Carriage skips GCD

PaulM · 09-03-2006, 09:21

I was on the 18.20 from Blackrock yesterday, as we pulled into Grand Canal Dock, the DART didn't slow down properly. By the time we came to a complete stop, my carriage, the front one, and I would think the second one, had passed the platform. The train didn't reverse back and no announcement of why was made.

Once again top notch customer service from our excellent rail operator.

philip · 09-03-2006, 09:27

Did the doors in your car open Paul? (You should make sure to report this, the driver might be dodgy)

Mark · 09-03-2006, 09:32

Did people get out of your carriage?

Mark Gleeson · 09-03-2006, 10:17

I've got some further insight from Paul

It was the 17:59 Bray Malahide
It was a Japanese built train
The speed limit at this point is 25mph

The driver of an 8 coach train can't reverse at this point, a 6 coach can. Reversing a long train would change the signal at Lansdowne Rd back to red in the face of an oncoming train

I've seen this before but only under poor conditions, a little bit of rain. In two incidents I can recall the driver did leave the braking way too late. No PA on those occasions either and that was a 4 coach train

The anti lock brakes are plain strange its great to 10mph beyond there it takes an an age to slow

Yes the train has a black box. IE will deny this happened

PaulM · 09-03-2006, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip

Did the doors in your car open Paul? (You should make sure to report this, the driver might be dodgy)

No but I suspect I could have opened them, they made that beeping sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Did people get out of your carriage?

No but I reckon I could have.

It was odd because it didn't seem to be the drivers fault (I have had a driver skip a station once, my station) I could hear the breaks squeeking, the train just didn't stop on time. As we approached the station, it seemed normal, normal slowing, no loud bangs, it just took longer than normal to come to a complete stop.

Mark · 09-03-2006, 10:42

Was there an 'L' sticker on the front window of the train?

philip · 09-03-2006, 12:52

This is potentially very dangerous (obviously). Imagine some blind guy was alone in the car when that happened or a kid runs to the door and is too short to see out the window before pressing the button and stepping out into the abyss. Even a sighted adult could come a cropper at night with this carry on.

Can we contact the IRSC or whoever about this? It's an accident waiting to happen is this.

philip · 09-03-2006, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The driver of an 8 coach train can't reverse at this point, a 6 coach can. Reversing a long train would change the signal at Lansdowne Rd back to red in the face of an oncoming train

Would that not be safer than hitting the door unlock button with 2 cars beyond the platform and not even making a PA to move down the train?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

I've seen this before but only under poor conditions, a little bit of rain. In two incidents I can recall the driver did leave the braking way too late. No PA on those occasions either and that was a 4 coach train

And these guys were complaining about a new safety regime-no wonder!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Yes the train has a black box. IE will deny this happened

Can the black box record exactly where the train stopped? Can IE delete what's on it? Do the IRSC have access to the black box like the CAA would with an aircraft incident?

Mark Gleeson · 09-03-2006, 13:26

You can't set back generally without permission of the signaller, normal procedure is the call the signaller request permission, change ends move back then change again that proceedure is followed. You can't go back if there is a train behind (there is one timetabled 5 minutes behind which can be only 300m at time)

Due to the track layout at GCD setting back is tricky as the overlap beyond the signal before GCD is 20m up the platform so setting back would set the signal at Lansdowne Rd to red thus possibly causing a SPAD incident thus requiring the signaller to take control.

The black box records distance, acceleration, braking, postion of the controller handle, antilock brake state and the ATP state it also records the door interlock state so it would be possible to prove an overshoot and that the doors opened. ITs based on establishing a datum point eg Lansdowne Rd stop. The box has a limited storage capacity and unless we have the coach number we are stuffed.

