Dublin Bus says new LUAS line could hamper services

[comcor]

Dublin Bus says new LUAS line could hamper services
25/04/2006 - 12:11:05



Dublin Bus has claimed its services will be adversely affected if the expected route of the new LUAS line in Dublin is approved.

A number of proposed routes have been put forward for the planned link-up between the two existing tram lines in the city.

The one expected to get final approval would see new tracks being built from St Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street via Dawson St and College St.

Dublin Bus claims this would have a permanent effect on the viability of a number of bus services that currently use this area.

It said up to 35 bus stops would have to be removed and located elsewhere, while several routes would also have to be changed.

[PaulM]

Originally Posted by Dublin bus

It said up to 35 bus stops would have to be removed and located elsewhere, while several routes would also have to be changed.

Perhaps this will at last be enought to change it so they don't all go up O'Connell St. ....

[markpb]

When they complained about this last, it wasn't O'Connell st. they were worried about but Nassau street which carries 1/3 (which seems too low to me) of the passengers each day. It's very hard to avoid without a complete re-think which seems unlikely.

On the upside, DCC infomed me this week that they're building a new orbital QBC from Ballymun to the Howth road along Santry Ave, Coolock Lane and Oscar Traynor road. Hopefully the 17A will have its service level upgraded when this happens. The beginning of a decent orbital service?

[Mark Gleeson]

The obvious bus route is O'Connell Bridge Townsend Street, Westland Row, Merrion Square which is a lot quieter and has rail intergration

The two bus stops on the bottom of Grafton Street are going to disappear

[James Shields]

One would hope that this might prompt the sort of review of routes that's really required. But I doubt it will.

Before BAC criticise the rerouting required by Luas works, but how many city centre streets do they tie up parking out of service busses?

I don't know if this comes from BAC or not, but this morning's Herald AM declared that over 30 bus stops would be moved "out of the city centre". I don't dispute that some intelligent rerouting will be required, but why should there be a need to move routes out of the city centre?

Personally I think the idea of terminating busses in the city centre is an outragous idea, and if all southside busses were twinned with a northside route and ran through the centre it would free up a lot of street space for busses to run more smoothly. But that's an argument for another day.

I can envision a scenario where a temporary rerouting becomes permanent when it works better than the original, like Stephen's Green.

[markpb]

Originally Posted by lostcarpark

Before BAC criticise the rerouting required by Luas works, but how many city centre streets do they tie up parking out of service busses?

Since DoT won't pay for a city centre bus depot, there's not much DB can do about this. The station at Jervis st might go some small way to alleviating that.

Originally Posted by lostcarpark

Personally I think the idea of terminating busses in the city centre is an outragous idea, and if all southside busses were twinned with a northside route and ran through the centre it would free up a lot of street space for busses to run more smoothly. But that's an argument for another day.

Wouldn't that mean that the buses would become a lot more unpredictable as traffic one side of the city delays an incoming bus? If we had proper bus lanes and bus priority junctions, it wouldn't be an issue.

[philip]

Alright, I'm no fan of CIE but the whole notion of terminating in town is due in no small part to a total lack of real bus priority measures. The buses running to town and back already have incredible difficulty keeping to timetable because of congestion and a lack of priority measures, so it would get even more difficult if they extended the routes without priority measures being implemented, and it's not their respnsibility to do that-FCC, DCC, SDCC and DLRCC all have to take the blame too. Some are better than others (FCC is pretty good of late) but DCC have done diddly squat to improve the 39 'QBC' around Manor St despite BAC repeatedly asking for a contra flow buslane or closing the street to through traffic.

Edit: beat me to it markpb!

[James Shields]

Yes, it would have to have proper bus lanes with prioritisateion. I think we need to channel many routes onto a small number of high-quality bus lanes through the city centre. These would always prioritise busses, and would never get squashed back in with the traffic where the road gets narrow (if the street is too narrow for busses and cars, make it bus only), with bus prioritisation at junctions. Within these central areas, all bus stops would have TVMs and busses would be prepaid only, keeping busses moving freely through the city centre. There would be quality interchanges at the intersection points of the bus lanes.

This would, of course, require a complete redesign of the route map, which we're unlikely to get any time soon.

I reckon we'll get a quick fudge - which will surprisingly work better than the original.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Aren't BAC moving all of the College Green Terminii out to Grand Canal Dock? I would expect that once the Port Tunnell is up and running most of the Buses which Terminate in or around the Central Triangle will be moved down there and will probably go up and down the quays.

In relation to the bus park/station in Middle Abbey Street this is actually what it was before the LUAS works started. It replaced the older one in the middle of O'Connell street which finally vanished in 1987/1988 i fink, if not sooner.

