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[article] Rail plans on the wrong track
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© The Irish Times 2006 |
Brilliant.
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Excellent. Just the sort of reasoned coverage we need.
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You would expect nothing less from Frank McDonald, solid researched piece with viewpoints from a wide number of people
A certain other newspaper could learn a thing or two about doing proper research and presenting an accurate account of the issues |
Wouldn't it be great if everything he said wasn't true
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Two of those shortcomings in integration could be solved. Will they I wonder?
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The O'Connell St Metro stop, could be integrated with Luas Red line by shifting the line east a little and putting the station directly under Abbey St. It would mean the station would have to be mined, though, which would add to the cost. The Maynooth line connection is easily fixed, either by putting a mined station directly under Prospect, or more easily by moving it to Durmcondra. And, of course, there's no sane reason not to make use of the Park Tunnel. All that would seem to be required is a connection from the Drumcondra line to the temporary station. This would add considerable value to the €30 million price tag for the temporary station. |
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The only reason the metro station is outside the Gresham and not nearer Abbey Street is to accomodate the Tara Street/Tara/Trinity stop in the vicinity of the Screen cinema. |
Wouldn't the logical option be:
Station 1 Grafton Street from the Interconnector & Luas running down Grafton Street say as far as South Anne St Station 2 O'Connell from Gresham to Abbey St The distance between Abbey St and Bewleys is negligable to all except the infirm or incapicitated |
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I have to say no, it wouldnt, however I do agree with dropping the middle station. Are you advocating a 100m*50m metro station on Grafton Street? Levels arent accommodating there but think of the unneccessary disruption it would cause. The west side of St. Stephen's Green is the only logical location for the metro station in that area. Once the middle station is removed the need for deviation is removed and thus the metro station can be placed at any point along O'Connell Street. The gaps between St. Stephen's Green and the top of O'Connell Street could be filled by Luas line BX with stops at Dawson, Westmoreland, O'Connell Street (Outside Easons) and then at the top of O'Connell Street be it Rotunda, Parnell, Gresham or whatever. I believe that placing the metro station nearest the red line would be the most logical. It is possible and the ideal location is between the red line and the spire. |
Yeah,
the metro stop entranc on O'Connell st should be the minimum distance possible from the Luas on Abbey st. and the luas stop on O'Connel st i.e. on O'Connell st, outside the former AIB now a pub near Quinn Insurance, outside Supermacs, and two entrances further north on O'Connell st one east, one west The Metro stop and Interconnector entrance on St Stephen's Green should be the minimum distance possible from the existing luas stop. i.e entrance in front of either abn ambro or the RCS Anything else is arseboxing really. Building two new rail lines without tight integration is not on. Getting the underground entrance close is a must I think. I mean people think the dart and luas are connected at connolly because you go into Connolly up a flight of stairs. people don't think the luas and sherrif st are interconnected because you will have to walk outside (in the rain and cold) but it's about the same distance from platform 7. |
And as dodgy as connolly is at night its safer than walking down shefiff street. And o connell streets hardly the safest place either.How many people would want to walk down it at night to make their transfer.
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In a lot of cities where there are metro systems there can be a long walk underground (often helped by travelators) between two different lines at the same station. But as colmd has already mentioned because you don't have to go outside it doesn't bother anyone.
If you're changing from metro to regional rail (eg. metro to RER in Paris) they have a special entrance for people coming from the metro. That seems to be what is being talked about for Stephen's Green but it is something they should consider doing at any points of interchange between different modes of transport. |
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At one stage we were going to have the Interconnector station on one corner of Stephen's Green and the Metro station on another, so you'd have to get the escalator to ground level, walk along one side of the Green and take the escalator back down. Fortunately some sense has been seen, and an integrated Stephen's Green station is now on the drawing board. But the broader message hasn't sunk in yet. Anywhere that a new line crosses an existing one, we must have a single, well designed and integrated station. It's not an add-on or a nice-to-have, it's vital to the development of the city. If it's not possible at the easiest crossing point, move the new line until you find a workable crossing point. This is why most of P11 now seem to favour a Metro going via Drumcondra. |
Even when lines were both built years apart they can manage to integrate them well in other countries. I think a great comparison with Drumcondra would be here at Partick in Glasgow. I've used it dozens of times and it's so handy to take a bus just as far as the station then take either the Underground or the Glasgow version of DART (Glasgow has the best suburban rail network in the UK outside London) to either Buchanan St or Glasgow Central (undergrond heavy rail station). Partick has one ticket office for both the Underground and for 'DART', despite the 'DART' being run by FirstScotRail and the Underground being run by Strathclyde Passenger Transport (the DTO with balls!!) themselves.
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[Irish Times letter] DUBLIN'S RAIL CONNECTIONS
Madam, - We welcome Frank McDonald's continued support for the underground DART interconnector (The Irish Times, May 26th). As well as dramatically improving the frequency and capacity on all Greater Dublin area rail lines, this will fully integrate all modes - Dart, Commuter, Intercity, Luas and Metro - into a cohesive network.
