Metro North Route

[Vbold]

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That last line actually made me shudder because it the kind of comment we heard out of North Mayo for the last couple of years by people who simply refused to listen to any facts, reason or unbaised reports.

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Now that is ridiculous. We are in the planning stage of a huge infrastructure project and as local residents we are allowed to voice any concerns we have with the proposals and criticise any plans which will impact on our standard of living.

Of course you are right in suggesting it has to be an overall view and that the metro will benefit a great number of people, locals alike, but as we will be facing the greatest impact during constructing and afterwards with the finished design then it is up to us to ensure that we make the RPA listen to our concerns and not provide the cheapest option which may or may not severely impact our living conditions.

As you are aware now legislation has been introduced which will speed up the planning process for large infrastructure projects and there is a standard appeal process incorporated. This process will have a set time schedule and the outcome will be final, I am not looking to drag it out any longer than this but the necessary time is required to be spent on the design issues i.e. now.

Of course you will always have people objecting to change and I have no problem with that, sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong but they have the right to object and to have a reply on the concerns they raise and if possible allowed to contribute to the design.

The objections to the elevated structure I believe are totally warranted and raise very valid points, these must be addressed and to be fair I believe they are. The final design solution will not be to everyone’s satisfaction and compromises must be made on all sides but that does not mean substandard, badly designed or cheap solution must be accepted

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

I went to many Discos in the sheds, Nige, and we stored our bonfire stuff there as well. I also used to hide my crossbow there away from my folks, but that's for another thread.

Yeah, I know, I know... 81st CBSI troop Sillogue Road. Been there, done that got the merit badge for starting a fire by burning sofas. I think I was even a member of the Communist Youth Group in one of them as well trying to get the posters of Marxs and Engles to stay on the condensation-filled walls with capitalist Blu-Tac. Oh, I went to 'The Grove' in Fairview as soon as I decided to womanise my way up the social ladder instead as soon as I realised 'Das Kapital' was a load of rubbish. (I can see some demented lunatic filing the above paragraph for his dossier on me for future release on IRN or Boards.ie as proof that my stance on the Burma Road are not to be listened to.)

Anyways...

Back to the point I was making. The line can be elevated through Ballymun and still be right. This is not a major issue.

Underground, I agree would be better, but not if it adds years to the project and remember this could by default add years also to the Interconnector and MetroWest as well. So we are playing for much higher stakes here than just MetroNorth as well.

I also suspect, that half the reason the stations in Ballymun are being elevated is tso the Skangers and Hoodies can't cause mayhem in them as they won't be hidden undergroud. I think this is a good, intelligent idea and I am not insulted by this as I hate Skangers and Hoodies as well. The viaduct the RPA are putting up is not that horrible, nor will be obscuring any views which anybody would miss.

Using terms "as long as it takes" is a recipe for years and years of delays and chances are the elevated option will still get built at the end of the circus - so it'll be all for nothing and the country as a whole will be denied a vital rail link to it's busiest airport for years when it could have been in service - not to mention the knock on effects this could have on the Interconnector and MetroWest in terms of delays. Not good.

[Thomas J Stamp]

It appears to be one stop only in Ballymun, at the Civic Plaza, according the RPA document.

The issue is cost, and cost alone. If underground is being used for the nice areas of middle class Dublin then it should be used for Ballymun as well, otherwise put the entire thing on stilts.

It is the same old story, but instead of Dublin Corporation we now have the RPA.

You will get Hoodies, Skangers or whatever delinquents are called when it is built, anywhere, not a valid reason for going on stilts, is it?

The viaduct the RPA are putting up is not that horrible, nor will be obscuring any views which anybody would miss.

You dont know that, the only guide they have given is the photgraph i have hyperlinked above, and it is horrible. As you can see there are plenty of places underneath there for your Skangers and Hoodies to congregate at night under the warm orange glow of a neon street light.

As for it having a knock on effect on other areas, not neccessarilty. Once it is agreed the from it'll take an appropriate time frame will be given and you can work form that.

Putting it on stilts or hanging the fecking thing from balloons could equally get into overruns.

[Derek Wheeler]

Platform 11 representatives met with the RPA and they willingly revealed the route and proposed engineering specs for Metro North before they were made public. We revealed the Ballymun side of things in the first post of this thread as follows and based on my notes from the meeting.

# DCU
Station in shallow cutting, so may be unmanned. Line continues in shallow cutting, under Collins Avenue and then at grade along the central median of current road through Ballymun.

