[Article] Cullen signs off on Ennis Athenry

[BlahDeBlah]

Originally Posted by Thomas Bibby

You've obviously taken some time to investigate some of the issues associated with commuting south of Galway. Why not offer to do some work in fleshing out what you've just described into a coherent, justified plan which could form part of the submission that Thomas Stamp has already said would happen?

OK challenge accepted. Initial thoughts detailed here. Happy to help - please get in touch Mr Stamp.

The line between Ennis and Galway is direct for more than half the distance (to Arhrahan), but then sweeps away East through Craughwell to Athenry before turning and coming back into Galway. Road and rail map Map here http://www.galwayproperty.com/images/galwaymap1.gif

So the tracks are in good locations at the Northern end from Galway out to Oranmore, and at the southern-end from Ennis to Ardrahan (just North of Gort) - but then do a crazy diversion out to Athenry and back in to Oranmore. Now guess what, over the next 5 years or so a dual carriageway (N18) is being built running Gort to Oranmore. Isn't this a once in a lifetime chance to do good forward planning and build the rail lines alongside the new N18, linking Oranmore to Gort more directly by not diverting inland. Intercity service can then serve Galway > Limerick > Cork, commuter services can serve Murrough, Oranmore, new town of Ardaun, Gort and others (possibly Clarinbrige, Kilcolgan), not hamlets like Ardrahan.

It seems that at the moment, Government plans are to simply resurrect the old lines running out to Athenry and back. West On Track are only lobbying for the old lines to be ressurrected. The McCann report of May 2005 only looked at the resurrection of the WRC, and did not comment on this crazy routing. (I know little about train/stations/tracks but doesn't it also save re-routing loads of lines in/out of Athenry station? as described at http://forum.platform11.org/showpost...5&postcount=45)

Is this a chance for P11 to inject fresh thought to a tired old debate? The C.P.O.'s for the dual carriageway are being saught now. The tender of development plans for the new town of Ardaun are out now. The Ennis -Athenry line is timetabled for completion in 2008. The time to inject this thinking is now. When's Mr Stamps submission due?

Another rail map here http://www.wdc.ie/ourwork_rail.html

N18 route maps here... http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/Roa...s/n18orangort/ (click on Interactive Map - North is left, South is Right)- you can see the rail line intersecting the proposed road at the 2km mark between Athenry and Oranmore (right where the new town of Ardaun is proposed) before heading off inland and re-crossing the road to run alongside it between the 21-22km marks just to the North of Gort). So why not just run alongside the road from the 2km mark to the 21km mark - just 19km of new track?

or something like that !

[Donal Quinn]

hi blahdeblah

i think the lads are being too nice! just a few cynical points to note

according to gmaps the distance saved by a direct route to ardrahan instead of going via athenry is about 8 miles - that represents a saving of just 8 minutes @60mph

the countryside between oranmore and ardrahan (maree, kilcolgan clarinbridge etc) is riddled with one off housing. finding an alignment for a rail line through that is almost impossible. there is also considerable marshland that regularily floods. basically it's not the curragh and building a rail line there would be expensive and every NIMBY on 3/4 acre would drag it through the courts.

the reason that IE, P11 and WOT/WRC focus on exiting tracks/alignments is that the victorians didn't listen to anyone as they cleared out routes for their new fancy fangled railways. that means the hardest bit of the work is done.

the people of galway (of whom i'm one) said goodbye to proper public transport a long time ago by building houses in any field they could find and then putting industrial estates everywhere else. there is no clustering anywhere. this means that any public transport would involve three stages.
1. drive to station (that means huge carparks required)
2. train journey
3. shuttle bus to ind estate (typically miles from railway station)

so it's not just the rail journey time that needs to be competitive -all the other bits need to add up as well to ensure that the door-to-door time of the public transport method beats the door-to-door time of the car alone.

IMO there is no point in building new lines to low density areas (especially for the sake of 8 mins)

that said, maybe there is a point in getting galway coco to define an alignment and preserve it AND begin to build density at ardaun etc. so that when the concept of public transport is proven with the existing lines then the good people of south galway will deserve to have their service upgraded with a direct route.

also you have to remember that much of the use of the ennis-athenry line will be for people getting trains to dublin (as is the case with ennis-limerick). sending them to oranmore will make their journey's longer...

that's my 2 cents. look forward to debating this with you...

actually hang on a sec.

Simply criticising it's resurrection, rather than lobbying for what's truly needed is just sitting on the sidelines with passive observations - rather than driving the agenda of promoting the needs of the country's rail users (sorry Platform 11).

that is not cool

[BlahDeBlah]

Originally Posted by Donalq

the countryside between oranmore and ardrahan (maree, kilcolgan clarinbridge etc) is riddled with one off housing. finding an alignment for a rail line through that is almost impossible.

The N18 has found a route through there. See my post immediately above, with link to the N18 route maps. For exactly the reasons you pointed out, isn't building alongside the new N18 at the time of it's construction the only/last chance to build the direct route?

