What needs to happen to facilitate Kildare-Grand Canal Dock services?
 

Big picture:
* Has the revised track at GCD been done?
* Where are we with the city-centre signalling system?
* A fare matrix needs to be compiled and ticket machines programmed.
* What rolling stock?
* Passenger information systems need re-doing.

Little picture:
* Do all stations from Heuston to Kildare have validators?
* Can the ticket machines at those stations sell / to-up Leap Cards?
* Route maps need re-doing.

Top two (track and resignalling works) are in progress due for completion later in the summer - latest stage was completed over June Bank Holiday.

Fare matrix is already there - the existing one will just have to be integrated into the ticket machines - full suburban destinations added on both sides (Connolly and Heuston).

Rolling stock - ICRs cascaded by re-introduction of full Mark IV fleet and return of ICR from Belfast route and some minor rejigging.

PIS - No new stations so it *should* work, but given the issues in the past who knows?

The four stations to Hazelhatch are all fully LEAP compatible given they already are within the Short Hop zone.

LEAP PAYG won't be used beyond Hazelhatch so it's not so big an issue.

Route maps would, one would hope, be in the planning stage.

There is an intercity fare matrix, the suburban matrix does not allow for single/return Hazelhatch Grand Canal Dock

Not to out knowledge. Current system insist that that at trip that covers the Connolly-Heuston gap is two trips.

It's likely that there will be some programming involved.

But it could and should be. :)

Fair point on the fares matrix.

The onboard PIS should just involve uploading the new train IDs on each ICR - something that happens whenever a new timetable is introduced.

Station PIS will be interesting.

I don't see the short hop zone being enlarged anytime soon, nor have there been any suggestions of increasing LEAP PAYG outside of it on Irish Rail.

Stations beyond Hazelhatch do not have validators or barriers active when the stations are closed. Also Sallins and Newbridge do have barriers on the upside entrances.
All stations beyond the 'hatch are firmly in the much more expensive point-to-point territory and I don't see IE giving up on that revenue soon.

Perhaps, but (a) they no longer control fares and (b) while the discount for using Leap is substantial, the number of passengers should grow. The problem is someone getting on a commuter train in Grand Canal Dock not unreasonably expecting to be able to tag-off at the other end, seeing as they can use Leap on Bus Éireann commuter services.

On BE you interact with the driver for either single or zonal ticket. Zonal would work fine too on IE since you wouldn't need to tag-off but single fares would be a problem.
Also, since one could board a Kildare train at GCD, all Leap cards would have to have a higher minimum credit than the €5 for the short-hop zone.

All a bit negative but extending Leap pay-as-you-go beyond the short hop zone without driver interaction as on BE means system wide changes to min credit and, of course, bigger penalties if you forget to tag-off. Or you would need a different Leap card with higher credit limit.

How do passengers going to stations beyond Balbriggan boarding commuter trains at Grand Canal Dock cope so?

My taxsaver leap card has a Drogheda-Lansdowne Road point-to-point ticket loaded on it. I can tag of or off stations in that range without getting charged from my Leap card balance. I can also use other routes where Leap card is accepted and those fares get deducted from the balance.

However, pay as you go cards cannot be used beyond Balbriggan, only pre-paid monthly or yearly tickets.

James

I know that!

I was making the point that people are actually able to understand that pay-as-you-go only goes as far as the Short Hop zone boundary.

Colm didn't seem to think that they could!

The thing is, the maximum fare is already in excess of the deduction made when you tag-on.I'm not so sure of this. As I understand it, validators were fitted in Drogheda from the start to allow for people who inadvertently do this.

Given that nobody actually reads anything any more due to being continuously bombarded with small print, it is quite likely that a lot of Leap users don't understand that it only works within short hop.

Three years after signing up most people will have forgotten the limits the first time they try to use a leap card to get to Kilcock and find out they can't tag off.

Yeah, I don't know what happens in that case, and would be curious to find out.

James

Here's a question?

