said before - I generally take what is said publically with a grain of salt.

[Eddie]

Logically it doesn't make sense to increase the dart frequency if your journey time increases by more than 2.5 minutes.

On average, with a fifteen minute frequency and assuming you just turn up and go, you will have to wait 7.5 minutes.

On average, with a ten minute frequency and assuming you just turn up and go, you will have to wait 5 minutes.

So you gain on average 2.5 minutes, which is lost entirely if the journey time is extended by more than this.

And that excludes any other disadvantages of increased frequency like slower commuter services, frustrated drivers at level crossing barriers that are down for longer, cost of additional drivers.

[James Howard]

In an election year, logic has very little to do with it. 10 minute DART frequency looks good on an election leaflet and neither politicians nor media are good with details like average end-to-end journey times. You also didn't mention the cost of frustrated truck drivers hitting barriers which will become at least a weekly event if the barriers spend 3 minutes of every 5 down.

At least this timetable change has prompted me to make serious efforts to serious reduce or entirely end my 4 day a week long-distance commute. After 12 years, I can't take another 20 minutes being added to my day. I'm hopeful I can say goodbye to my pass at renewal time in August.

[ACustomer]

Eddie, James Howard:

The more I think of it the more stupid is this fixation on a 10-minute DART service all day. On commuter routes just about everywhere, frequency (and capacity) is related to demand, i.e. to the morning and evening peaks mainly. LUAS is 3 to 4 minutes in the morning peak and anything from 6 to 15 minutes off-peak. That's the normal way of doing things everywhere, except apparently in the Wonderland of DART.

Even worse, a huge amount of money has been spent a few years ago enabling the operation of 8-carriage DARTs. Now the strategy seems to be for more frequent trains, very often 4 or 6 carriages. This is a straightforward waste of track capacity. James Howard refers to faster DART time making things more attractive for passengers. True, and it also enables more frequent trains. Trying to fit in very frequent trains and simultaneously timetabling slower trains is a very inefficient use of track capacity.

And having the same service interval between 8 and 9am as you have between 9 and 10pm is pure madness.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by James Howard

In an election year, logic has very little to do with it. 10 minute DART frequency looks good on an election leaflet and neither politicians nor media are good with details like average end-to-end journey times. You also didn't mention the cost of frustrated truck drivers hitting barriers which will become at least a weekly event if the barriers spend 3 minutes of every 5 down.

At least this timetable change has prompted me to make serious efforts to serious reduce or entirely end my 4 day a week long-distance commute. After 12 years, I can't take another 20 minutes being added to my day. I'm hopeful I can say goodbye to my pass at renewal time in August.

I feel the same - I have had the Taxsaver Short Hop Rail for the last umpteen years and between journey time increasing and certain trains running late it makes sense for me now to switch to Dublin Bus Taxsaver as I can get into work quicker.

[Thomas J Stamp]

the mention of election year is apt. the first thing this gov did in connection with rail was allow Alan Kelly play trains in tipperary, now the last thing they are doign is playing trains in dublin because it looks good on an election poster.

what will happen in all,likelihood is that it will be dropped/amended after the election and the unions are being played very well into being blamed for it.