[Mark Gleeson]

Roughly half of those traveling Ennis Limerick travel onwards towards Dublin, thats a very telling trend

The legisaltive proceedures on a new railway line would mean it would take upwards of 7 years from today with a clean sheet to get outline approval from the DoT, select three routes (as required) do the consultation get the EIS, submit the draft order survive the public inquiry do the detailed design, enact the CPO, and start digging. Of course you will not get that far since you hit a problem at the public inquiry since the original route will be the only choice since that inquiry considers the feasibilty of the works and all reasonable alternatives i.e. the do nothing case

If you have a preexisting route which is open you don't need a works order or any other red tape and you can start tomorrow for a fraction of the cost

In light of Athenry's status as a intercity station and a junction station to the section to Tuam it makes total sense to stick with the original alignment from Ennis since its fairly decent and lacks the level crossings and gradients that you find north of Tuam

[BlahDeBlah]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

You must appreciate the awkward position the WRC is, its a black hole for money and the bus will always win on journey time
...

We have always supported the provision of a service between Limerick and Galway as it makes sense,

I'm confused again.

P11 does not support the Ennis-Athenry link (http://forum.platform11.org/showpost...&postcount=12), the lines are too slow (quoted above) to rival bus transport, but despite that you ARE in favour of a service (quoted above), but not one that would develop lines to rival bus times (http://forum.platform11.org/showpost...&postcount=12).

[Mark Gleeson]

Limerick Galway is not going to work, note the press release makes no reference to that

Limerick commuter and Galway commuter could work if done correctly and in Galway, Oranmore Galway would be faster by rail since it takes a direct route through the main suburbs. You then end up with Limerick Galway as a secondary outcome. We are rightly concerned that IE will make a mess of it. The time has not arrived yet where it makes sense, we are not objecting to it. We will have to wait till IE come back with the actual plan to make a definitive judgement.

The press release if I remember correctly refers to the opening of the full WRC Cullen's announcement also included reference to Tuam and beyond which is clearly a non starter

The full position is available http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/wrc/

[Derek Wheeler]

Hi Blahdeblah

Tell T. Bibby I said hello and be patient with P11. Its done more good on a zero budget than both the DoT, IE and WoT. I can personally guarantee you that we will be ahead of any pack of wolves roaming the WRC.

[Thomas J Stamp]

When's Mr Stamps submission due?

To quote that dismal quote, I'm not there yet, but i'm getting there. Of course the fact that i dont actaully live there sort of hampers things.

Gis a tenner and we'll talk.

Edit to add: We actually know what sort of rolling stock, and more or less the speed restrictions that there will be on this "phase one and only" of the WRC.

The problem is that the government has decided on this, the time for alternative routes is long gone. Its all down to ensuring proper planning and development along the chosen route.

[ccos]

From the west on track Website.

Opinion Poll Findings show Significant Passenger Demand for Western Rail Corridor
Press Release 31st October 2006


The West on Track Community Campaign has welcomed the findings of the MRBI/TG4 Opinion Poll in Galway West which show that almost a quarter of those interviewed would use the soon to be reopened section of the Western Rail Corridor from Ennis to Athenry and that 8% would use it at least 2-3 times per week.

Commenting on the findings, a spokesman for West on Track said: "These figures more than bear out the passenger demand projections of West on Track and are in line with ongoing research being conducted both north and south of Athenry which indicate that demand north of Athenry (the Mayo-Galway route) is 80% of that south of it," he said.

"For example, if 23% of the population of Co. Galway over 18 yrs (approx 150,000) were to make a return journey just once a week, as indicated in the MRBI Opinion Poll, that would generate 828,000 passenger journeys per year (see 1 below).

"It should also be borne in mind that this high level of potential patronage is within just one of the counties to be served by the line (i.e. Galway). We welcome the fact that our passenger demand projections have now been independently verified and expect our projections of demand north of Galway to be accepted as equally accurate.

"The findings of the TG4 poll clearly justify the decision to proceed with the Ennis-Athenry section of the WRC and should encourage the Government to include Phase 2 from Athenry to Claremorris immediately.

"Working from the statistics in the poll it may be seen that potentially greater numbers of people would be using that one section of the WRC annually than currently use the Belfast-Dublin route, with numbers being at least as great as those currently using the Limerick-Dublin, Westport-Dublin and Sligo-Dublin routes," he added.

Example:

23% of respondents say they will use the train at least once a month.

As a % of total pop of Co. Galway over 18 yrs (150,000 approx):

= 34,500 people x 12 months

= 414,000 x 2 (return trips count as 2)

= 828,000 = DEMAND

Note: WEST ON TRACK projected a demand of 750,000

How accurate are these figures cosidering most of Galway county isn't anywhere near the rail line????

[PaulM]

If I was asked how often I would use a rail service to Swords, I would probably say "Maybe twice a week.", after all, I might. It doesn't mean I would though.