What happens when a LEAP card with a Point-to-Point ticket and e-purse is presented at Pearse?

How does the system know that you are using the P2P (to Drogheda or Kildare) or want to take a DART to Bray or a commuter to Leixlip?
Does it depend in the tag-off point bearing in mind that many station soutside the Short-hop zone do have validator at all times?

or is this a case where separate LEAP cards are needed?

If you've tagged on inside the P2P zone, and tag off outside, it knows where you tagged on and will deduct the correct fare. My P2P is Drogheda to Lansdowne Rd. I'm gone Pearse to Dun Laoghaire and it worked fine.

What I haven't tried yet is combining a P2P journey with a PAYG journey, such as Drogheda to Dun Laoghaire. I could see this causing problems as the journey could easily be over 90 minutes.

James

But what happens if you don't tag-off? Some stations do not have active validators at all times - e.g Sallins only has validators for a few hours in the morning.

Pretty sure the system has no way of know you've left your P2P zone, and won't charge you. Certainly there have been times I haven't tagged off within Drogheda-Lansdowne Road and nothing has happened.

When you say validators "only has validators for a few hours", unless Sallins does something very different to other stations, the validators are available all the time, just with the doors open. You should always tag on when using a P2P ticket, otherwise your ticket won't show up on the RPU checkers. However, as far as I can tell, not tagging off incurs no penalty.

James

This is the flaw in the leap system

There isn't a tag on/off machine at every station, so no way to allow journeys beyond the SHZ on cash

This is the flaw in the leap system

There isn't a tag on/off machine at every station, so no way to allow journeys beyond the SHZ on cash

Given the changes in commuting patterns over the the last 10 to 15 years, surely there is an argument for increasing the zones out to Portlaoise / Longford / Dundalk. Didn't there used to be medium, large and giant hops years ago?

It is getting really quite seriously stupid to have to pay for a complete extra Dublin bus or Luas pass if your journey can't be completed on the heavy rail system. How this is justifiable is beyond me and it is a big reason for people making unnecessary car commutes.

It is the same argument as for the concert specials - we don't need proper fare integration (LEAP is not fare integration) because nobody uses multi-mode outside the Short Hop zone. AS an example, the Longford commuter service could be massively improved at zero cost to the taxpayer by simply allowing passholders free access to Bus Eireann expressway busses yet this is impossible because this is a "commercial" service.

While you'd have grounds for an argument with regard to a
combined Rail/BE PSO ticket option, expecting it to be free is a bit much.

As for Expressway what possible grounds could you have for expecting free travel on an unsubsidised commercial operation?

That's like expecting as a rail passenger free travel to/from Dundalk on Matthews Coaches.

There were indeed and the zonal map was published in the national Bus Éireann timetable book.

In terms of rail the outer limit of the Giant Hop (zone) was Mullingar with Maynooth at the start of the Short Hop (out of interest the corresponding Giant Hop outermost points on the bus corridors in that general area were Castlepollard, Kilbeggan and Virginia).

On the Northern Line Balbriggan, Gormanston, Drogheda and Dundalk were the outer stations of the Short, Medium, Long and Giant Hops respectively.

On the Kildare/Cork line Newbridge was in Long Hop with Kildare marking the outer Long Hop boundary. Carlow, Portlaoise & Tullamore were the outermost Giant Hop stations.

On the Rosslare Line Kilcoole, Wicklow and Gorey were the outer stations of the Short, Long and Giant Hops respectively.

Talking of Kilcoole it (not Greystones) is the true outpost of the Short Hop and it is disappointing that there is no validator there despite a Leap Card fare being advertised as available on the IÉ site.

What year will this be sorted out by? It's hardly an unreasonable ask.

Kildare has validators operation when the station is staffed. Many evenings, it is not staffed and the validators are behind closed doors, as they are at Sallins and Newbridge. As well, one of gatse is often left open and people just walk through without tag-on. This always happens when the staff are working with a freight train.
Unlike SHZ stations, there are no non-gate validators at Sallins/Newbridge/Kildare so tagging off is not available at all times.

