[24-04-2007] Evening herald article on Broadstone station

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Gary

Is there not a shortage or potential shortage of rails on the northern route from Connolly to Howth Junction esp with possible Dart to Balbrigan and new station at Donahmeade? There was talk before of widening that to 4 lines from 2.

But they won't be going through Connolly anymore

[Gary]

Ah you're just talking about City Centre?

Was figuring would still be a need to have at least one extra line north of Clontarf Rd to increase flow of trains from Belfast, Dundalk, Balbrigan, Howth at peak times.

[James Shields]

Broadstone may be beautiful architecturally, but that doesn't matter to a commuter who's been stranded there and needs to get to work on the other side of town. This sort of thing may have been just about acceptable when the "city centre" stretched from O'Connell St to Stephen's Green, but it now takes in the IFSC, Grand Canal Dock, the Digital Hub, and quite a few other places that slip my mind.

We need to get away from the "terminates in An Lar" mode of thinking to one where multiple high frequency routes criss-cross, making it easy to hop form one to another to get where we need to be, easily, quickly and cheaply.

Adding new termini to the city centre is not going to achieve this, nor is erecting barriers to routes that have already been published in T21. Someone needs to make ti very clear to everyone involved that this sort of messing will not be tolerated, as the mere suggestion could put back Luas to Finglas by years.

[ThomasJ]

I think mark is right about a possible political involvement. I think bertie has been told in other words. We are in crisis . Our trains are crammed and we have no space. We have to use what limited resources we have to resolve this and unless you know of another way (fast track the inter connector.) we have no choice but to use broadstone. Is broadstone in bertie constituency? Bear in mind bertie was contacted not martin cullen. Broadstone is going through a major regeneration project and will look wonderful when finished with d i t etc. I think broadstone is being used as a bargaining tool at the moment in this election year

[Mark Gleeson]

Think you got it, it is in Berties patch

Fact is Broadstone won't make any difference, facts

Best case the Maynooth line can push 12 trains an hour currently its limited to 8 until its resignalled. Connolly can take 5 of them in some way possibly 6, that leaves 6-7 and with 2 platforms Docklands can take them fairly easily.

QED Broadstone will not provide any additional capacity

FACT 12 8 coach trains is 96 coaches current allocation is about 50, so 46 more coaches needed at least

[ThomasJ]

The answer to this is probably no but Is there anyway for Iarnrod eireann to run trains from broadstone to pearse-bray etc. could the track be amended for them to be able to do so.

I personally think that this is the gem of the Broadstone line amongst all the major development in the phibsboro/grangegorman/broadstone area and I think may have an impact on the final outcome.


http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.as...404&docID=3054

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

The answer to this is probably no but Is there anyway for Iarnrod eireann to run trains from broadstone to pearse-bray etc. could the track be amended for them to be able to do so.

Unless you have about 3 billion for a tunnel to Sandymount nope

[ThomasJ]

Then it is really pointless. students can use this to get into town unless they go to Broombridge and change platforms and get a train back into town.

The only passengers that are going to use this is students from Maynooth/longford/pace/navan. People are going to interchange and use maynooth trains citybound not helping things?

Having said that can you image the options for students on the maynooth line if it was being planned.

Access to:
NUI Maynoooth
DCU
Trinity
DIT
As well as interchange for UCD (Dart)

Still not convinced though!!

[Gary]

On that Map at Glasnevin Junction its looks like there is an old line that could be used to bring the Phoneix Park line onto the midland line? If so could that be reopened in the short term to allow Kildare direct access to Docklands?

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Gary

On that Map at Glasnevin Junction its looks like there is an old line that could be used to bring the Phoneix Park line onto the midland line? If so could that be reopened in the short term to allow Kildare direct access to Docklands?

Its possible but expensive and offers little really in return. The entire plan was that trains Maynooth Docklands would run in parallel with Kildare Docklands thus using idle capacity without the need to change Glasnevin otherwise its a nightmare with trains crossing all over the place

[Gary]

Ok thanks Mark.

So long and short of it until the interconnector/ spencer dock is built Kildare is going stay at Heuston?

Fear I have with the T21 plan is if economy slows down and takings at the revenue box office are down the whole plan could get put on ice and we're left with docklands being underutilised.

[Mark]

In Metro North V Interconnector, the IE tunnel is the weakest link.

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gary

Fear I have with the T21 plan is if economy slows down and takings at the revenue box office are down the whole plan could get put on ice and we're left with docklands being underutilised.