If the wrc does get 800,000 per year, I will happily admit I was wrong and that it was a good idea. I hope I will be saying that, but I doubt it.

[Mark Gleeson]

This kind of thing assumes a perfect world, where every journey is direct and where there is a train to suit everyones whim, basically a train every 7 minutes. If someone focused on Oranmore Galway and a little thought on stations you could carry significant numbers 300k but thats not the WRC

As it stands Dublin Galway carries only 1.3 million pa

25% of people lie on surveys, 75% of people know that

[Derek Wheeler]

I was interviewed by TG4 in relation to this poll. What WOT didn't reveal in their story was the fact that 40% of responents said they would never use it.

Its just spin.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

A load of Badgers were made homeless in Sligo and Mayo along the course Burma Road recently to make way for the fence poles. If they lived in East Cork they would protected by the Midleton project. The Badgers of the West are Second Class citizens in the eyes of Irish Rail.

There is Badgercide happening here. I tried to save a family of Badger's home recently from a JCB but alas it was not to be. I tried to explain to the young badgers that them being made homeless was really about regional development.

[dowlingm]

The aim of the game should be... ahem... palerail. Ennis-Athenry will partially cannibalise the existing Ennis-Limerick passenger numbers as it offers an alternate routing to Dublin (although for Ennis-Sixmilebridge-Limerick commuters that will be a good thing as it will make room for them) so people will have a better choice of journey times and less time hanging around Heuston.

It offers a Gort-Dublin/Athlone/(Mullingar one hopes) service that didn't previously exist - I doubt many people drove to Athenry to pick up the train but if they did it relieves pressure on parking there. It also adds some new GAA special options if Clare get out of Munster or Galway out of Connaught.

[TomB]

Ennis-Dublin will always be more sensible via Limerick than via Athenry. Too much single track running on the Athenry route. Current journey times on the existing network justify this assumption.

I don't think getting people from Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell to Dublin should be a significant consideration in building a rail link between Limerick (or Cork) and Galway.

What should be a consideration is beating the car journey time by at least 30%. Sadly I don't think that's going to happen.

[Jister]

I took a look at Ardrahan as I passed through it yesterday, apart from one development of about 25 houses the celtic tiger appears to have passed it by. The railway line is a good bit from the village so if people are going to get the train they might as well drive the couple of miles to Gort.

[comcor]

It's quite simple to reserve the land for a station, but not build it unless development requires it.

[Jister]

Originally Posted by comcor

It's quite simple to reserve the land for a station, but not build it unless development requires it.

Ardrahan is ideal is a "new" town. There is nothing there at the moment so they can design a nice 5000 person town around a centre with station, shops and related facilities. Its not like other places where existing low density development makes sustainable development tricky.

[ccos]

From the "West on Track" website

County Clare, Sunday November 12th 2006 - Mr. Tony Killeen, Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has proposed that a rail stop be provided in Crusheen village on the Ennis to Athenry section of the Western Rail Corridor project. Minister Killeen presented the proposal to Iarnród Éireann this week after receiving strong representations from community groups and constituents in Crusheen and elsewhere in the North Clare area.

Earlier this year, the Government approved funding for the reopening of the Ennis to Athenry section of the Western Rail Corridor, as well as the Athenry-Tuam section. Track renewal works on the Ennis to Athenry section are due to begin early next year. Once completed in 2008, an expected seven trains per day will travel from Ennis to Athenry with stops at Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell.

Commenting on the need to provide a rail stop in Crusheen, Minister Killeen stated, "Two stops are being provided for between Gort and Athenry and none on the very long stretch of railway between Ennis to Gort. Crusheen is an ideal location for people coming from Ruan, Corofin, Tubber, Boston and elsewhere in north Clare as well as Tulla and other areas of East Clare."

The Minister for Labour Affairs and Clare T.D. added, "The costs associated with establishing and maintaining the proposed railway stop would not be excessive. The provision of a ticket vending machine, for example, would lessen the need for the stop to be manned on a full-time basis."

In response to Minister Killeen's proposal, Chairman of Iarnród Éireann J.J. Lynch this week confirmed he would be requesting the managers responsible for the Western Rail Corridor to assess the costs and benefits of establishing a rail stop in Crusheen.

"I welcome Mr Lynch's commitment to assessing the viability of establishing a rail stop in Crusheen. Such a development would have enormous economic and social benefits for Crusheen and its surrounding hinterland. It would contribute to reducing the number of cars on our roads and it would provide commuters in these areas with a direct rail link to Galway City, Athenry, Ennis and Limerick City", Minister Killeen concluded.

They can't be serious? can they?????

[Oisin88]

Crusheen is an ideal location for people coming from Ruan, Corofin, Tubber, Boston and elsewhere in north Clare as well as Tulla and other areas of East Clare."

It servers Boston!
Now the PDs can really be closer to Boston than Berlin