If you think about it BAC has now lost three major terminii points. The first was when Temple Bar was pubbified back in the early 80's. I can still remember bonbariers flying past the Alchemist's Head in Essex Street!. The second one was Middle Abbey Street, and now College Street is going. If BAC really get their act together and the new bridge (Macken Bridge?) get's built they should be eying up the Sherriff Street Station as another Terminus.

As for a QBC for the 17A? I have a good mate who wates patiently wlist buses go up to the Kilbarrack Terminus and never come down. This is interesting as it's a Cul De Sac. Also, that turning point is actually at Howth Junction, but for some reason you're turfed out of the bus at the Junction with Oscar Traynor Road while the bus, empty, goes up to the station, turns round and back down to the junction with Oscar Traynor. Why dont they put the damnned last stop at the station?

Maybe because then someone will find out that A) they cant hide and read the paper up there anymore and B) that the 17A is actually a potentialy fine feeder bus (and a proper one at that)

[markpb]

Originally Posted by thomasjstamp

for some reason you're turfed out of the bus at the Junction with Oscar Traynor Road while the bus, empty, goes up to the station, turns round and back down to the junction with Oscar Traynor. Why dont they put the damnned last stop at the station?

Maybe because then someone will find out that A) they cant hide and read the paper up there anymore and B) that the 17A is actually a potentialy fine feeder bus (and a proper one at that)

I know, its typical of DB/IE to have an orbital bus route terminating in the same area as a train line but not have them meet at all :/ I spoke to the Harristown depot manager about fixing that and was assured it would be "kept in mind during any future timetable changes".

Whether they'll bother and whether they consider its worth paying the drivers compensation for a work change is up for debate.

[Thomas J Stamp]

There is no need for a timetable change. The bus physicaly goes there using the traditional time/space continuim that we are all familiar with. The proof of it is when you time them hanging around before they come back to the boarding stop. It's only being going on since they first put the stop there in the 60/70's.

[CSL]

But rerouting buses away from Dawson St and Suffolk St is just silly ! Like it or not the buses will carry more than the trams

[Kevin K Kelehan]

Agreed

Since DoT won't pay for a city centre bus depot, there's not much DB can do about this. The station at Jervis st might go some small way to alleviating that.

I personally feel that the Abbey St/ Gt Strand St will be a complete washout on the basis of access given the pinch point at Liffey St on one side and the narrowness of Gt Strand St on the other; combine this with the fact that the approach To Great Strand St from Jervis St regularly gridlocks as do all exits via Capel St and this site starts to become very unattractive as a bus terminal. I am starting to come around to the idea of a docklands bus station replacing the temporary station at Spencer Dock with the spare Luas Red line capacity soaked up post interconnector.

The Abbey St site should be re-tendered as a straight disposal

[philip]

Agree with you Kevin about Abbey St. It's going to be a waste of time. It was little more than a useful place to park buses in the past and that's all it'll be in the future if you ask me. It's just too awkward to get in and out of and anyway, we should be getting away from city centre termination completely.

I still like Alek Smart's Drumcondra idea the best. Could have been very useful with the short term involving 46A's etc. being extended there to connect with Maynooth trains (they'd be empty picking up-perfect!) and then post T21 you go the other way and buses runing north-south along the N1 terminate there and transfer their passengers to metro and DART for onward travel to Intel, Maynooth Uni, City Centre destinations and so on. That's how it works at Muenchener Freiheit U-Bahn station in Munich for all buses coming north-south along Leopoldstrasse (no train service of any kind along that route so buses fill the gap), and it's fantastic. It actually encourages you to use the bloody bus!

Looking north here we can see the Munich equivalent of the N1 (leopoldstrasse which ultimately becomes the A9 motorway and runs on to Berlin) but under which there runs no u-bahn and along which runs no trams, so the buses come in this far, dropping passengers onto the U-Bahn and then all turn back north, totally avoiding the nasty traffic. Simple and ingenoius, and totally reproducable at Drumcondra....

[Thomas J Stamp]

Regarding the idea of the 46A's going to Drumcondra remember that some already go to the airport. I would wonder exactly how the turnaround would be managed in Drumcondra. Wouldnt it be better if the 46A was to continue heading North? For example, why not merge it with another route coming down the Swords road, the 41, and have a high quality cross town bus from Swords to Dun Laoire serving the airport on the way?

In realtion to the docklands area bus staion it would be ideal to take what I would have traditionaly thought were the Ringsend routes - all the Tallaght Buses, all of the 15's together with all of the 14's (which really ought to be merged with the 13's on the northside) all of the 78's and 51's to Ballyfermot and Clondalkin, all of the 25's the 26 and 66/67's. The idea is that it is only a terminal stop, the pickup points in and around the central area would remain more or less as they are.

As for the parking lot on Abbey Street, I agree that is all it's good for. When it was used before the traffic flows in the area were diferent, you could drive a bus right to it down abbey street, you cant do that now, less there is a derogation, whcih is easily done. You could perhaps have the buses share the luas track, shouldnt be too much of a problem as long as there are no bus stops adn the bueses are only going as far as Caple Street anyway.

