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[article] Iarnrod Eireann urged to reopen tunnel
Needless to say this all started because Platfrom 11 made the d connector presentation
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And the evidence http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate...Node=11&Page=5 Quote:
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Note to Irish Rail.....
IT WON'T GO AWAY YOU KNOW! |
It's amazing how the Park Tunnel was hidden away to such an extent that it was almost an urban legend!!
Now that everyone knows about it they'll be hounded into using it. Why are they so afraid of it? Is there a big scary monster living down there? |
I will never rest until I see it used as part of an integrated rail plan.
Facts as things stand now. 1. It can be used for Kildare line services on Sundays. (an IE manager told me at a public meeting last year that this would confuse passengers! A division of services is currently operating on the Maynooth line. Oopps I forgot, that suits them.) 2. It could have been used to route Kildare services to Docklands. IE promised this as per the info we gave to the Irish Times. P11 is determined to get answers as to why this didn't happen. 3. New stations should be provided in the areas of Blackhorse ave, Cabra and Phisboro. 4. If the interconnector is actually built, the PPT route allows these new stations to connect with the interconnector and metro. We open up huge areas of the north city to rail transport. Commuter services from the Kildare line and beyond can be divided between interconnector and PPT. Everybody wins. Integration would be vastly improved. 5. Both the SRR, PFC and Transport 21 have ignored the vast potential of the route. P11 continue to be the only transport body that recognises the merits of using this route. 6. The key to its success (Spencer Dock) has been compromised by CIE. It can be trully said that they don't appear to give a damn about communities along the PPT line. It will continue to be a missing link and may well haunt us long after the current crop of P11 people have departed. Personally, this piece of infrastructure continues to niggle at me and Im gobsmacked by the attitude displayed towards it. It will always be a missing link in the apparent grand plan that is T21. |
Is it all down to some sort of division of services?
Are Connolly services "not allowed" mix with Heuston services because "that's always been the way." Is this the same way that you can buy tickets from all the machines on the "Southern & Western" (Heuston) division ticket machines to anywhere except stations that are served from Connolly. (i.e. you can buy Tullamore to any of those dodgy south Wexford Halts but not to Drogheda) They also seem to run the Galway services as a completely separate entity from the Mayo services which means that the intervals between services is strange. Could this hark back to the fact that some of the services were Midland Great Western and some were Great Southern or something like that..... enough of the conspiracy theories, just get the thing opened. |
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Other than capacity issues (are they real?) is there anything else stopping IE opening this route?
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If i may play devils advocate for a minute...... Is there a danger in "politicians minds" it may become a choice between the PPT and the interconnector. Maybe (just maybe) IE are worried about this happening!!!
Maybe the best way of achieving P11's vision of an integrated rail plan involving the PPT, is for the Interconector to come first, then develop the PPT rout. However, i do appreciate that the life of hundreds of commuters could be made much easier if it the rout was opened right now!!!...... I just don't want it to be at the expense of the interconnector, and a truly integrated system. Some politicians are only to willing to jump on any band wagon to damage T21. |
Believe it or not back in the 1900's there was a service from North Wall to Sallins. Most people don't know that there was a previous station in the Docklands, its still there and owned by CIE in fact its where the new Docklands station was designed
Iarnrod Eireann are on record in the early 1990's stating Kildare line trains would serve Connolly, have that in writing At the same presentation that Joe Meagher promised the Park Tunnel they also gave the interconnector plug. That was evidence before a oireacthas committee The map which accompanied the Interconnector presentation given to the IEI had the park tunnel route on it The investment program with the Park Tunnel in it was approved by the DoT back in 2004, again have it in writing There is solid evidence that post Kildare Route Project 30% of all passengers arriving into Heuston will have no access to public transport to the city, why since the Luas and Bus are incapable of carrying the numbers involved diverting a number of trains via the Park Tunnel resolves this So what we have is numerous on the record promises, the Park Tunnel route serves a completely different market to the interconnector since it takes in the north city. The cost was zero until IE screwed it up |
I presume you mean by
a: not putting in a diamond of some sort at Cross Guns or b: changing the track layout just north of docklands so Drumcondra services couldn't get to it. |
Glasnevin option is not a starter on capacity
It still appears with some minor property purchases the connection is possible in Docklands |
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There was a scheduled Connolly to Limerick run through the PPT this morning...if the RPSI can do it without affecting scheduled services, how come Irish Rail can't?
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Would if effect Capacity that much at rush hour to have 3/4 trains go from Dun Laoire to Kildare?
There must a good number of people drive from their home in Kildare to work in areas south of Pearse as there's no single form of transport to get them there. |
No space south of Pearse for any extra trains, its already at its limit, no extra trains to run such a service exist
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Would there ever be a point in the future there would be capacity south of Pearse to allow Dun Laoighaire to Kildare via improved signalling rearrange current schedule etc?
Out of curiousity how far a walk is it from the Luas stop at Heuston to the PPT platform? |
half a mile or ~800m
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kevin |
What do you reckon the time difference would be to say Connolly by PPT versus normal stop at Heuston and Luas to Connolly?
