Does Waterford-Limerick have passenger potential?
 

Hello,

I am wondering if the Waterford to Limerick railway could see a higher patronage if changes were made on it, such as making the service more frequent.

I have read an article about the line on the Irish Times.
It was about Carrick-On-Suir railway station.
This is part of the article that makes me think that this line could carry more passengers:


Does anyone know of other changes which could be made in the line?
I am aware the speed is very slow, but would that be feasible to improve?

Tens of millions have been spent on this line on new track, bridges, fencing, level crossing and vegetation control.

Zero effort has been made to leverage any benefit in terms of more frequent or more relevant services. The existing timetable serves primarily those travelling to/from Dublin and somewhat accidentally shoppers heading into Waterford for five hours or so shopping.

Every excuse under the sun is used to avoid catering for special events be it Spraoi, Winterval or Sporting. Irish Rail regard the line as a nuisance and treat it accordingly.

Ironically this is one of the few lines in the country where the railway could easily compete on journey time with other modes.

I agree. I was thinking the same thing when I looked at the journey time by road according to google maps.
What is the most effective thing that could be done to improve journey times so the line would be competitive with other modes of transport?

They did run Winterval specials maybe 3 years ago, not sure how loading were but they were well advertised so if they failed to attract enough people then it's hard to justify it.

Surly it's the NTA who need to fund extra services, then again they should be ensuring the current schedules are operated fully but reliability has been poor this year due to crew shortage but it has improved lately.

Has this idea ever been suggested?

Tipperary County Council strongly oppose the closure of this line, and they also strongly support upgrading the N24 Waterford to Limerick road to motorway status.

If the motorway is built, plenty of infrastructure such as cuttings and embankments will have to be built for it, and the Waterford to Limerick railway could be rebuilt on this infrastructure as well, and it could return to the original alignment briefly for the four sections where it goes through towns.

Building the motorway infrastructure slightly wider to allow a railway as well would be of minimal additional expense, and the straight level alignment with no level crossings would allow for a very reasonable speed of trains.

The original alignment would then be largely open to use as a cycle track.

Sorry but this proposal is to say the least totally unrealistic. For one thing motorways are built with gradients which are much more severe than railways, and they are often quite curved by railway standards.

It Tipperary CO Council want a motorway to replace the N24, then this would kill off the railway for sure. I suppose the CO Council would lobby for both railway and motorway given that taxpayers elsewhere would largely be the payers.

A serious upgrade of the line would cost a lot less than any motorway proposal, and could result in genuinely competitive journey times, but that would be totally counter to NTA and Dept of Transport thinking.

The line has been substantially upgraded over the last 10 to 15 years and is now in a far better state than it was when heavy freight traffic and faster passenger trains were operating. It is frankly scandalous that so little effort has been made to capitalise on investments already made. The current situation is a case study in stupidity and paucity of intelligent policy.

Where I can think that this has been done (e.g. along the A4/A10 in Amsterdam), it's generally been to allow realignment of line in suburban areas. The trains that serve those lines don't go too fast.

The Paris-Brussels TGV line does parallel the A1 motorway for a decent distance, but if you look on a map, it's not just built in the motorway margin. It follows a much straighter line and the motorway often drifts away by as much as 300m.

If we ever considered this in Ireland, using it to rebuild an existing line doesn't seem the way to go. Maybe it could work if the M20 was ever built from Limerick to Charleville, as it would be a commuter line and cut off the Limerick Junction corner on the way to Cork, but that's really the only instance where I could imagine it working.

That sounds like something that would work quite well.
It would link Cork, Limerick and Galway directly by rail.
The plans for the M20 are all over the news at the moment.
Do you think the infrastructure of the M20 would allow a reasonable speed by train?

It's more that you're only looking at 30km, so even if speeds of 100km/h could be acheived, you could get Cork-Limerick below the hour mark.