However, we would not agree that a "freestanding approach" is being taken to the various investment schemes, "hindering" integration. The logical conclusion from the argument that integration is not being achieved between Iarnród Éireann and Railway Procurement Authority schemes under Transport 21, due to walking distances of up to 350 metres between modes, is that integration between rail modes barely exists anywhere in the world. Such interchange distances - and indeed much longer distances in many cases - are extremely common internationally in systems which all observers would readily accept are integrated, such as London Underground, Paris Metro, and their linkages with wider commuter and inter-city rail travel. The high frequency and capacity of these systems ensures that usage is maximisedand that modest transfer distances do not discourage commuters from using public transport. There is already heavy interchange of customers between Dart and Commuter services at Connolly Station and the Luas Red Line Connolly terminus, where the distance between the Dart/Commuter platforms and the Luas stop is similar to that being presented as some sort of drastic obstacle to integration at Docklands. The location of our Docklands station, opening next year, will ensure easy interchange with the extended Luas Red Line and also allows services to continue operating while the underground Dart interconnector is constructed. The use of the Phoenix Park tunnel to Docklands for Kildare services would not add any capacity to the system, but would rather result in Kildare commuters taking longer to get to the city centre than they do currently, and prevent planned expansion in the Maynooth line and proposed Dunboyne/Pace line services. Finally, we are working closely with the RPA to ensure our services integrate closely at all interchange points on the network being funded by Transport 21, including interchanges between the Maynooth commuter line and Metro North and Metro West and between the underground Dart interconnector and the Metro, Luas Red and Luas Green Lines. - Yours, etc, BARRY KENNY, Manager, Corporate Communications, Iarnród Éireann, Connolly Station, Dublin 1. |
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....oh and Barry, if you're working so closely with the RPA you should really know that it stands for Railway Procurement Agency :rolleyes: |
I suddenly feel the urge to write a letter to a certain newspaper....
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Marko get writing. That letter is a disgrace. You cant compare Dublin with London and Paris. Of course 100 year old metro systems are going to be ad hoc but we are building a new network from scratch so to speak and have no excuse not to get it right.
I wonder if the RP - Authority (Now thats funny!) will reply. |
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Economical with the truth..again.
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- I'm going to hold you to that Barry. |
Maybe IE havn't been aware of the system in the RER in Paris, developed in the '70s, with cross platform interchange[1]. comparing Ireland's new 350m interchanges with Le Metropolitan from 2 centuries ago while ignoring what happened 30 years ago in the same cities....
Maybe they're ignorant or maybe they're stupid or maybe they're trying to con us. [1] Sato & Essig, Japan railway and transport review March 2000. |
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Those cross platform transfers work like a dream, the RER used the Tokyo system as a model. I dont think anyone is looking for that ( obviously ) in Drumcondra but if anyone has used Brixton tube to train in London will know what should be built in Drumcondra at the very least as a Dart/Metro interchange. I guess the only good thing about Barry's letter is that he didnt claim that an interchange between Maynooth line at Sherriff st and DART was the type common the world over :( |
Really wonder does Barry want to get caught out since the last few letters to the press have had gapping holes, its not as if Mr Kenny doesn't know what we know, if the 350m was undercover on a travelator sure we could forget about it, but since there is no phyiscal connection its not integrated
Rule one in PR is to keep quiet when you are ahead |
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Joe Meagher while Chief Executive of Iarnród Éireann went on record in front of the joint oireacthas committee on Feb 25th 2004 Quote:
I know quite a few people in Kildare/Newbridge who work in the IFSC (not to mention the south city Grand Canal Dock etc), and the Park Tunnel would be faster. Its 5 minutes from platform to Luas stop in Heuston, wait 3 minutes, its too full, wait another 4, get moving 12 minutes later Connolly, thats 24 minutes, its another 7 minutes on foot to Mayor Street, 31 minutes total, by train 15 minutes plus 5 walk. You could of course get out at Drumcondra its only 15 minutes to O'Connell Street And I see no reason why the line speed through Cabra couldn't be lifted to 70mph its dead straight for about 1.8km with approaches at 30 mph no hassle accelerate to 70 cruise and brake in that distance that would chop lumps out of the time |
Apart from the glaring mistakes in the use of Spencer Dock the one thing that I cant take is being treated like an idiot. The integration between the Docklands station at Sheriff Street and the proposed Luas red line is a 350m walk, there's no mistaking that.
A lot of our arguements could have been avoided if IE had come out from the start and said - We're sticking it here because we're building a station over there in the meantime. Yes we know its a walk, we apologise but we shall provide lighting, paving, signage etc. It will last for 10 years and then we will have proper integration. I just dont like when IE thinks it can blindfold Joe Public. The sad thing is that it'll be a real eyeopener when people get off expecting the Luas in front of them. Tell the truth Barry. |
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Ah jaysus...............
