general trend in discourtesy
 

So far this week (in 9 journeys) I've seen 3 heavily pregnant women left standing and 2 very elderly women left standing for a considerable time more than one stop at any rate.
Previously, I never noticed this as much, and I'm appaled by the increasing callousness of people in general.
Maybe IE should get signs from RATP that list the priority for every seat (poorly translated from French)
1) veterans injured fighting in wars for france
2) persons with physical injuries or disabilities
3) Elderly or infirm persons
4) pregnant women or parents with young children

I've been noticing this on buses ever since i was small. there was a related thread on the holy position of bags on intercity trains. there is nothing new in it, it is bad, yes i always give up my seat but i think that, as more and more people use public transport it is becoming more and more visable and noticeable.

At the mo there are special seats for designated users on BAC but I dont know about DART/Surburban rail.

There be designated seats on the train but they don't account for pregnant women

Should also note the the general female population will turn down a seat in a 50-50 scenario, if someone offers you a seat be grateful and sit down don't argue with the person offering it, it political correctness gone mad

It is amazing the amount of people who look down when they see a visibly pregnant lady in the hope of them finding a seat somewhere else. Shame on them all.

It seems pregnant women are forced to bring three-legged seats on with them which are dangerous in the event of an accident as they can impede peoples' escape.

In the past I have thought about challenging young men who look away when they see a pregnant woman on the train but as I don't know the pregnant woman, I am not keen to get involved and embarrass them.

I wrote a few letters to the Metro, giving off about it.

Firstly it is extremely inadvisable for a heavily pregnant women to travel during the rush hour, you need a doctors cert to fly. The age old question of over weight vs pregnant haunts blokes

I have first hand experience of people offering their seat up and the offer being refused and I'm telling you you won't be so quick in the future to offer a seat as a result. IF YOU ARE OFFERED A SEAT SIT THE HELL DOWN don't get all politically correct and psychoanalyse the person giving up the seat motives jsut sit down an be thankfull

The priority seats are clearly marked and have extra legroom and if you do meet the thick youth public humiliation is the only solution to getting the seat

I always offer my seat to any elderly / pregnant people on buses or trains.

However one time I was on a bus and I offered an elderly lady who had alot of bags my seat, but she completely took it the wrong way and flipped at me. She started asking me how old I thought she was and obviously didn't like the fact that I thought she was elderly. She started ranting about how she wasn't old and didn't need the seat. She was almost screaming and made quite the scene on the bus - it was probably quite humourous for the other passengers but I was quite taken aback and embarrased really (though really I had no reason to be - just the unwanted attention I suppose).

Unfortunately this incident made me a bit weary of offering older people seats for a while (well at least those who didn't seem too old). Shows you that no good deed goes unpunished...

That is a disgrace, to be shouted at for having manners. I think there is a real problem with people and manners in this country and old senile bats like that just go to show it more.

I used to live in maynooth and get the 7:55 train to pearse. I would generally get on the last carriage as its the closest to the exit in town.

Every morning for about a month a heavilly woman would get on the carriage with the same idea that it was closer to the exit. I would get up and offer her my seat which she would gladly take.

Thing is she started to get embarrassed after a week or so of this and would say no its alright to me in the hope somebody else would offer and the sad thing is nobody did. So again I would get up cos she really needed to take the weight off her back.

Not boasting about my manners but where the hell has most other peoples manners gone to???? Its dissappointing to say the least :confused:

I agree it's disappointing that people won't offer a seat, but people shouldn't be shy about asking for a seat. I remember my wife telling me about getting on a bus with her young son, and a fairly elderly lady offered her a seat, and she said, "no thank you," then then turned to the young man across the aisle from her and said, "but I'll take your's, please."

Needless to say the young man obliged.