However, if the Dublin-Cork mainline does ever get to 200km/h, it should be able to get close to that via Limerick Junction (and match it if there was a bit of investment into Limerick Junction to Limerick), so it's questionable as to the benefit there.

It could also allow for commuter services along a Charleville-Croom-Patrickswell-Raheen-Limerick route, but realistically, you may as well run an all stops service from Cork to Limerick and vice versa as the two cities commuter belts come within touching distance of each other (Charleville is arguably in both).

I got the idea from an article on engineersjournal.ie, which was comparing Ireland's transport system with Denmark's. http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2016/...he-right-track

Do you think this would work for the Western Rail Corridor between Tuam and Collooney (if it returns) and the M17, considering there are a lot of gradients, sharp turns and level crossings on the line's original alignment?

Does the track now allow a better speed than what the trains are travelling at now?

From a layman’s perspective and user of the line now and again (not in my home area) I would say a definite yes but what level of an increase I’m not sure. There are certainly issues such as accommodation/ farmers’ crossings and sighting distances but if I’m not mistaken some of these are unused/closed and given the upgrading of the permanent way in very recent years at least 60mph should be attainable on sections.

I recall sections of Rosslare-Wellingtonbridge-Waterford had a 70mph line speed some years ago but a trawl through some old timetables doesn’t reveal faster than 1 hour 32 minutes for Waterford - Limerick Junction albeit with loco hauled stock (serving the remaining four intermediate stations as per today). Therefore given the superior characteristics of the ICRs the journey nowadays is at least 10-15 minutes slower relatively speaking.

Of course this line has potential but it requires a suite of measures such as:

* Through running to Limerick (Or beyond i.e. Ennis/Galway) to give a true regional Intercity service. Linkage with Rosslare bus at Waterford.

* Sunday evening service each way for returning student/weekender/tourism traffic. Enhanced Summer service.

* Targeted commuter service Clonmel – Waterford with complementing measures e.g. connecting town/city buses at Clonmel/Waterford, more car parking at Clonmel, Taxsaver promotion.

* Promotion & a community rail partnership – possibly an opportunity for the NTA to showcase best practice and co-ordinate stakeholders.

* Regular freight flow.

* It also doesn’t help to have some subsidised bus services operating at very similar times to trains such as on route 355 (Cahir-Waterford) and 387 (Wexford-Rosslare Harbour).

Is it definite that this line's potential would be completely gone if the N24 is replaced by a motorway?

I am unsure of this because while road competition does of course limit and sometimes destroy potential for railway lines, the N24 traffic volumes are comparable to the N4 traffic volumes according to Transport Infrastructure Ireland's Traffic Count Data website.

The Sligo line is doing all right, despite the fact that the N4 for the most part varies between dual carriageway and a standard of single carriageway where it is still safe to drive at over 100km/h.

The main reason the Sligo line is doing all right is because the N4 is at this stage woefully inadequate beyond Mullingar. At busy times you will inevitably get stuck in a stream of traffic travelling below 80kph for most of the way between Mullingar and Longford. The only dual carriageway is a short stretch around Dromod and a 30 minute wait to get through Carrick is not unusual at busy times.

It is looking very much like an N4 upgrade is on the cards which will inevitably attract a proper private express bus service. This will inevitably mean the end of the train service beyond Longford unless 15 to 30 minutes can be knocked off the journey time which is basically unchanged since the start of the 20th century. The existing road journey is just over 200km, which will be easily achievable by bus in 2 and half hours by motorway.

So the same logic applies to other routes - unless there is investment in rail, it is unlikely that routes will survive the building of parallel motorways. Even with investment the Irish Rail's high cost-base means that low-cost private bus operators are likely to run rings around them on pricing.

One of the easiest potential benefits to the line is sorting out Limerick Junction. At some future date, I believe we are supposed to be seeing a situation where both a Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Cork train could stop there at the same time. If that happens, it becomes a lot easier to provide good connections at that end. Ideally, there would be another platform that would allow a Waterford-Limerick (or vice versa) service in at the same time without any silly time-consuming reversing manoeuvres, but maybe that can come if there is an increase in patronage after the connections are sorted out.