# Ballymun
RPA are currently working with Ballymun redevelopment on station location and exact route through the centre of Ballymun. Line will run along the east side of existing link road to M50.

There will be no elevated metro through Ballymun. So lads, I suggest you condense your discussion to the pros and cons of "at grade" through Ballymun or "underground" through Ballymun. All this talk of an elevated metro is old hat and disappeared from the radar shortly after the public consultation phase.

And by the way, make the discussion quick as all infrastructural topics are being moved to the members section.

[Thomas J Stamp]

There will be no elevated metro through Ballymun.

Problem is that it is still an option according to the document issued by the RPA yesterday on their website, so as they havent rules it out we have to discuss it.

And by the way, make the discussion quick as all infrastructural topics are being moved to the members section.

Correct, this here thread will be departing for the members section today.

[Thomas J Stamp]

We are seeking clarification from the RPA re this. The appearance on their site of stilts goes against what they said to us.

Looking at the link and also Google Earth it seems to be that they have used incorrect terminology to describe the route so far.

Using the pink line on Google Earth as a guide it appears that the route must be underground as far as the ESB buildings (opp the Library) and not cut and cover from DCU ( there are two housing estates in the way) where a TBM must come out (or in). The additional costs for going underground to Santry Ave cannot be that much.

It also appears that the DCU stop is a looong way away from the current buildings.

Going by what the RPA say, no matter what method is used, they must come out of the ground at the Junction of Ballymun Road/Glasnevin Avenue and approach it from the south east as they mention going under Colins Avenue. This suggests the line on Google Earth is wrong (dont know who did it) and further suggests that they must tunnel under Albert College Estate.

This makes no sense at all if they refuse to tunnel further.

[Brian Condron]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

We are seeking clarification from the RPA re this. The appearance on their site of stilts goes against what they said to us.

Call me cynical but I get the impression that at a lot of public consulations there is a sacrificial option, one that the public will turn down outright. So it's easier to get the other options through, ie. cut and cover will be a pain being built, but at least it will be hidden on completion. Not like that "stilts" option.

EDIT: Man, do I make some stupid spelling mistakes

[Vbold]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

Using the pink line on Google Earth as a guide it appears that the route must be underground as far as the ESB buildings (opp the Library) and not cut and cover from DCU ( there are two housing estates in the way) where a TBM must come out (or in). The additional costs for going underground to Santry Ave cannot be that much.

they must come out of the ground at the Junction of Ballymun Road/Glasnevin Avenue and approach it from the south east as they mention going under Colins Avenue. This suggests the line on Google Earth is wrong (dont know who did it) and further suggests that they must tunnel under Albert College Estate.

This makes no sense at all if they refuse to tunnel further.

Thomas, it would be possible to do a cut and cover from the DCU stop right into ballymun. The TBM can tunnel in/at in Hamsted park, travel from there into the central meridian of ballymun road at the scout hall and then traverse the collins rado/ ballymun road/ glasnevin ave junction. In terms of bringing the tunnel up in a 300m radius of the junction this would be the only suitable open space.

Can you post the link to the "pink line in google earth" as i'd like to have a look

ta

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Vbold

Thomas, it would be possible to do a cut and cover from the DCU stop right into ballymun. The TBM can tunnel in/at in Hamsted park, travel from there into the central meridian of ballymun road at the scout hall and then traverse the collins rado/ ballymun road/ glasnevin ave junction. In terms of bringing the tunnel up in a 300m radius of the junction this would be the only suitable open space.

Can you post the link to the "pink line in google earth" as i'd like to have a look

ta

Yes, sure, if it werent for that fact that the RPA keep saying that the trams will emergre from underneath Collins Avenue at Stormonstown house, they dont say the trams will emerge at Hampstead.

"Pink line":

[Navan Junction]

I don't want to sound like I don't understand the concerns, but I'd be careful about making too much of an issue about this.

A Metro would really be the making of Ballymun - it's not long since that brutal roundabout with banger buses running around it was the main feature on that road.

Think of Dominc Hannigan and his Ratoath deviation - all of a sudden a certain route was up in the air, and is one of the main excuses avoiding moving the project along at any pace.

Question is would a viaduct really be worth the project being delayed (and possibly mothballed if there is an economic downturn)?

Honestly speaking, I could see myself and others from Meath using it btw, crazy as that may sound - 17 mins to Stephen's Green from anywhere along the M50 is nothing to be sneezed at..