Another time I was standing on a pretty packed commuter train in London. There was an elderly who seemed to be hanging onto the handrail, but none of the seated passengers seemed to notice (in fairness, the area we were in was a wheelchair/bicycle area with mainly flip-up seats. I said, "would someone please offer this woman a seat."

I have to say, sometimes it can be pretty hard to tell if a person really needs a seat or not, and we seem to have built up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" culture, where it's offensive both to give up your seat, and not to.

It is not just elderly ladies that I have offered my seat to.

I get the 1719 service out of Lansdowne to Donabate each evening (although they changed the timetable from 1723 to 1719 it still comes at around 1723).

Last December there was a mid-thirties lady with her Christmas Shopping in paper bags. The floor was soaked with dirty footprints and she was struggling to stand under the weight of the bags. I gave her my seat and she sat with the bags on her knees.

Being a 29 year old male I am probably one of the least deserving people on the train for a seat so would give it up to just about anyone.

I do get very annoyed with people sitting on the ground or on portable seats though.

I don't - people can be very tired after a long day. Provided they are not blocking an aisle or otherwise getting in the way.

On the wider issue of giving up seats, I have yet to be in a position to do this, but have encountered 'borderline' situations, where a middle-aged 40-50 woman looks a bit weary or whatever. Generally I wouldn't mind speaking out in public, but on a commuter train with the same people every day I would get embarrassed at being rejected by some stubborn PC 'lady' in front of everyone, and so remain put, especially in the context of my rushing about all day, being wrecked and that being the first chance to sit down - I probably need the seat more than she does anyway. But certainly if the case is more clear cut, there is no disputing matters.

One situation I was in on a Commuter however really p*ssed me off, and goes to show just how bitchy women can be. I was sitting at a table, on the aisle seat, with a woman of about 40 sitting opposite me, also on the aisle. There was a man sitting beside me at the window with his laptop. Standing right beside me but slightly behind, was a heavily pregnant woman. Naturally I didn't see her in that position, but the woman directly opposite me clearly could. The man beside me happened to sit up and turn around from his computer and noticed her, and immediately offered his seat, closing up his laptop. I then, now looking like an ignoramus (younger than the man too), had to get up to let her in. It subsequently emerged when I sat down later at the table and the woman opposite began talking to her, that she "was waiting for that gentleman to stand up" and give her the seat!

I was ready to hit her a slap - especially in the context of her glancing at me and pouting "a least there's some real gentlemen left". She was willing to let this woman remain standing, and was also willing to allow a man with laptop pack up and offer his seat instead of her. She also didn't have the courtesy to even politely 'suggest' to me that I offer my seat, on the chance I hadn't seen her.

On the topic of fold-up seats, from a Northern Line Commuter:

Getting embarassed: How to avoid the PC brigade
 

You can always get up and pretend to be moving to some other part of the Carriage/Luas/Bus and hope that the seat is taken by the elderly/pregnant/tired/otherwise deserving person and not by some other able bodied punter. If you don't say anything you risk not getting somebodies back up, just get the hell out.

Personally, if I give someone the seat I don't like to be anywhere near the area coz you have to put up with the gooing and gaaing of aul wans and their "isn't he great/gentleman" stuff. You don't give them the seat because you are some sort of a nice person. You give them the seat so that they don't fall on top of you or someone else. i.e. avoiding a mess that will need to be cleaned up and will delay your journey.

Note: I'm not actually a nice person :D

This entire issue was discussed with IE last week at the shindig in Cork. Louise, our secretary, my wife and sole female member of the committee, has also contributed to the Gerry Ryan show on the very topic of Pregnant women on trains. The concensus arrived at is that signage should be adapted and posters etc should be used to promote the many types of people who should be offered a seat. The wording is being worked on as we speak and will be presented to the accessibility people in IE and promoted in the media. But remember, that day jobs come first, so we can't produce miracles overnight.

When my wife is pregnant she just picks out some young lad on the train or bus, points at her belly and asks him politely to stand up. Never fails. People should be less embarrassed and fearful of talking to each other.