Exactly Gary. Sensible use of the money would have ensured that Docklands was connected to both the Maynooth and Kildare line. The reasons given by IE are varied, but the one that keeps surfacing is connecting both lines would have affected the building of the Interconnector due to a revised location for the current Docklands station. Now considering the site was brownfield, anything was possible.

I often fear that the interconnector was placed so far down the list of priorities that any down turn in economic conditions will see it shelved. Same goes for Navan. But I digress. Having the Kildare line running to Docklands would relieve the pressure on Heuston and the Luas red line to Connolly. Us
ing the Phoenix park tunnel is a valid, credible and worthwhile short term solution. It also opens up the Cabra/Blackhorse ave areas. Don't be surprised if theres a bid rush to do it in 2012, when everyone realises the interconnector isnt happening. By then, it will already be to late. If we keep adding stations and four tracking the Kildare line, only the interconnector will aid keeping pace.

[Mark]

There are many cheaper alternatives to building the Interconnector like Derek mentioned but nothing will give the DART the scale of city centre penetration that the underground stations in St. Stephen's Green and Christchurch/Liberties etc. will give it.

It is an enormous and expensive project but no matter what other stations are opened (Docklands, Broadstone, Mater etc.) and no matter what lines are reopened (Midland, Phoenix Park etc.) it will always be the only long term solution to integration of the rail lines in Dublin.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Exactly Gary. Sensible use of the money would have ensured that Docklands was connected to both the Maynooth and Kildare line. The reasons given by IE are varied, but the one that keeps surfacing is connecting both lines would have affected the building of the Interconnector due to a revised location for the current Docklands station. Now considering the site was brownfield, anything was possible.

I often fear that the interconnector was placed so far down the list of priorities that any down turn in economic conditions will see it shelved. Same goes for Navan. But I digress. Having the Kildare line running to Docklands would relieve the pressure on Heuston and the Luas red line to Connolly. Us
ing the Phoenix park tunnel is a valid, credible and worthwhile short term solution. It also opens up the Cabra/Blackhorse ave areas. Don't be surprised if theres a bid rush to do it in 2012, when everyone realises the interconnector isnt happening. By then, it will already be to late. If we keep adding stations and four tracking the Kildare line, only the interconnector will aid keeping pace.

But again Derek the only way would be to rebuild the track at Glasnevin Juntion to allow a straight run from Heuston to the Midland Line to Docklands? The other option being a zig zag approach on existing junctions using two drivers, might work on the Riobamba line in Ecuador but dont' think the irish commutter would be too pleased!

Yea I agree with constructions responsible for 25% of the revenue takings it doesn't take Carol Voderman to work out the numbers mightn't stack if its long fingered.

[Derek Wheeler]

But again Derek the only way would be to rebuild the track at Glasnevin Juntion to allow a straight run from Heuston to the Midland Line to Docklands? The other option being a zig zag approach on existing junctions using two drivers, might work on the Riobamba line in Ecuador but dont' think the irish commutter would be too pleased!

Rebuilding the track at Glasnevin junction looks like a non-runer. An IE manager did say to a P11 member early last year, that changing the junction cost money that the Government didn't want to part with. That said, IE managers are about as trustworthy as the artful dodger. Subsequently, it appears that putting in a scissors crossing at Glasnevin junction (which would enable connecting the PPT line to the Midland line) would cause a possible conflict of movements. I don't accept this personally. With modern signalling systems it shouldn't be a problem. Others here will explain it better. Im just a believer in solutions not obstacles to solutions.

[Mark Gleeson]

The simplest, cheapest and best solution is to buy a small chunk of a unused industrial plot at the back of Ossery Rd and join the Druncondra line to Docklands station, solves the whole problem also means Kildare trains can stop in Drumcondra which is very useful for the north city

Glasnevin Junction is way too messy costs would be more than that of Docklands station and it would be a mess to operate with trains continuously crossing against each other which in turn means fewer trains can travel through the junction, the radical solution of course is to dump everyone from Maynooth in Docklands and run Kildare Connolly, won't go down well and is the inverse of the interconnector plan

Signalling technology has advanced dramatically but the basic rules stay the same

[CSL]

Mark, what was the previous solution, how did [ now gone "Spencer Dock" ] North Wall freight depot trains get to the tunnel ?

[Mark]

Originally the temp station was to be east of where it currently stands and that site would have been accessed by both the midland and Drumcondra lines.