[ccos]

Lots of the Amsterdam Metro is elevated and much of it built quiet recently
The new north south line thru the city centre is being built by cut & cover and is causing Huge disruption in the City and putting everyone off ever building another metro line

[al2637]

Originally Posted by ccos

Lots of the Amsterdam Metro is elevated and much of it built quiet recently
The new north south line thru the city centre is being built by cut & cover and is causing Huge disruption in the City and putting everyone off ever building another metro line

A lot of the A'dam metro also runs at grade, intersecting with roads. Not such a big deal. Couldn't we do this in Ballymun?

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

They do things correctly in Holland. They do not have the "East Glasnevin" brigade either which helps a lot too.

I reckon this 11th hour rush to NIMBYise MetroNorth we are looking at another 5 years on both the Interconnector and Navan Rail link.

I'll go back to my crayons, far more based on reality than some of NIMBY-for-the-sake-of-it rubbish posted on this thread in recent days.

[Navan Junction]

Tim O'Brien, Irish Times, Fri, Feb 02, 2007

Minister for Transport Martin Cullen has said major projects in Transport 21, including the proposed new metros for Dublin, are to undergo a new evaluation process to be set up by Government.

Addressing the annual dinner of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport in Dublin last night, Mr Cullen responded to criticism from Opposition politicians and economic commentators that the financial case for some multimillion-euro projects, particularly metro west, had not been established.

Mr Cullen said current methods to evaluate projects costing more than €30 million "will be put on a more structured basis". He revealed a tender competition is currently under way to select consultants to undertake an annual audit of major schemes, assessing their compliance with Department of Finance guidelines and "particularly review their capital appraisals or business cases".

The auditing process will be overseen by a new Transport 21 monitoring group drawn from the Departments of the Taoiseach, Finance, Environment and Transport, as well as the National Development Finance Agency. The practice of also seeking an independent review of the business case put forward by agencies, such as the Railway Procurement Agency and Iarnród Éireann, will continue, he said.

On the subject of value for money, Mr Cullen said the National Roads Authority had brought in 14 schemes last year, of which 11 were under budget. Six of the projects were ahead of schedule and six were on schedule.

The value of the schemes currently under way is more than €4 billion and Mr Cullen insisted the revised target for the completion of the major roads from Dublin to the Border and the regional cities would be completed by the revised timetable of 2010.

© 2007 The Irish Times

[Ronald Binge]

This is code for "The Department of Finance has told us to put the brakes on these projects."

Stage Two of the Delayment Project will be either a private bus operator claiming that they can do the Airport run in ten minutes via the Port Tunnel or someone producing a colourdey map to the Irish Independent and claiming that they can build a surface line from Broadstone to the Airport in six months.

[Colm Donoghue]

So instead of tendering for construction of the metro, they're gonna tender for someone to do a cost benefit analysis that has "Already been done but it's a secret"

I'd like to tender for the burmah road CBA....

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by Irish Times

Mr Cullen responded to criticism from Opposition politicians and economic commentators

Nope, they let it come back negative and blame the opposition

[Thomas J Stamp]

This is rather interesting. Under the NDP's there is a fairly advanced form of review and observation of the current costs and capital costs under the programmes.

But what Minister Cullen is looking at here is totally different, the devil being in the details:

the financial case for some multimillion-euro projects, particularly metro west, had not been established.

Mr Cullen said current methods to evaluate projects costing more than €30 million "will be put on a more structured basis".

I've bolded the interesting bits. In other words, this is test to see if these projects (and there is no list of them, apart from Metro West) will go ahead AT ALL. Now, how do you put forward a financial case in relation to mass-transit public transport?

The scope of the consultants remit; the criteria they will be allowed to employ(and instestingly enough the choice of consultants) will tell all.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Ronald Binge

Stage Two of the Delayment Project will be either a private bus operator claiming that they can do the Airport run in ten minutes via the Port Tunnel

Sure, its easy getting the grannies down the service stairs in Marino, but getting them back up without an elevator ....

[Orlaith]

Sorry if I'm missing something .... but .... on the third page of posts someone mentions that there's no way that the metro will be extended to Donabate to link with the new DART station (we live in hope!). Why is it not possible coz most of the politicians - local and general - all maintain that they are activiely compaigning for it. Is that just a line they're spinning?

I'd appreciate your comments.