I hope she gets trumped by an amputee one day.

Signs would help.

Well when IÉ do get round to initiating the campaign Derek, kindly inform them not to paste giant priority stickers onto the windows as they currently do - there's feck all window space as it is on its DMU fleet :mad:

A worthy campaign though.

Alas, you put too much faith in the human race. I've seen people give up their seat to an elderly/pregnant person, only to have some git in a suit jump in and grab the seat before they can take it. The person said, "hey, that wasn't for you," but only got a shrug in response. Someone else ended up giving their seat to the deserving person rather than making a fuss. Thankfully, I haven't seen this happen in Dublin yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

If you leave it to chance, there's no hope of the intended person getting it.

Well I can understnad the sentiment of the added comment, but standing at peak times in the norm around the world, and if we were to give every peak commuter a seat, we would have a huge fleet of trains sitting idle for most of the day. However, I think the current situation is unacceptable. We should aim for a maximum standing time of around 15-20 mins. On the Northern line having to stand, often pressed against a crowd of people for 45 mins to an hour is common.

More trains are needed, and progress is slowly being made in this direction, but people sitting on folding seats or on the floor of packed trains are clearly making the situation worse. I don't think folding seats are acceptable at any time - people tend to plonk them in the middle of the passageway or blocking the inter-carriage doors, and they impede passage through the train.

I don't mind sitting on the floor when the train is only slightly over the seated capacity, but as soon as the train starts to fill up, they really must stand up - for their own safety as well as consideration of other passengers. I see people sprawled across the floor with a big crowd around them, and the suspension on our commuter trains is not good enough to stop a minor jolt sending the whole crowd a step in any direction, so these people are at severe risk of getting trampled.

A folding seat seems to take up the space of two standing passengers.

A person on the ground seems to take up the space of three.

On the morning train out of Donabate at 8.15, I am pushed so tightly against other passengers yet these people are on the ground with their seats. If they have a disability they should make it known to people in priority seats.

If someone is on the floor, I go right over to where they are and open my newspaper and hold it over their heads. It means that I can hold it open with leisure in the space over them and not bump it off fellow passengers. It also ensures a pretty uncomfortable journey for the lazy, selfish person on the floor as the light for them is blocked out by my paper and they are forced to stare at my crotch for the duration of the journey.

People also tend to tuck their legs in when I come near so I position my feet so they can't move them out again and are forced into the foetal position.

As I have said, I would gladly give up my seat to anyone at all that I think are more worthy than me but when it comes to having my face in someone's armpit while a 22 year old guy sits on the floor playing his PSP, I am going to try to do something about it.

I can name two senior IE managers who are Northern line passengers, fat lot of good they have done, probably they are camped out in the cab with the driver

There seems to be good craic in the driver's cab facing away from the direction of travel.

It is not uncommon to see 2 or 3 railway officials in there having a laugh, not having to sit in with the commoners like me.

I don't advocate violence but a good smack in the mouth to said individual in the suit might teach him a lesson :mad:

I might have obliged if I'd been in range, but I was standing at the other end of the carriage. Probably a good thing, as I could do without a run-in with London Metropoliton Police.

Mark, i dont normally post but i could'nt let this go!!

There are hundreds of women who MUST travel on the train at peak times because they do work, they do have hospital appointments and they do have lives!!

As Derek has announced, i am working on a campaign at the moment relating to this issue and i would hope that you and i can set up a sub-committee so i can educate you on the fine art of being a women in the modern world? We can stick a cushion up your top with weights in it and give you an idea of what its like to carry that weight around all day.

I assume Thomas J would get in on this one as well, he's plenty of experience with pregnant women.
As for pregnant V fat, you take your chances in this life!