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There is a big difference bewteen walking from Sherriff Street Station to a LUAS stop (not even a terminus stop) and what Barry says above. It is akin to the walk from Bua Aras to Connolly Station. Would Barry Kenny say that Connolly Station and Bus Aras are integrated? No. Next: Quote:
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There is no intgration at Botanic Road. There is no intgration proposed at Drumconrda, as the midland line trains bypass the station. This is another fine example of non-integration of services totaly and compleatly within his companies controll. It is misleading to state "is that integration between rail modes barely exists anywhere in the world" integration on the model defended by Barry barely exists anywhere in the world. Again, there is no integration needed in the examples he is using, as they are all within the same phyical locale. EG using a travelator to go from Teminals 1 to 4 in Heathrow isnt intgrated, its the same system. On that logic Platform 1 and 8 in Heuston are fully integrated. Quote:
This is just so bad, its enraging. I'm sure that Barry will be there at Sherrif Street, dressed as a clown, when it opens, telling those people who have to wealk in the rain to a small LUAS stop that it's intgrated. But maybe he'll be on holidays that week. |
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Mark G,
that Joe Meagher quote is dynamite! brilliant stuff. Mark eile, they should have come out and said about the temporary situation but are they gonna put in lighting/paving/shelter? could the Luas enquiry direct the railway procurement "Lads" to build a temporary stop at the intersection with Spencer dock? Like is it within their power to do so not "Is it likely that that will hapen?" |
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Cullen announced the Docklands station on 9th March.
Our submission re. luas lineC1 went in 20th Febuary, which I suppose was near the closing date for submissions. Was this delay a ploy by CIE/IE to distance themselves from the flak of a non integrated solution as is being proposed now? So no one could submit to ensure there was a luas stop at the intersection of the two lines (in the euclidean sense of infinitely long lines, the train line would cross the tram line) As Docklands station is not "Spencer dock station" would/Could the inspector disregard the submission regarding this? |
Well it wasn't till March 13th that DCC got the planning application, I didn't see it till a week or so later. It could be a cunning plan or it could be they just don't talk to each other and that looks the more plausible
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not to worry, I'm sure the good people in the DTA will have made an issue of this.....;)
I suppose I'll have to use Hanlon's razor in this. |
it is no good complaining now
i am not impressed by your arguments i am afraid. I had a look at the plans for the luas today and it is blindly obvious that there won't be any interchange. Did you raise this in your submission . if not, then as the only people talking any sense , you have let us down.
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MarkG and I are working on the response to Barry Kenny right now. Hopefully, it will make Thursdays edition of the Times.
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yes
yes i would accept that. But you as a group are making it your business to represent the consumer in all matter rail. It is clear that it was obvious that the was no connection between the two routes. It remains doubtful that there will be a connection in the future.
If this had been raised at the planning application stage for the train station it might have changed things. I assume that you will make a submission to the luas extension enquiry. You should ask for the tram stops to be moved. With this in mind there are two simple alterations that would not change the timetable for the luas. First move the spencer dock stop so that is lies over the future rail track. Or second remove both the mayor square stop and the spencer dock stop and replace them with a single stop just to the west of the canal , on mayor street. Then the tram stop would be very close to a possible train station underneath. Continued support for this joke is not an option. |
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I think a fair way to describe Platform 11 is as a group that seeks to act in the interests of others that are similarly outside of the process and the railway planning establishment. This board has no statuatory footing - it is comprised of interested parties and individuals. Don't come to the party empty handed - bring something other than criticism. |
As has been pointed out the submission deadline for the Luas C1 inquiry was the 23rd Feb, plans for Spencer Dock were submitted to DCC 13th Mar
Moving the stop is not a valid option for two reasons. 1) It is then distant from the permanent underground station at Spencer Dock which will be carrying 4 times more people 2) The square at Spencer Dock is designed to allow for a stop to fit as has the traffic plan of the area, there is a bridge at the Mayor Street/Guild Street over the canal which has road traffic on its outer lanes Objecting to the station as proposed is fruitless as no other option exists, it can't be moved to a more accessible location. In addition if permission was refused, the line to Pace and hence Navan would be on hold until post 2015, it a no win situation as any action to block the station will lead to more trouble elsewhere. And before someone says Broadstone thats no good either and its got nothing to do with the RPA its to do with a planning condition on the Hansfield SDZ. The only issue we would love to disagree with is the track layout of the station but Iarnród Éireann are exempt from planning regulations in that matter and we have no recourse of appeal (and I have checked) I've seen the blood drain out of the faces of senior Irish Rail mangers when they get caught out in Newbridge in March when the Spencer Dock Kildare question was posed they well know. This is miles more complex than what the media make it out, and your simplistic approach is not helpful |
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