Waterford Rosslare to close

haddockman · 04-09-2010, 20:38

Someone mentioned a judicial review may be possible as the method of closing my be unlawful. Is there anyone around with a large wallet willing to pay?

I reckon that the barrow bridge will have a stop order on it fairly fast and that will ensure the line remains closed for ever.

Colm Moore · 04-09-2010, 22:30

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=765

Quote:

UPDATE Waterford to Rosslare rail line services by Corporate Communications

Iarnród Éireann has been advised by the National Transport Authority that the NTA has approved Iarnród Éireann’s application to suspend services on the Waterford to Rosslare line. Iarnród Éireann will implement this subject to the conditions detailed by the NTA.

Iarnród Éireann will now work with Bus Éireann to establish the replacement bus schedule, and will confirm as soon as possible to customers the date on which rail services will be suspended, and replaced by the additional Bus Éireann services. It is expected that this transition will be completed during the month of September 2010.

dowlingm · 05-09-2010, 01:32

haddockman - read the reports. I wonder how much money IE will save in actuality if it keeps to the letter of its commitments to line maintenance.

For the people of South Wexford's sake I would like to see the issue noted with respect to the Passage East ferry resolved. I have taken the ferry (a long time ago) and while I can understand the locals not wanting full size buses through a narrow village, the 28 seater seems like a decent compromise especially when it is a public transport service and not merely a tour bus.

What I regret about the NTA's document is that it did not obligate BE to operate all Waterford services to Waterford Station if coming in along the quay (so far as I can see at any rate). If BE and IE were not "sister companies" you could have seen IE in partnership with a private operator and giving BE a run for their money on Waterford-New Ross-Rosslare. This is not a "replacement service" when it forces a walking transfer to access the rail network.

Alan French · 05-09-2010, 16:42

I have looked through the NTA’s report, and the thing that strikes me is that they are repeating some of the flawed logic behind the arguments originally used for closing railways. They don’t seem to have some of the basic expertise in how the market for public transport works (but then, at lot of people haven’t).

The theory was always that buses could do the job adequately at lower cost. The NTA are using the same old arguments about buses being more flexible and having lower running costs – now they can add to that by saying there will be less emissions. What actually happened in the past was that less people used the replacement bus, since some now went by car and others travelled less often. So the result was more car journeys, less travelling overall, and perhaps not even a saving in public funds.

Connecting traffic on the adjoining lines was also lost. Closures undermined the system as a whole. See how the NTA were dismissive of the SERA’s including the whole route to Limerick Junction in their study – which shows that they don’t realise how inter-dependent each line is on its adjoining lines. (I have elaborated on this in Galway <---> Limerick: The slowest train in Europe? #15.)

Do you notice that the same arguments about buses being cheaper and more flexible, and the roads being so much better now, could be used to justify the closure of many other lines in Ireland? And I don’t just mean Galway-Limerick; on several of the radial routes their line of reason would justify replacement by buses.

There are also implications for introducing frequent train services where there is already a parallel bus route. Trains and buses tend to develop distinct but overlapping markets, because trains have a better record at getting people out of their cars. The growth in inter-city buses hasn’t destroyed the market for the parallel railways – even when the buses are faster.

Notice the contrast: the NTA’s argument is that buses will do the existing train’s job adequately. The SERA focuses on untapped potential (as we have been doing). We could put the question this way: since increased frequency has been so successful on other routes (both rail and bus), why single out certain routes for not getting an increased frequency? If you say that the radial routes are obvious cases whereas Rosslare-Waterford isn’t, then I would say that today’s high frequencies on other routes (hourly or two-hourly) would have been dismissed as ridiculous 40 years ago. “Where would you find the passengers,” people would ask mockingly.

I write this because the NTA is obviously not familiar with these lines of reason. This isn’t surprising; anyone familiar with economics and business generally, but not experienced in public transport, is likely to hold the same set of mistaken assumptions that led to the earlier closures. We have job on our hands educating people about this.