Anyone fancy the 17:13 Pearse Dundalk tonight, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, its its hay day without air conditioning it was a mobile medical experiment in stamina how long can you stand in 30+ degrees

Safety is the key concern at all times it would be fairly trivial to construct a list of no go trains where crowding is such that even if someone did offer you a seat you still have a 8-10 foot wall of people to push through. It is a miracle that no one has been seriously injured yet, statistically we are overdue an accident, IE know that.

We have a fairly unique situation in Dublin where heavy crush loading is practice not a rare occurance, the busiest train in the UK takes only 1200 (12 coaches with first class), in Dublin there would be upwards of 10 trains each day that break 1200, the 8:08 Malahide to Dun Laoghaire between Connolly and Tara Street loads to 1400 ish on a bad day.

We have to be realistic the rush hour is a no go for anyone who shouldn't be left in a stressful situation or left standing for a long period of time that covers pregnant women through to the elderly. The fact crowding is so bad is something we can beat IE with

I have lived in London (recently) and would have to say that the commuter behaviour on board the London Underground and other systems is light years better than Dublin.

It's incrediable the way people over here just push onto the Luas making it almost impossible to get off. I've had incidents where people have refused to let me out of the Luas, just wouldn't move despite a lot of asking, tapping on the shoulders etc. Leaving me with no option except to be very pushy and squeeze my way off. There was still plenty of space up the coach they simply wouldn't get away from the door area.
My elderly grandmother was on the redline and swore she'd never use it again. She was trying to get off at Smithfield and ended up stuck on the tram the whole way to Connolly and walking back! She now won't use the trams at all unless they're relatively empty and prefers to use buses if it's busy.

And, while that particular incident mentioned above in London was bad. In general I find that Londoners will automatically give up a seat to an elderly person, disabled person or pregnant lady without having to be asked.

They also generally don't try and board a train / bus while other people are exiting.

Seems that no one has any cop on about use of public transport here anymore.

Both Luas and DART vechicles/platform automatic announcements need to be shouting "PLEASE ALLOW PASSENGERS TO LEAVE THE TRAIN BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO BOARD!!!"

As for heavily pregnant women using public transport. I was on a tube one afternoon and a lady boarded who was litterally in labour. We (some passengers and a London underground lady) had to pretty much lift her off, link her along to the escalators.. get her up onto street level and call an ambulance. She'd been attempting to get to the hospital by tube and her waters broke en route! Thankfully, there was an ambulance along within about 5 mins.

Erm, yeah...... but I'm not dressing in drag with a bleeding baloon up a jumper again.

Mark is probably tapping his pipe against his desk at work.... hurmppph, women, they relly should know their place.....

Nice for Derek to announce it for you.......

Favourite film:



Starring Ewan McGregor as MarkG

Well the woman sitting next to me got up to let a pregnant woman sit this morning (I was stuck in my PDA and hadn't seen her), but I managed a last moment save for chivilry and said "you sit back down, I'll stand".

I'll put manners on the lot of you yet!!:D

I used to commute from Mullingar to Dublin and I was on crutches at one stage for 2 weeks. People just wouldn't give me a seat. I used to get a bus out to UCD and it was the same on that.

I used to have to stand in a crammed train until a seat came free usually around Maynooth. Even when a seat came free it was like a race to get to it before someone else took it. The worst thing was where a woman said to me at connolly that I could have her seat when she got off in Maynooth. Thanks a million!

I remember also being on an extremely quiet, almost empty lunchtime train and putting my heavily bandaged leg up on the seat opposite. No shoe, just bandages. A grumpy IE man in an orange jacket came and shouted at me and told me seats were not for feet.

At the risk of playing devil's advocate here, there is a certain reason for people not giving up seats: most commuters I imagine are simply very tired, especially in the evenings. If they've been vying for a seat all week, and they finally get one after a long day, and maybe only two days in the week, the last thing they want to do is give it up – especially in the context of standing for up to an hour as the potential alternative.

