Cork-Dub Vs london-Paris

[IHIR]

See the record set today? 135 mins from London to Paris - now wouldnt that be nice from Cork to Dublin

[Mark Gleeson]

Was 2 hours 3 minutes 39 seconds today

Dublin Cork record is 2 hours 7 minutes

[packetswitch]

When was that, Mark? Steam?

I'm a big fan of Eurostar - did it on a number of occasions last year London to Paris and London to Brussels (some for work, some for leisure). Very cheap for an under 26 too (which I still am, just about).

(As an aside, those who like to travel without flying might like to note that because St. Pancras is just a short walk from Euston (terminus for Holyhead to London services), doing Dublin to Paris or Dublin to Brussels (or points beyond it) has become a little easier (if you have a few hours to spare, of course).

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by packetswitch

When was that, Mark? Steam?

1987 diesel[/quote]

I intend to do a day trip Dublin - London - Paris - London - Dublin in 2008 to try it out, obviously flying to London

Eurostar has a 70% and growing market share, the total cost of the infrastructure is in the tens of billions

[richards]

In fairness, the London - Paris has a huge catchment area so can justify the capital cost associated with building same, even then its operating at an overall loss, The total cost of the Channel Tunnel will make it uneconomic for many years to come.

Dublin Cork is approx 150 years old and with todays numbers using it,it is questionable it would be built today in its entirety.

However with the end of oil and climate change, the dynamics of building such railways might again come in to focus!

[MrX]

Just to give you an idea of the scale:

London Metropolitan area : 12,629,020
Paris Metropolitan area : 11,695,134
Brussels Metropolitan area: 2,129,024

Republic of Ireland (all of it) : 4,239,848

Dublin's the 73rd largest European metropolitan area with a population of 1,036,724

Cork doesn't even rate in the top 200.

So comparing Eurostar and the Cork-Dublin-Express is a bit pointless.

If you want to compare it with something, perhaps a line between some of the middle sized German cities would be a good comparison.

Or, take a look at the Scandinavian countries
E.g. compare it to Copenhagen -Aarhus (Denmark's capital to second city)

Trying to compare an Irish service to Paris-London is just totally ridiculous.

[91101_GNER]

You can compare it to our London-Birmingham service in terms of the strategic importance of linking the captial city to the nations "2nd" city. I'm guessing IE have realised this importance so thats why this route, which seems to be the premier route in Ireland has been given brand new, superior Loco hauled coaching stock, which in theory provides the most comfortable ride quality (I did say "In theory") and provides better onboard services for both leisure and business customers than stock on other routes (the 22ks)

[MrX]

In terms of strategic importance, yes you could, but again the scale is quite different.

It's very comparable to similar services in Scandinavia though, most of which operate at up to 200km/h. Once the CDE gets its new power cars, and the track upgrades are complete, it should be running pretty fast too.

In Irish terms the Cork-Dublin service is by far the busiest in the country though and does justify investment. It's just that the population densities don't really justify TGV-type infrastructure. However, I seriously think the Government should start looking at reserving land banks for a future TGV line between those two cities. In 20 years time, Cork could be substantially bigger as could Dublin and the fuel economy may be very different too. So, a high speed link may be very strategically important.

If the route were worked out and the land bank reserved etc, it would make rolling out any future technology rather more simple.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by 91101_GNER

You can compare it to our London-Birmingham service in terms of the strategic importance of linking the capital city to the nations "2nd" city. I'm guessing IE have realised this importance so that's why this route, which seems to be the premier route in Ireland has been given brand new, superior Loco hauled coaching stock, which in theory provides the most comfortable ride quality (I did say "In theory") and provides better on board services for both leisure and business customers than stock on other routes (the 22ks)

This is a better comparison and still it makes IE look bad. The coaching stock is sort of superior but the loco isn't. As for business classes, if I cant type a report on the laptop on the CDE (which I couldn't the last time I tried) then its not providing any services for me.

As a matter of interest, last Sunday week the A/c on the 1900 back to Cork was set to Antarctica. Closing the curtains and sitting on the aisle seat didn't help and I was frozen all the way to Cork. Also, the trolley only made it to our carriage when we went past Limerick Junction. Poor.

We've said it before here, I'll say it again. IE do not have a proper planning and development ethos in place. Why get new coaches, attach them to old locos and then admit you really want power units both ends of them to be bought at a later date? The proper way was to buy the whole kit from CAF and then upgrade the track, not half the kit, upgrade, then the other half. Ah sure, I'm talking to the wall again.

[CSL]

part of our problem is that the train stops along the way. IE should have one up and one down non-stop at least to show how it could be done.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Isnt the demand for it. Even on the day of the AI semi final with Kerry playing, when IE said to me that the 19.00 was sold out the fact was that the fist two unreserved carraiges were nearly empty, with only 14 in mine.

As it is, it has to stop in places where you can connect to Limerick/Galway Mayo/Kerry/Waterford, so the best is two stops alternating as it does.

The real savings in time will be line renewal and loco replacement and even then it wont result in a service more than the current hourly (which is isnt of course) one.

[MrX]

I don't know that there isn't the demand for it

If you'd non-stop Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Cork running at key times, you would get a large business usage. It needs to be advertised, sold and pushed as a fast option. I think not putting laptop sockets into ALL coaches was a huge mistake. It was just silly not to do it.

If the current set up were to be used to its full potential, i.e. actually getting 90-100mph out of the 201s for a good chunk of the trip you'd shave a good 30 mins or more off it.

Suddenly, IE would be a LOT more attractive than taking an aircraft or getting into your car.

Cork-Dublin doesn't really need TGV speeds. 200km/h with fewer stops could make it a very popular, and even more profitable route.

As I see it, talking to people I know etc, there is a general perception that the train = poor quality of service and is an option for people who can't afford to fly / drive.

Sadly, IE's long tradition of dire service, filthy Mark-3 trains, dilapidated Mark 2 trains and even older trains that belong in a transport museum has damaged the company's image, and the image of the railway as a viable means of business travel.

It's going to take a LOT of work to attract business and other regular users back to the service.
They really need to be pushing the fact that the service on the new Cork-Dublin Express trains is at a whole new level.

If I had been doing it, along with a new livery, I would have rolled out a new name and abandoned 'InterCity' completely. As the new fleet came in, the old intercity trains would have been replaced with a new fleet of trains with an entirely new name and image. The result would have been people seeing that the service is different, new and improved.

IE need to shake off their old tattered image a.s.a.p.

The "Enterprise" was an example of how this kind of branding can work. However, sadly with the Enterprise, the service often doesn't remotely live up to the marketing.

[Thomas J Stamp]

You're actually agreeing with what I am saying. There is no need for anything more than 200kph with two/three stops. A no-stops express service from one destination to the other would only be really marketable at certain times of the day, eg to get you to appointments at the start of the day, maybe lunchtime, and the ability to zip you back again. In real terms, early morning, mid morning and evening. The last two aren't that hard to do, you have to ensure the last one leaves somewhere between 1630-1650 and the mid morning around 10.30. There are plenty of ways to get those trains to overtake other ones. The difficulty is the early morning one from Cork. At the moment it gets in at the proper time and so what you're talking about is it leaving a little later from Cork. At that time of the day 5.15 vs 5.45 isn't that much of an incentive.

The vast majority of the 30 Min's to be shaved off will come from track renewal and removal of speed restrictions.