Would be very handy for the airport/ industrial estates around Santry for Kidare passengers if DB could co-ordinate a bus service around the train. That is until Metro comes along and makes life a lot easier again! |
There are some ground rules:
1. Any service which does use the tunnel, must be in addition to those currently scheduled Why, as not to negatively effect those happy with Heuston, we will call them the Jervisites not forgetting those looking for a intercity connection 2. Any service which does run through the tunnel must operate via the Drumcondra line and serve Drumcondra Why, rebuilding Glasnevin Junction is too expensive and not worth the little benefit it offers. Stop in Drumcondra enhances access to Croke Park, and north city with excellent bus interchange 3. Any train which operates through the tunnel cannot do so at the price of the cancellation of a service elsewhere. Why, removal of an established and busy service isn't in the passenger interest 4. The only realistic option is Docklands Why, space in Connolly doesn't exist at peak times. |
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Attachment 508
Attachment 509 Here is an interesting picture of an A39 hauled train at Dalkey(my local station) coming from Hueston.It is on route to Wicklow as it can be seen in the next picture pulling up at Kilcoole at a later stage. The point I'm trying to make is that IE could operate extra services from the likes of Galway/Athlone to Gorey/Rosslare via the Phoenix Park Tunnel (Phunnel as one of you called it).Assuming it called at all stations to Hueston it could then call at Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Lansdowne Rd, Sydney Parade, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey, Bray and all stations to Gorey.Therefore they would act as EXTRA Galway services, Dublin Express Services and Gorey bound services to the lack thereof, benefitting a huge percentage of people. The Mark IV Intercity services and 22000 Intercity services are supposed to be replacing their predecessors.Instead they could put the old units through refurbishment/maintenance like the LHB DART stock so that the spare units could be used on lines where there is still a lack of service. The idea of this would be to balance the amount of services throughout the network. The interconnector could be used aswel as the Phoenix Park Tunnel acting like an M50 for train services thereby forming an irregular circular line around the city.There is a site which covers this philosophy in greater detail and here is the URL:"http://www.darganproject.com/index_files/Page322.htm". Here are a few Ideas: (Galway-Heuston-Interconnector-Belfast), (Galway-Heuston-Phoenix Park Tunnel-Connolly-Rosslare), (Rosslare-Connolly-Belfast), (Cork-Heuston-Interconnector-Sligo), (Cork-Heuston-Phoenix Park Tunnel-Connolly-Gorey). The possibilities are endless. |
Mark G - where would the bottleneck be to determine the maximum number of services, assuming enough rolling stock? Space at Docklands for instance, or the Kildare approaches to Heuston, or somewhere else?
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A lot has changed since 1999 a hell of a lot of extra trains running
The line south of Pearse is running at close to capacity, its really tight and lucky to see a single green signal on the way in from Dun Laoghaire on a bad morning. Level crossings restrict any increase. Terminating in Dun Laoghaire comes with a number of problems, there is only one terminal platform so you got to get in and get out before the next train and in doing so cross oncoming trains. Bray is a mess so don't even think about there When the third platform in Grand Canal Dock is re-signaled the current northbound line will become a terminus solving a lot of problems currently at Pearse Currently isn't any room on the approach to Heuston for extra trains until the 4 track happens The simplest solution is to do a simple piece of trackwork in Docklands and running Kildare local trains to Docklands is consistent with the post interconnector service and it was promised. There is free capacity to run that could manage 3 to 4 trains an hour. Those trains would start from the new turnback platfrom in Hazelhatch Pearse Kildare after 9pm and all day Sunday is realistic and a reasonable approach |
paddyb wrote
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MarkG is right that if We can't get extra maynooth or drogheda services into connolly it will be impossible to get Kildare services in. whatwork would have to be done to get kildare services to docklands. would it cost much. It is a pity though about Dun Laoghaire platform 3. this would have been great for comuter services. out of interest does the same signal sequence that runs connolly-pearse run all the way to bray making it easy to run more Maynooth and Drogheda services to dun laoghaire |
Agree you could get carried away with all sorts of combinations once the PPT is open and you have to look at route capacity and rolling stock limitations.
Those things aside looking at having a service north to south that runs via the 3 biggest cities on the island ie Belfast - Dublin - Cork would surely benefit people. I know a good number of students from Munster study north of border and have to make the trip via bus which can take 7 hours+. What time would such a direct train service take? 4 hours with stops at say Newry, Dundalk, Drogheda, Connolly, Drumcondra, Heuston, Portloais, Thurles, Cork. Would there be interest in twice daily service? |
What we can do is put a number on the number of people who fly Cork-Belfast, which was 3,380 in March. That's on a route that's twice daily on weekdays and once daily on weekends, so it works out at around 68 people each way per day on weekdays.