In relation to the first two paragraphs, point taken.

Is there a chance, then, that the line could survive the building of a parallel motorway if the service is improved?

The most relevant thing is probably that a parallel motorway isn't going to be built any time soon. Limerick Waterford is well down the priority list, with completion of radial routes out of Dublin and Cork-Limerick above it in priority. What all that means is that it is at least 10 years until a motorway is in place and it's probably going to be later than that.

That means that Irish Rail have plenty of time to consider a response.

Can the railway survive a parallel motorway. We can look at how other routes have done.

Those that have done OK fall into two categories
- Ones where the service is fast (Cork/Limerick-Dublin)
- Ones where the bulk of traffic is commuters heading into a city centre(Dundalk-Dublin, Wicklow-Dublin, Kildare/Carlow-Dublin, Midleton-Cork or Athenry-Galway)

The failures have been where the line is slow and the commuter traffic isn't there.

So it's pretty clear what Irish Rail need to do - increase line speed and build commuter traffic into Waterford and Limerick. The problem is that takes money and the projects need to compete with other parts of the network, where the money may see a greater return and where it isn't potentially dead money because other lines aren't in danger of closing.

Is that a situation where some of the Limerick to Limerick Junction trains would continue to Waterford?

Should a platform perpendicular to the existing ones be built for these trains?

There can be all sorts of fantasy solutions at Limerick Junction. The ideal is something that looks like Amsterdam Sloterdijk, with lines being grade-separated and platforms that can incorporate trains to every one of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford at the same time, with all being a through train from one of the others.

However, that has to be offset by some reality. Every solution has a price that it needs to justify and then there will also be the thought of the future of the line. That means that priority will go to Dublin-Cork improvements, then to Limerick improvements, and then finally Waterford improvements.

I would say, let the Cork-Dublin platforms be built.

Then persuade Irish Rail that Waterford will definitely stay open and needs investment.

Then it may be possible to consider a short platform, linked to the Cork-bound platform, alongside the line to Waterford.

Others on here will know better the operational problems with stopping a train in a location where it is about to cross another track, but I would suspect that it would have to be stopped at the platform before any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork services have pulled in. The Limerick bay doesn't suffer from this and it could be possible to put in a terminating platforn off the Waterford line, but that would preclude through running without manoeuvres.

Is there a way to use trains from Waterford as Limerick Junction to Limerick shuttle services without limiting journey options that are there now?

A train running from Limerick to Waterford connecting with a train going from Cork to Dublin, for example, would not let passengers coming from the Cork direction to travel to Limerick.

Would it work in this case to have another shuttle train that would go back to Limerick from Limerick Junction when the Waterford-bound one would arrive to keep the possibility of (in this case) a Cork to Limerick service?

There's no particular reason why you couldn't split a train and it's common enough practice in other European countries. Platform 3 should be long enough to support it as well.

So, what you could have is a Limerick-Limerick Junction train that goes to Limerick Junction, with half of it going back to Limerick and the other half going to Waterford.

The Limerick train would need to leave first (giving chance for any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork trains to leave the main line), with the Waterford train leaving later.

There are a few disadvantages
- I believe the 22000s are the only suitable rolling stock, which would mean 6 cars leaving Limerick, with 3 going back and 3 onto Waterford. This seems over-capacity
- It complicates driver rostering
- It can be confusing for passengers, especially in a country where we are not used to this set up
- There would necessarily be a 10 minute or so delay between the train from Limerick and the one to Waterford departing. This isn't much better than the 09:05 service achieves today.
- Any late running of a service on the mainline would necessarily delay the train to Waterford. It's not just a matter of missed connections, but also because it couldn't cross the tracks

None of those would preclude a service. They just need to be taken into account when considering its viability.

Does adding a second through platform to Limerick Junction to allow a Cork to Dublin train and a Dublin to Cork train to stop there at the same time bring benefits to the Dublin - Cork service?