You could have the buses that terminate on Lower Abbey street terminate there. there isnt any point in having them terminate in the docklands as its moving the last stop further away form the city centre.

You do that and merge a few of the above, along with the 40's and get them crossing the river and it could potentially free up a lot of space.

[philip]

Originally Posted by thomasjstamp

Regarding the idea of the 46A's going to Drumcondra remember that some already go to the airport. I would wonder exactly how the turnaround would be managed in Drumcondra.

Click here, northbound along Drumcondra Rd, left onto Whitworth Rd, right onto St Patrick's Rd, right onto St Anne's Rd then right again back onto Drumcondra Rd southbound. And there's pace beside the station to drive piles to retain the embankment before removing that mound of earth, providing space for something like Muenchener Freiheit (pictured above) if needs be but it'd work fine wihout that.

Originally Posted by thomasjstamp

Wouldnt it be better if the 46A was to continue heading North? For example, why not merge it with another route coming down the Swords road, the 41, and have a high quality cross town bus from Swords to Dun Laoire serving the airport on the way?

This isn't a bad idea either. Maybe run all 46As to the airport and all other south-north buses that terminate in Parnell Sq run on just as far as Drumcondra. I wouldn't advocate running all buses to the airport as they'd be better used serving a wider catchment area than all heading north (mostly empty) on the N1. Then in the future when the metro arrives you go the other way and run buses from the likes of Coolock/Beaumont/Darndale north-south to Drumcondra using the same loop to turn only now dropping passengers who are city bound onto metro/DART. It really works elsewhere and it really can work here. The N1 is nice and wide and can accomodate QBC measures a lot better than the city centre. You then replicate the same across the city and as time goes by fewer and fewer buses need to penetrate the city centre and can be sweated in the 'burbs just feeding into the rail network, both in the radial manner I outlined for Darndale etc. -> Drumcondra and in an orbital manner into all the other radial rail lines.

[James Shields]

Wouldnt it be better if the 46A was to continue heading North? For example, why not merge it with another route coming down the Swords road, the 41, and have a high quality cross town bus from Swords to Dun Laoire serving the airport on the way?

I'm totally for this, but the current bus lane on the N1 has a few "pinch points" where it all goes to hell.

There's one particular point close to Drumcondra where a pub juts out into the road, reducing it to a single lane. In my view the current solution of diverting the busses back into the regular traffic just isn't acceptable. There are two choices: divert the cars onto another route, or CPO and knock down the pub. Neither of these are likely to be popular choices, and there are lots of similar examples around the city.

To make a joined-up bus route like this work, you need a high-quality, prioritised bus lane going right through the city centre, where you can guarantee there will be no delays along the bus route. You cannot have the bus sitting on O'Connell Street at a complete standstill for 15 minutes.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Yeah, problem with the route around Dumcondra is that you'll be sending a lot of buses up and down that residential area where there havent been buses before (so it's not like Santry's 16 Terminus) and i think there's no right turn from St Annes Road onto Drumcondra road.

I dont think the Buses would be that empty, I would see the merged 46A/41 going all the way to Swords and i dont even think it would take that many (if any) extra buses to do it, ie, it could be done tomorrow (once the drivers are brought up to speed on the route).

Just taking the thing a step further there is no reason why the 28's and the 42's cant be merged and the 20B used to go cross town many years ago. (In fact there was once a 51 from Griffith Avenue to Tallaght!) That 20 could easily be merged with a 15 for example, the trip from Beaumont is quick enough with priority measures, it could cross at Butt Bridge, stop on D'Olier Street, Nassau Street and off towards Templeogue. At the moment you would have to get off in Talbot Street and walk.

Now that's what I call integration.

[philip]

Originally Posted by thomasjstamp

Yeah, problem with the route around Dumcondra is that you'll be sending a lot of buses up and down that residential area where there havent been buses before (so it's not like Santry's 16 Terminus) and i think there's no right turn from St Annes Road onto Drumcondra road.

Screw the residents. I'm sorry, I live in a so called residential area which is well outside the city boundary and I put up with hundreds of vehicles a day passing by my house to reach a shopping centre. Those people live in the city of Dublin and cannot be protected from such awful things as buses! If you want a quiet life then don't live in a city centre (and Drumcondra would be considered city centre everwhere else!). As for theno right turn, change it. The city council can change these things. As LCP says, we have to make tough decisions and start giving real priority to buses, not a 100 yds of buslane here followed by a 15min standstill shared with cars. Cars have to be inconvenienced, not buses.

[Thomas J Stamp]

The problem with screw the residents is that there's no need to screw anyone if an alternative solution that works can be found.

Regarding the pub I'm wondering which one is it. I would guess the Cat and Cage?