I appreciate that is no excuse for allowing somebody to stand who clearly needs a seat more than you do, but it is fair to say that the public in general isn't quite the shower of ignorant b*stards as is often painted - uncharitable perhaps, but not wholly inconsiderate. There is an unstated rule of 'we're all in this together', so whether you're 25 or 55 you take what you're given; everyone is tired, every one is peed off, so just be quiet and get on with it - some of us will stand today, others tomorrow etc.

There is also a certain element of waiting for someone else to give up a seat before you have to, though certainly this does not explain how some worthy people are left standing after more than a minute or two – completely unacceptable.

Where the problem arises is when this 'commuter culture' of taking what you're given doesn't take into account 'outsiders' - the elderly, pregnant women, people with a physical impairment etc etc - often persons that don't use commuter services normally. Commuters also switch into a self-absorption mode, sitting down and taking out a book to read, or going asleep, or spreading the broadsheet that restricts one's view of other passengers - all blocking out the outside world, which is understandable but it makes them oblivious to others’ needs.

So it is often up to other commuters to inform each other of a person that shouldn’t be standing, and similarly sitting people also ought to pay more attention, as much as they may not want to.

Whereas it’s simply not acceptable to let patently unsuited people stand on services, the situation isn’t always as clear cut as ‘young people nowadays, I don’t know…’. On modern day services everyone just accepts the situation, takes their lot when they can, and put up with it when they don't.
It’s when they become oblivious to clearly needy people, that things fall apart.

As a general rule of thumb, if someone looks like they need a seat more than you, offer it.

There was a time when no gentleman would leave a lady standing. Personally I'm glad that time has passed, not because it would mean I'd never get a seat, but because by treating women as frail and weak, we devalue everyone.

I find it frustrating when I see someone who clearly needs a seat left standing, but I find the "young people of today" attitude equally offensive. I have often found my self in the "is she or isn't she?" dilema, and I'm not sure what you should do in that situation.

To a certain extent, I think that if you wait around expecting someone to offer you a seat, you're at least 50% to blame. Is it fair to expect people to know that you need one? Most commuters aren't actually psychic, I'm afraid. I will happily offer my seat to someone who needs, but I tend to spend much of the journey engrossed in my own activities (I typed 600 words on the train this morning, despite standing for half the journey), so is it my responsibility to notice you?

It hasn't happened to me, but I've heard of people who've offered their seat and been given out for assuming the person wasn't able to stand. Is it any wonder people are reluctant to offer their seat?

If you see someone, and they look like they need a seat, politely offer it.

If someone offers you a seat and you feel you need it, politely accept.

If someone offers you a seat and you don't feel you need it, politely decline.

If you are standing, and you feel you need a seat for any reason, politely ask someone if you may have theirs. I know two people who take this approach, and they have yet to be refused.

I'm still thinking about how best to handle this, but if you are standing, and you see someone who looks like they need to sit, the best thing might be to politely ask them if they need to sit down. Someone ought to get the hint at that point, but if they don't, ask on their behalf.

Yep - a good rule of thumb lostcarpark. I have yet to see a person that asks for a seat on behalf of someone else be declined, and it's good that many people aren't afraid to do this - generally for elderly people who don't like causing a fuss but are clearly in discomfort.

It is a very fair point to make though that men shouldn't always have to offer a seat simply on a practical basis - we'd never get to sit down otherwise!
It is especially difficult being a young male though - you always get, if not dirty, then at least blank looks from the odd person, generally non-commuters too. But what can you do? - if I could get a discounted 'male standing ticket' I'd actively consider it!

People are also increasingly good at seat rotation - asking each other where they are getting off and adjusting positions accordingly: a good idea.
Not all is bad. If anything, it seems buses are the real problem in this country - a lot of reports of needy people being left standing on that mode.
People just seem to wrap themselves up in the sheltered cocoon that coach seating enables, and ignore everyone else. Rail is more social, and forces one to be civil - well, most people anyway.