The biggest benefit is that it allows for much simpler operation of the shuttle to Limerick. It's worth remembering that a fairly significant proportion of users of the service are actually traveling between Limerick and Dublin. The demand between Limerick and Dublin is much greater than the demand between Limerick and Cork, so by not having the trains arrive at the same time, it can either lead to fairly empty workings or paying drivers to sit around waiting to operate a service.

There are some direct benefits for Cork-Dublin, most notably that a service that is delayed will not cause problems for platform access for a non-delayed train adding in the other direction. In theory, you could probably do things like driver swaps to help with efficiency of rostering, but that has the drawback of needing one train to arrive before the other can leave.

Would it be feasible to have two platforms on the Waterford - Limerick line at Limerick Junction, and have Waterford - Limerick trains pass Limerick - Waterford trains there?

There's not enough space for that arrangement in the current complex, but the land alongside it is largely agricultural and shouldn't cost too much to acquire.

You would have to double-track the line through Limerick Junction at least and then construct two platforms and link them to the main platforms.

There is again this problem of stopping trains before crossing the Dublin-Cork mainline, so you would probably have to stop Limerick trains north of the junction and Waterford trains south of it. The Limerick platform would be west of the line and Waterford platform east of it.

Then multiple bridges are required for platform access.

It gets complicated.

Do the Dublin - Cork trains have to stop before crossing the Waterford to Limerick line?

For heaven's sake, this discussion is a bit ridiculous, considering that Irish Rail cannot even manage to solve some very simple constraints on congested lines (like upgrading the through road platform at Enfield to take passengers).

A platform on the down main line at Lim Jcn may make life easier as far as conflicts between up and down Dublin-Cork trains are concerned, but connections from down trains will no longer be cross platform but would involve climbing/descending stairs/lifts to an overbridge/underpass across three lines. What does that do for connecting times, which at present can be very slick.

This thread is meant to be about the Limerick-Junction to Waterford line, and what is really required is some investment to lower the journey time from 1h40m to about 1h20m. This is mainly a question of better signalling and visibility at crossings.

How much will improving visibility at crossings and better signalling cost?

They had planning for it (could be expired) but it would be for the NTA to approve.

Is it a common problem that Dublin - Cork trains are delayed by trains going in the opposite direction due to there being only one through platform at Limerick Junction?

Think I could try it?

Others on here have more expertise in signalling knowledge and the like but if I'm not mistaken the "flat crossing" is signal protected on both sides. The norm is for mainline trains to cross it at low speed.

I would thoroughly recommend taking a trip (if you haven't already) to see the line and set up.

You could upgrade?! "Ah go on" as Mrs. Doyle would say!!!

On a serious note it appears that a "block" in the booking engine is omitted i.e. if Carrick to Limerick Jct involves more than one train it is not via the direct South Tipp line so a higher fare needs to reply.

A couple of days ago I took the 16:25 train from Waterford to Cahir.

The train left Waterford with 40 people on board, and it had 26 on board when I got off.
Would anyone know if this is the amount of people who would typically be using the service?

40 is a good number, by any chance were some of those part of a Rail Tours Ireland group? (likely they were)

Yes, there were people on the train in a Rail Tours Ireland group, but I would say there weren't any more than ten people part of the group.

How many people would usually be on the train?

Does anyone know how much time stopping at a station typically adds to journey times (for the 2800 class for example)

Stopping at intermediate stations on LJn-Waterford should add 2 or 3 minutes per stop (asuming it spends a minute or less actually stopped). No real difference if it's ICRs (as opposed to 2800s). Trains would in many cases have to slow for staff exchange and the low line speed means less time loss.

Also in response to an earlier post, mainline nonstop trains can pass Limerick Junction at 60mph, ususally only 2 or 3 trains on weekdays and maybe more on Sundays.

Would Cahir and Tipperary have a lot of people commuting into Limerick for work?