I'm not talking about using cash (epurse) outside the SHZ. What I'm asking is, you tag on at Pearse, go to Bray but you have a P2P to Drogheda. When you tag off at Bray, are you then charged the cash fare from the epurse? And more importantly, if you tag on at Pearse, travel to Drogheda, don't tag-off, are you charged a cash fare do does it assume since you have a P2P that it is what's used?

Perhaps adding P2P to Leap wasn't such a wise move?

As of this morning, we are go for Kildare - GCD.

Track and signalling is complete.

The two remaining unknowns
1. Fares
2. Platform CIS systems, will be the first time for a scheduled service that crosses from the mainline-suburban CTC with CIS on both sides

Driver training may still be ongoing also.

If you go to Bray from Pearse and tag on and off it will use the epurse.

If you get on at Pearse and don't tag off it'll assume you're using the point to point ticket.

Believe Connolly-GCD but it won't take long to clear them.

All we need now is a timetable...

Suppose you get tag on at Bray, change at GCD and don't tag off at your p2p station?

Heuston works not scheduled to finish until 5 November, hard to see anything before that and at that they should wait until 11 December to introduce a new schedule and bring the mess of producing a timetable whenever you feel like to an end.

People lived without PPT for years a few more weeks won't do any harm.

Kilocharlie do you plan to use the service, looking at an 60-65 minutes Kildare-GCD based on a test 40 minute schedule put into JP from Adamtwon-GCD with a 40 minute time. That is if it goes to Kildare.

Heuston side works have no impact as full service to Hazelhatch is possible on all days of work, should in theory be full to Newbridge.

October was the commitment

Driver training was held up until the final track layout in Grand Canal Dock, Heuston Connolly is already covered as a normal route for anyone who has entered the driving grade in the last decade

Perhaps freeing up stock could be problematic at times, Mark IV back on Cork not going help a lot.

Then you will be charged the maximum short hop zone fare.

You would have to tag off at Pearse.

It's your responsibility to have a valid ticket.

Yes if Kildare is served at least at peak hours. But I'd need to know early Nov for Annual Taxsaver renewal. No good if it terminates at Newbridge.

While this discussion is somewhat academic for most, I suspect that a court might take the view that a valid leap card with adequate credit and a valid point to point ticket is indeed a valid ticket. Surely the system should simply take the maximum leap fare or more intelligently the fare to the point where the point to point ticket becomes valid.

It s not always the customer's fault if a system is poorly designed and easily confused. I have both a leap card and a separarate Irish Rail smart card and frankly wouldn't trust the current setup to properly distinguish between the two and would never put value on the Irish Rail smart card even if it allowed me !

Yes I have more or less the same problem. I work on Wood Quay, and commute to and from Hazelhatch, I also use the feeder bus to / from Celbridge. Trains serving Connolly / Grand Canal Dock are no use to me. I would like to see a provisional timetable published before I renew my Annual Taxsaver Rail - this date is about mid October in my workplace. Otherwise I shall have to travel by Dublin Bus. To be honest I have been travelling to my workplace since 1997 by train as I prefer that mode of transport - I also enjoy the walk to my office to / from Heuston each day.

Most successful businesses adopt a mantra of "The customer is always right". If the customer is making mistakes due to over-complex systems, the systems should be simplified. It is absurd to have a system that requires that the passenger get off the train to validate their ticket in Pearse.

Leap is just a ludicrously complicated mess in terms of managing tickets. It is crazy that you need to be able to keep up to six active tickets on your card. The whole model needs to be scrapped and replaced with a proper zonal system.

If I get the 16:50 from Bray to Drogheda, how would I tag off at Pearse? Is the system not smart enough to recognise when I tag off at Drogheda and charge me only for the part my P2P ticket doesn't cover?

James

Well I was just pointing out what the customer *should* do to be charged the correct fare.