Yes this is a breech of safety
The Railway Safety Commission

4th Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
Phone: +353 (0) 1 2068110
Fax: +353 (0) 1 2068115/116

And yes uinlike IE they will write back

If I was on board I would have got out (I know what I am doing) and took the photo and opted for the walk to Pearse. Evidence is key coach number train composition, opinion on approach speed

PaulM · 09-03-2006, 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

If I was on board I would have got out (I know what I am doing) and took the photo and opted for the walk to Pearse. Evidence is key coach number train composition, opinion on approach speed

It ocurred to me just after that I should have done this, I was kind of shocked it didn't move back.

Whatever about signalling issues, Philip make a good point, someone could have been injured.

philip · 09-03-2006, 14:14

Screw the car number-the average joe doesn't even know cars have numbers. Write to the IRSC Paul and explain what happened. Let them ask the awkward questions of IE. This is bang out of order. Imagine this happened at P7 Connolly Northbound-you could step out in front of a southbound train!! The IRSC need to know this stuff is happening.

Mark Gleeson · 09-03-2006, 14:37

Proof is essential the coach number provides an instant hit as we then now the type its history can be traced, the on train data recorder can be pulled etc. You are dealing with Irish Rail here plausible deniability is there key mantra. It didn't happen. I've been told that before

I've had fun with IE in the past on safety issues specifics are very very useful

Given the layout of GCD its all but impossible to go wrong

If it happened I would have head out door, shout the inevitable question "Are you going to set back ?" and then in a calm and safe manner climb down just to make the point and quickly get to the platform to nab the photo

There was a case in Dalkey some time back on a manual door train

PaulM · 09-03-2006, 14:55

I agree with Mark that proof would be essential and I have none.

Still though, I think I will write to the IRSC. I feel I would be failing my duty (as member of a passenger lobby group) by not doing this.

Who wants to write it for me?

philip · 09-03-2006, 15:14

Nobody's going to court for this-we just want corrective actions taken so it doesn't happen again so we don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt. The IRSC won't know IE drivers have problems stopping trains unless they are informed. Picture the scene;

IRSC guy;"We've had a report about the 17.59 ex Bray overshooting the platform etc. Can we see the black box data please?"
IE guy;"No can do bud, you need the coach number"
IRSC guy;"Find out what set was rostered on that train and find out which coaches led the formation or we'll find out for you"
IE guy;"Ok Ok bud"

If even they make IE aware that they are aware of the issue and are keeping an eye on it it's a job well done. It's not our job as P11 to predict that because IE's response (or lack of) will be lack-lustre and hence do nothing about it, it's our jb to hang 'em out to dry when they're potentially putting people in serious harms way. Even stepping off the train could break an ankle/wrist, particularly in the elderly.

PaulM · 09-03-2006, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip

Nobody's going to court for this-we just want corrective actions taken so it doesn't happen again so we don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt. The IRSC won't know IE drivers have problems stopping trains unless they are informed.

I agree Philip. I would like to say I have proof but I don't. I feel me not writing to the IRSC ensures nothing gets done. Me writing may get something done.

philip · 09-03-2006, 16:15

Yeah, I know it's a pain writing to people who don't seem to care but maybe the IRSC will do summat, we can but hope

Send it registered post if you can do that for free from work.

Mark Gleeson · 09-03-2006, 21:21

Actually the blackbox from the rear unit would do. Put simply at this stage it has been overwritten.

If the RSC was to take formal action there would have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt concerning the events. Remember we need to help the RSC as much as possible. Time is critical to ensure a result.

The majority of incidents are human error, the two overshoots I witnessed where human error in my opinion, after 22 years you get to know the braking points

The last time I had a safety issue (couldn't get out) I calmly noted the coach number. IE denied it happened, there was no entry on the report card (specific to the unit number). Train was subsequently seen by myself in Inchicore 2 weeks later

philip · 09-03-2006, 21:28

They could demand platform CCTV tapes too, they would show any overshoot. What about on train CCTV?

The IRSC are pretty useless if they can't investigate an issue raised by an ordinary member of the public.