That's not a great number and when you consider that the plane will be a lot faster and that the price will be similar, you wouldn't attract too many over. Obviously, the advantage the train has is that it can also pick up in Mallow, Limerick Junction, Thurles or Port Laoise, none of which have an air service to Belfast. Similarly, it would offer a service from Cork to Drogheda and Dundalk. If you choose to look at it as two separate services from Cork to Dublin and Dublin to Belfast, where through passengers have the option of staying on the train if they want it makes more sense. Anyone who has caught the train from Amsterdam to Paris will have realised that 90% of passengers get off the train in Brussels to be replaced by a similar number of new faces. However, those people who want to travel through still get the choice. You would probably get a similar thing in Dublin, but if it helps to fill the train, great. |
Gary,there is one major problem in that journey suggestion.If the train is travelling southbound,then to get to Drumcondra would mean reversing northbound.I know that you mentioned Connolly.However, the journey would be quite a messy one.If you were to travel south to get to Cork from Newry then the interconnector would be you best bet.However,if you were to travel from Bray or Gorey to Cork/Galway than using the Phoenix Park Tunnel would be your best bet.Therefore,there is an "en route",tidy and more seamless approach to the journey.It is the reversing part that would make the journey messy.The interconnector would be one half of the circle while the Phoenix Park Tunnel is the other half.
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reversing 's not a problem with railcars, enterprise or CDE's though.
Happens all day every day. |
Yea didn't think the reversing would be too much an issue. As for comparing to flight passenger numbers on the route, not sure if this if the best comparsion. As you say the train makes several stops on route and you have the great alternatives of the car and bus that people would also take.
What I was thinking was you replace a Cork - Heuston and a Connolly to Belfast service with one direct service via PPT. Know that means re-giging timetables etc but am sure its still manageable. Am sure in this car dependent era there's a number of people avoid the public transport option because of the hassle of 2 trains, a tram, some waiting around in Dublin and all that while carrying luggage around. I know you could get carried away with all sorts of crazy permutations of routes (like cork - sligo) via ppt but here we're talking about linking the island's three major cities and the large towns on route. And it follows the same route of the road that is no doubt taken by many via car. |
It would be even being optimistic 4:40 Cork Belfast. and the return fare is 87.90, air competition will under cut that easily and the time is not attractive, competitive compared to road given the M50 at the moment and totally hammers the bus. When Belfast Dublin goes hourly it will be 5:50 ish end to end with changes still 2 hours faster than the bus. Of course this was tried in the mid 1950's and disappeared quickly afterwards.
You would need a common fleet of trains as well. The question is how reliable it could be having to operate through Heuston and Connolly, that means a spare train on standby at all times. This is rather fanciful given both Dublin Belfast and Dublin Cork are a shambles in reliability terms. The issue here is it would cause total confusion for someone going to say Thurles Cork Mallow etc, do I go to Connolly or Heuston where will I get a seat, you can get round that by calling in Heuston P10 which would in turn inconvenience anyone in Heuston Dublin Cork carries about 8 times more than Dublin Belfast. I'd see the demand as suburb to suburb so Midleton Cork Heuston Balbriggan will be do able very quickly post T21 |
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The other brother sometimes flies Cork-Dublin hires a car and drives to Dundalk, Craigavon, etc. Quote:
* Possibly Newry only when Northbound and Dundalk only when Southbound, feeding of the local services. Quote:
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One way Cork-Belfast could be done is like this:
PPT reopened. Cork-Dublin trains rerouted to Connolly. Dublin-Belfast trains rescheduled to meet with Cork trains in the other direction, i.e. Dublin-Belfast train scheduled to depart 5 minutes after the arrival of an inbound Cork train, and vice-versa. This not only simplifies things for Cork-Belfast passengers, but also opens the way for wider travel patterns like Mallow-Dundalk, Limerick-Newry etc. This could be followed up with some new platforms at Heuston to allow PPT trains to stop at Heuston and two sets of travelators (sorry if this sounds too Metrobestish) One at Connolly carring passengers down to Spencer Dock (Interconnector) station, and another wherever Park Tunnel routed trains can be stopped, to the Heuston Interconnector station. |
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If the travelator worked for Heuston be a good idea, not sure about docklands though, there's a fair distance from Connolly to Docklands and as the crow flies it via housing estates. Maybe a walkway alongside the track out of docklands and then up towards the back of connolly might work. |
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Would think there is a market for it especially considering all the towns in between and amount of routes it would open up Drogheda - Portloais, Dundalk - Thurles. A train journey on one of these routes now would put anyone off using rail, 2 trains 1 tram and a whole lot of stress. Having said that Bus Eireann have never ventured now this route of a single route so maybe its not that viable. |
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I don't see why Cork-Belfast wouldn't work.
The service wouldn't only be for Cork to Belfast passengers, for example people travelling Kildare -Drogheda or Dundalk-Limerick can avail of the service as well as the Cork-Dublin and Dublin Belfast passengers who will also use it. Most Long Distance trains I use (outside Ireland) carry very few passengers from Terminus to Terminus but still provide a valuable service with High usage as there is a high turnover of passengers travelling shorter legs. While were at it what about a night train Cork-Dublin-Belfast and vice-versa during months with no R's:D |
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