[article] Rail user group concerned about DART overcrowding

[Mark Gleeson]

Rail user group concerned about DART overcrowding
Train travellers group responds to Irish Rail plans to run shorter off-peak trains

Christopher McKinley


Rail Users Ireland (RUI), a representative body for train travellers, has said they are concerned that running shorter DART trains during off-peak hours may lead to overcrowding.

“On paper we’ve have no formal objection what they are doing,” RUI spokesman, Mark Gleeson, said while adding that it’s appropriate for the train length to suit the number of passengers it carries.

However, he argued that there’s a very high probability people will have to stand during off-peak hours.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...ding-1.1521459

[ACustomer]

What worries me is that they will take a lazy approach and will not monitor overcrowding and make the necessary adjustments. Easier to leave a 2-car running on the same link most of the day.

It would seem that the only way to adjust trains is to concentrate on doing it at Bray or maybe to park up a couple of 2-car sets at Malahide off-peak. Anything else is likely to lead to en-route delays.

[Thomas J Stamp]

on drivetime last night they said they wouldnt, but thats not going to happen. it'll trundle up and down the rails all day.

barry couldnt really refute the basic point that this a disaster for the PR and Marketing dept of I.E. (headed by a Mr B. Kenny) in that they really should be aiming to fill the trains they have rather than admit defeat and cut services.

Despite all of the half hearted efforts they have employed they are in the end cutting capacity no matter how you spin it, nor what ground you are doing your spinning upon.

once you go down this road there isnt any going back either.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

on drivetime last night they said they wouldnt, but thats not going to happen. it'll trundle up and down the rails all day.

barry couldnt really refute the basic point that this a disaster for the PR and Marketing dept of I.E. (headed by a Mr B. Kenny) in that they really should be aiming to fill the trains they have rather than admit defeat and cut services.

Despite all of the half hearted efforts they have employed they are in the end cutting capacity no matter how you spin it, nor what ground you are doing your spinning upon.

once you go down this road there isnt any going back either.

To be fair, the two other main transport providers in Dublin (Dublin Bus and LUAS) have cut back capacity as well. Both cut back frequency.

The reality is that the demand has fallen - IE probably should have done this sooner, but I imagine the challenge was getting a set of links together that would deliver this.

From what I gather the sets are being swapped at both Connolly and Bray, rather than being split, so if the demand is higher, it ought to be reasonably possible to retain the longer sets in service if required.

[Inniskeen]

This is the right move for a lot of reasons notably economy, security and reduction in vandalism. Near empty eight car trains rattling around on late evening services has been a scandal for years affording no benefit to anybody other than those engaging in anti-social behaviour and vandalism.

A two-car DART is probably adequate for most off-peak services although there will inevitably be some overcrowding caused by relatively minor variations in traffic. Having said that, it is an urban transport system and a proportion of standing passengers in and approaching the city centre shouldn't be that big a deal.

While commercial reality and common sense support the reduction in set sizes at this time, it is disturbing that the DART service is no longer attacting the patronage to justify 4-car sets at off-peak periods. Four car sets were introduced off peak in the late 1980s due to demand.

If I were the DART operator I would also be trying to identify why the service has lost it sheen. Is it price, reliability, journey time, accessibility, security, the condition of stations, improved road infrastructure, better bus services ?

Per AECOM and the CSO, DART patronage (in 2011) appears to have been around 16 million journeys per annum, similar to usage way back in in 1987 (prior to fleet expansion and the Malahide and Greystones extensions). In 2011 Drogheda, Maynooth and Kildare suburban services accounted for a further 12 million journeys split roughly 6, 4 and 2 million respectively.

[James Howard]

I was just saying that last night - it is highly odd that the main urban rail service in a city the size of Dublin can only sustain 2-car service every 15 minutes off-peak. Personally, I think it is down to lack of frequency. The frequency of the bus service on nearby corridors is far higher than that of the DART. It also doesn't help that the city centre DART stations are not exactly in convenient locations.

But basic demand would also have made a huge difference. In the 80's there was no Sandyford, Dundrum, Liffey Valley, etc., taking traffic out of the city centre. In addition, a huge proportion of the younger people who would be using public transport to go out at night are now living in the city centre. Even if they were going out, the days of the pubs closing at roughly the same time as the last bus/DART are long past so people wouldn't be bothered with taking the DART in if they can't get it home. This is a common feature of Irish public-sector transport with the partial exception of Bus Éireann - everyone seems to want to get to bed early.