Mark Gleeson · 09-03-2006, 22:04

The train in question has fantastic CCTV equipment but no camera angle looks outside, again the system has limited time capacity so it would recycle hard disk space overwritten oldest first. Platform CCTV is not provided at GCD

In the event of a rail safety incident or witnessing a defect on a train the first port of call is the driver, guard or the first member of station staff you find. Note the evening before the still unexplained Potters Bar derailment in London a passenger had reported a rough ride at that point.

To there credit the one time I had to report a incident, missing pantograph wipper blade the member of staff confirmed the train details with me and picked up the phone.

Details or no details each incident should be reported and an overshoot of a suburban type train is serious my point is (and having read too many accident reports) is the truth gets lost in a muddle of poor inconsistent evidence.

philip · 09-03-2006, 22:41

An aircraft black box (even a 20 year old one) is capable of recording days of data. Just how much capacity does the IE black box have?

09-03-2006, 09:21	#1
PaulM Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 826	Carriage skips GCD I was on the 18.20 from Blackrock yesterday, as we pulled into Grand Canal Dock, the DART didn't slow down properly. By the time we came to a complete stop, my carriage, the front one, and I would think the second one, had passed the platform. The train didn't reverse back and no announcement of why was made. Once again top notch customer service from our excellent rail operator.

09-03-2006, 13:26	#9
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	You can't set back generally without permission of the signaller, normal procedure is the call the signaller request permission, change ends move back then change again that proceedure is followed. You can't go back if there is a train behind (there is one timetabled 5 minutes behind which can be only 300m at time) Due to the track layout at GCD setting back is tricky as the overlap beyond the signal before GCD is 20m up the platform so setting back would set the signal at Lansdowne Rd to red thus possibly causing a SPAD incident thus requiring the signaller to take control. The black box records distance, acceleration, braking, postion of the controller handle, antilock brake state and the ATP state it also records the door interlock state so it would be possible to prove an overshoot and that the doors opened. ITs based on establishing a datum point eg Lansdowne Rd stop. The box has a limited storage capacity and unless we have the coach number we are stuffed. Yes this is a breech of safety The Railway Safety Commission 4th Floor Trident House Blackrock Co. Dublin Phone: +353 (0) 1 2068110 Fax: +353 (0) 1 2068115/116 And yes uinlike IE they will write back If I was on board I would have got out (I know what I am doing) and took the photo and opted for the walk to Pearse. Evidence is key coach number train composition, opinion on approach speed Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 09-03-2006 at 13:29.

09-03-2006, 14:37	#12
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Proof is essential the coach number provides an instant hit as we then now the type its history can be traced, the on train data recorder can be pulled etc. You are dealing with Irish Rail here plausible deniability is there key mantra. It didn't happen. I've been told that before I've had fun with IE in the past on safety issues specifics are very very useful Given the layout of GCD its all but impossible to go wrong If it happened I would have head out door, shout the inevitable question "Are you going to set back ?" and then in a calm and safe manner climb down just to make the point and quickly get to the platform to nab the photo There was a case in Dalkey some time back on a manual door train Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 09-03-2006 at 14:40.

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09-03-2006, 09:27	#2
philip Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 632	Did the doors in your car open Paul? (You should make sure to report this, the driver might be dodgy)

09-03-2006, 09:32	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Northern line Posts: 1,311	Did people get out of your carriage?

09-03-2006, 10:17	#4
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	I've got some further insight from Paul It was the 17:59 Bray Malahide It was a Japanese built train The speed limit at this point is 25mph The driver of an 8 coach train can't reverse at this point, a 6 coach can. Reversing a long train would change the signal at Lansdowne Rd back to red in the face of an oncoming train I've seen this before but only under poor conditions, a little bit of rain. In two incidents I can recall the driver did leave the braking way too late. No PA on those occasions either and that was a 4 coach train The anti lock brakes are plain strange its great to 10mph beyond there it takes an an age to slow Yes the train has a black box. IE will deny this happened

09-03-2006, 10:42	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Northern line Posts: 1,311	Was there an 'L' sticker on the front window of the train?