Meanwhile, on the matter of the closure notice: IR are planning to go ahead with the closure on the basis of their earlier notice. I understand that the details of the alternative bus service are a legal part of the notice. Now they say they are entering negotiations with BE. Are they not legally obliged to go with the timetable they have already announced, or else issue a new notice and wait two months? Does anyone know?

A point no one has mentioned: at present I reckon that the train from Rosslare also runs the 12.30 Waterford to Limerick Junction and its return journey at 15.10. What will happen to these?

I don't think it's time to give up yet. There could still be pressure at political level.

Colm Moore · 05-09-2010, 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan French

and the roads being so much better now

But has Rosslare-Waterford got much better? While a few short sections of road have been widened, there has been no major improvement since the Wexford Bypass, opened about 1988. Although the Waterford Bypass does marginally affect things as less traffic is coming in through Ferrycarraig. There is the issue though that traffic expands to fill available road capacity.

dowlingm · 06-09-2010, 03:17

On Morning Ireland the Information Minister rubbished the notion that more services builds ridership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Fearn

‘Frequency of service is very, very low. When I came here I got out the working timetable and I thought: Where’s all the trains!? Five to Galway a day! Even Cork has 2 1/2 hour gaps between trains. We have to ramp up frequency. The very positive stance of the Irish government means we have the opportunity to do this.

dowlingm · 06-09-2010, 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan French

I reckon that the train from Rosslare also runs the 12.30 Waterford to Limerick Junction and its return journey at 15.10. What will happen to these?

Hopefully, the 2700 gets redeployed to a Carlow-Waterford commuter or Clonmel-Waterford commuter and continues as before. (Preferably not sitting on its ass in Waterford for 3 hours).

However, the Limerick Junction-Waterford section is cleared for 3 car 22Ks so maybe one of the Dublin-Waterford sets gets used pending the next swing of the axe.

Colm Moore · 09-09-2010, 19:46

http://irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=900

Quote:

Waterford to Rosslare line - service termination and bus replacement details by Corporate Communications

Waterford to Rosslare Europort line rail services will continue operating up to and including Saturday 18th September.

From Monday 20th September, rail services will be terminated, and customers can avail of the new Bus Éireann schedule operating from that date – full timetable details below.

Existing rail season tickets will be accepted on bus services, and fares on the Bus Éireann services will replicate existing rail fares.

Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann thank customers for their cooperation with these arrangements.

Please click here for the Bus Éireann Timetable http://www.irishrail.ie/upload/370.pdf

iknowwhereiamgoing · 12-09-2010, 17:36

Very bad new indeed. The commitment to maintain this line in order that it could be reopened if conditions improve. Does that mean letting the line deteriorate to the condition of the Midleton - Youghal line. In which case the whole line would have to be rebuilt at great cost. Is there a commitment to send a weed killing train down the line to keep it clear of weeds. Why have I.E. given up on trying to attract frieght to the railway? Why no attempt to trial a decent timetable on this line and others? Do they not take into account the green benefits of railways. If Railways were run strictly on profit and loss there would be little or no railways left. This is one of Irelands most scenic lines, why no thought given to heritage use. What a boost for tourism. No thinking outside the box.

12-09-2010, 17:36	#9
iknowwhereiamgoing New to the board Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11	Waterford to Rosslare Closure Very bad new indeed. The commitment to maintain this line in order that it could be reopened if conditions improve. Does that mean letting the line deteriorate to the condition of the Midleton - Youghal line. In which case the whole line would have to be rebuilt at great cost. Is there a commitment to send a weed killing train down the line to keep it clear of weeds. Why have I.E. given up on trying to attract frieght to the railway? Why no attempt to trial a decent timetable on this line and others? Do they not take into account the green benefits of railways. If Railways were run strictly on profit and loss there would be little or no railways left. This is one of Irelands most scenic lines, why no thought given to heritage use. What a boost for tourism. No thinking outside the box.