Finally, there used to be feeder buses for the DART which are long gone.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

This is the right move for a lot of reasons notably economy, security and reduction in vandalism. Near empty eight car trains rattling around on late evening services has been a scandal for years affording no benefit to anybody other than those engaging in anti-social behaviour and vandalism.

A two-car DART is probably adequate for most off-peak services although there will inevitably be some overcrowding caused by relatively minor variations in traffic. Having said that, it is an urban transport system and a proportion of standing passengers in and approaching the city centre shouldn't be that big a deal.

While commercial reality and common sense support the reduction in set sizes at this time, it is disturbing that the DART service is no longer attacting the patronage to justify 4-car sets at off-peak periods. Four car sets were introduced off peak in the late 1980s due to demand.

If I were the DART operator I would also be trying to identify why the service has lost it sheen. Is it price, reliability, journey time, accessibility, security, the condition of stations, improved road infrastructure, better bus services ?

Per AECOM and the CSO, DART patronage (in 2011) appears to have been around 16 million journeys per annum, similar to usage way back in in 1987 (prior to fleet expansion and the Malahide and Greystones extensions). In 2011 Drogheda, Maynooth and Kildare suburban services accounted for a further 12 million journeys split roughly 6, 4 and 2 million respectively.

this is the point, and it is not just applicable to the DART - although it is understandable that it is getting most of the attention. It is accepted that having an 8 car whizzing about in the evening is silly, surely a 4-car is better than a 2 car though. After all, where can you go after a 2-car? No car.

The same applies to the time period between 10am and 5pm - surely a 4-car is better in this period than a 2-car.

I still remember a russian lad i knew in my student days gazing at the DART timetable and being astounded at what we thought was a great frequency of service but he was saying was unacceptable. That was the mid 90's, and the gaps are wider now.

It goes back to basics. An awfull lot of people stand in exposed places for long periods of time (and time is as such a mental concept) for a DART to find the train isnt as big as it was. Its off putting. Like I said to Barry Kenny, it only takes that one straw to break the camels back and you'll have regular users just giving up on it.

No matter the economic situation, and we know enough about its realities at this stage, the simple matter is that it is possible to attract enough passengers to use at the very least 4-car DARTS off peak in enough numbers to make it a viable service.

You have two options. Attract more passengers and if you fail to do that, you cut the service. Irish Rail have failed to attract more passengers so they have cut the service. You can dress it up whatever way you like, but thats the bottom line.

[Mark Gleeson]

Complaints already in

1. Significant increase in crowding in peak conditions
2. Use of 2 coach trains on the very edge of the peak
3. Forcing passengers to change between long and short trains at Connolly and Bray

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

this is the point, and it is not just applicable to the DART - although it is understandable that it is getting most of the attention. It is accepted that having an 8 car whizzing about in the evening is silly, surely a 4-car is better than a 2 car though. After all, where can you go after a 2-car? No car.

The same applies to the time period between 10am and 5pm - surely a 4-car is better in this period than a 2-car.

I still remember a russian lad i knew in my student days gazing at the DART timetable and being astounded at what we thought was a great frequency of service but he was saying was unacceptable. That was the mid 90's, and the gaps are wider now.

It goes back to basics. An awfull lot of people stand in exposed places for long periods of time (and time is as such a mental concept) for a DART to find the train isnt as big as it was. Its off putting. Like I said to Barry Kenny, it only takes that one straw to break the camels back and you'll have regular users just giving up on it.

No matter the economic situation, and we know enough about its realities at this stage, the simple matter is that it is possible to attract enough passengers to use at the very least 4-car DARTS off peak in enough numbers to make it a viable service.

You have two options. Attract more passengers and if you fail to do that, you cut the service. Irish Rail have failed to attract more passengers so they have cut the service. You can dress it up whatever way you like, but thats the bottom line.

It would be interesting to know whether this off-peak configuration actually would have also worked during the boom years.

As with most companies, it probably never entered into the company's thinking at the time.

I suspect that certainly in the evenings, a 2-car DART would have been sufficient even then. The loads do drop off. Whether they would have worked during the day, difficult to tell.

I would certainly agree that they need to be very careful in terms of monitoring the loads - if people are being left behind that frankly is unacceptable.