09-03-2006, 12:52	#7
philip Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 632	This is potentially very dangerous (obviously). Imagine some blind guy was alone in the car when that happened or a kid runs to the door and is too short to see out the window before pressing the button and stepping out into the abyss. Even a sighted adult could come a cropper at night with this carry on. Can we contact the IRSC or whoever about this? It's an accident waiting to happen is this.

09-03-2006, 14:14	#11
philip Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 632	Screw the car number-the average joe doesn't even know cars have numbers. Write to the IRSC Paul and explain what happened. Let them ask the awkward questions of IE. This is bang out of order. Imagine this happened at P7 Connolly Northbound-you could step out in front of a southbound train!! The IRSC need to know this stuff is happening.

09-03-2006, 14:55	#13
PaulM Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 826	I agree with Mark that proof would be essential and I have none. Still though, I think I will write to the IRSC. I feel I would be failing my duty (as member of a passenger lobby group) by not doing this. Who wants to write it for me?

09-03-2006, 15:14	#14
philip Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 632	Nobody's going to court for this-we just want corrective actions taken so it doesn't happen again so we don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt. The IRSC won't know IE drivers have problems stopping trains unless they are informed. Picture the scene; IRSC guy;"We've had a report about the 17.59 ex Bray overshooting the platform etc. Can we see the black box data please?" IE guy;"No can do bud, you need the coach number" IRSC guy;"Find out what set was rostered on that train and find out which coaches led the formation or we'll find out for you" IE guy;"Ok Ok bud" If even they make IE aware that they are aware of the issue and are keeping an eye on it it's a job well done. It's not our job as P11 to predict that because IE's response (or lack of) will be lack-lustre and hence do nothing about it, it's our jb to hang 'em out to dry when they're potentially putting people in serious harms way. Even stepping off the train could break an ankle/wrist, particularly in the elderly.

09-03-2006, 16:15	#16
philip Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 632	Yeah, I know it's a pain writing to people who don't seem to care but maybe the IRSC will do summat, we can but hope Send it registered post if you can do that for free from work.

09-03-2006, 21:21	#17
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Actually the blackbox from the rear unit would do. Put simply at this stage it has been overwritten. If the RSC was to take formal action there would have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt concerning the events. Remember we need to help the RSC as much as possible. Time is critical to ensure a result. The majority of incidents are human error, the two overshoots I witnessed where human error in my opinion, after 22 years you get to know the braking points The last time I had a safety issue (couldn't get out) I calmly noted the coach number. IE denied it happened, there was no entry on the report card (specific to the unit number). Train was subsequently seen by myself in Inchicore 2 weeks later

09-03-2006, 21:28	#18
philip Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 632	They could demand platform CCTV tapes too, they would show any overshoot. What about on train CCTV? The IRSC are pretty useless if they can't investigate an issue raised by an ordinary member of the public.

09-03-2006, 22:04	#19
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The train in question has fantastic CCTV equipment but no camera angle looks outside, again the system has limited time capacity so it would recycle hard disk space overwritten oldest first. Platform CCTV is not provided at GCD In the event of a rail safety incident or witnessing a defect on a train the first port of call is the driver, guard or the first member of station staff you find. Note the evening before the still unexplained Potters Bar derailment in London a passenger had reported a rough ride at that point. To there credit the one time I had to report a incident, missing pantograph wipper blade the member of staff confirmed the train details with me and picked up the phone. Details or no details each incident should be reported and an overshoot of a suburban type train is serious my point is (and having read too many accident reports) is the truth gets lost in a muddle of poor inconsistent evidence.

09-03-2006, 22:41	#20
philip Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 632	An aircraft black box (even a 20 year old one) is capable of recording days of data. Just how much capacity does the IE black box have?