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04-09-2010, 20:38	#1
haddockman Regular Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 113	Someone mentioned a judicial review may be possible as the method of closing my be unlawful. Is there anyone around with a large wallet willing to pay? I reckon that the barrow bridge will have a stop order on it fairly fast and that will ensure the line remains closed for ever.

05-09-2010, 01:32	#3
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	haddockman - read the reports. I wonder how much money IE will save in actuality if it keeps to the letter of its commitments to line maintenance. For the people of South Wexford's sake I would like to see the issue noted with respect to the Passage East ferry resolved. I have taken the ferry (a long time ago) and while I can understand the locals not wanting full size buses through a narrow village, the 28 seater seems like a decent compromise especially when it is a public transport service and not merely a tour bus. What I regret about the NTA's document is that it did not obligate BE to operate all Waterford services to Waterford Station if coming in along the quay (so far as I can see at any rate). If BE and IE were not "sister companies" you could have seen IE in partnership with a private operator and giving BE a run for their money on Waterford-New Ross-Rosslare. This is not a "replacement service" when it forces a walking transfer to access the rail network.

05-09-2010, 16:42	#4
Alan French Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 89	I have looked through the NTA’s report, and the thing that strikes me is that they are repeating some of the flawed logic behind the arguments originally used for closing railways. They don’t seem to have some of the basic expertise in how the market for public transport works (but then, at lot of people haven’t). The theory was always that buses could do the job adequately at lower cost. The NTA are using the same old arguments about buses being more flexible and having lower running costs – now they can add to that by saying there will be less emissions. What actually happened in the past was that less people used the replacement bus, since some now went by car and others travelled less often. So the result was more car journeys, less travelling overall, and perhaps not even a saving in public funds. Connecting traffic on the adjoining lines was also lost. Closures undermined the system as a whole. See how the NTA were dismissive of the SERA’s including the whole route to Limerick Junction in their study – which shows that they don’t realise how inter-dependent each line is on its adjoining lines. (I have elaborated on this in Galway <---> Limerick: The slowest train in Europe? #15.) Do you notice that the same arguments about buses being cheaper and more flexible, and the roads being so much better now, could be used to justify the closure of many other lines in Ireland? And I don’t just mean Galway-Limerick; on several of the radial routes their line of reason would justify replacement by buses. There are also implications for introducing frequent train services where there is already a parallel bus route. Trains and buses tend to develop distinct but overlapping markets, because trains have a better record at getting people out of their cars. The growth in inter-city buses hasn’t destroyed the market for the parallel railways – even when the buses are faster. Notice the contrast: the NTA’s argument is that buses will do the existing train’s job adequately. The SERA focuses on untapped potential (as we have been doing). We could put the question this way: since increased frequency has been so successful on other routes (both rail and bus), why single out certain routes for not* getting an increased frequency?* If you say that the radial routes are obvious cases whereas Rosslare-Waterford isn’t, then I would say that today’s high frequencies on other routes (hourly or two-hourly) would have been dismissed as ridiculous 40 years ago. “Where would you find the passengers,” people would ask mockingly. I write this because the NTA is obviously not familiar with these lines of reason. This isn’t surprising; anyone familiar with economics and business generally, but not experienced in public transport, is likely to hold the same set of mistaken assumptions that led to the earlier closures. We have job on our hands educating people about this. Meanwhile, on the matter of the closure notice: IR are planning to go ahead with the closure on the basis of their earlier notice. I understand that the details of the alternative bus service are a legal part of the notice. Now they say they are entering negotiations with BE. Are they not legally obliged to go with the timetable they have already announced, or else issue a new notice and wait two months? Does anyone know? A point no one has mentioned: at present I reckon that the train from Rosslare also runs the 12.30 Waterford to Limerick Junction and its return journey at 15.10. What will happen to these? I don't think it's time to give up yet. There could still be pressure at political level.