The hired mob are a problem, they are exceptional intimidating and the legal authority they have is virtually zero, of course no id badges

There have been assaults on ticket checkers and in some cases staff refuse to work without security on site

Those of using Pearse, Tara and Connolly are subject and have been subject for decades to a check every day, I've experience same in stations in the UK and I met the RATP revenue team on Paris once, they hunt in packs of 4

[quote their CEO]Our Colleagues

We know how important it is that you receive a satisfactory service from our staff at all times.

So we expect our colleagues to:

be polite and helpful
consider your safety and comfort
wear their appropriate uniform
wear an identification badge
[/quote]
so if there's no identification badge, you could be fairly sure that they are not irish rail staff ;)
like if they are not polite and helpful; obviously not irish rail staff !

Demand to see their licence which if they are legal they must have [ although from what I can see everyone is saying if the cops come around "I've applied" ]

Then they should have their acknowledgement letter on them.

A touchy subject, but I believe there's little love lost between the Airport Police and certain elements of the GardaÃ* (who are of the opinion that they have no right to be called police). That's one reason why I think a transport force would be better off integrated with the GardaÃ* (perhaps subject to safeguards like preventing too many officers being dragged off transport duties to do other things).

Sorry, totally off topic, but aren't airport police armed??

But back on topic... I still think the best way to stop fare evasion is through increased on board inspections, not the entry/exit validation route that IE seem hellbent on persuing. Open platforms with on board inspections is the most customer friendly way of doing it. I was in Utrecht the other day, Sunday morning, 10am, jumped on a tram into town, 2 stops into the journey, about 6 ticket checkers got on, one at each door... checked everyone who atempted to get off at that stop, and then worked their way through the carriage. Very effective!

Making people queue to get on and off the platform is a joke.. I see it every morning at Clontarf road, 2 DARTs arrive at the same time and you end up with people queuing all the way up the stairs and over the footbridge!

+1

The security staff are agents of Irish Rail not staff which grants them the same authority as staff but nicely side steps the customer charter

Note private security should be registered and carry visible id

Ah, but he who's in charge but who's name we can't write says "Colleagues".
This would include subcontractors in my opinion.

That sounds like a turf war to be honest. Where were the detectives when the Bank of Ireland in Dublin Airport was robbed? All back at their home stations clocking off before the next shift clocked on (at the time most of the garda contingent in the airport was seconded from other stations). :rolleyes:
I'm not sure if I mind whether thay are part fo the garda or not, but at the very least a transport police would need railway safety training and equipment.
No, the airport police, while having many of the powers of a garda are much more resticted in other areas - they can arrest, but they can't detain, that is the prisoner must be handed over to the garda immediately. There job is focused on the port / airport they deal with. They have familiarity with the location and tasks that an ordinary garda wouldn't, but need to delegate more sophisticated tasks.
On board checks are very hard to do at peak times. A balance has to be struck.

Notify IE we'll be asking all security staff for their PSA IDs :p


Cue panic and mindless buck-passing. Worth a letter to management at least.

On board checks are not hard to do if IR are coping with passenger numbers. There is a problem on the Kildare line, train times are 'hit and miss', some trains are half empty while others are overloaded coming into Heuston in the mornings.

Really? How do you get round even a moderately loaded four car train in the morning peak in the 5 minutes between Hazelhatch and Adamstown, for instance? Next time a checker comes round after a stop (eg Sallins or Newbridge on the 1750 ex Heuston), and asks for tickets for people who have boarded - watch the heads go down. Been there, done that. It is impossible without asking to see all tickets - and then people get upset by the disturbance (see other threads on this board in the past).

On train checks are necessary, but by their nature will never catch all. Barrier checks - manned - are the only way to do it and make absolutely sure that every ticket is checked. And if some passengers don't like it, and assault staff doing their jobs, can you blame staff for wanting some serious backup?

LC

With all due respect, validation machines are the only answer. Passengers who don't have a tickets just show an old ticket when disembarking at Heuston. Shame on you not purchasing a valid ticket. I have been travelling on that line for the last 10 years, and I have yet to see anyone assulting a ticket checker, most people are on their way to work at that hour of the morning ( these manned checks are only carried out on morning services). Why can't we have such machines at Heuston, it saves all this hassle.
PS By the way I am an annual ticket holder!!

I too am an annual ticket holder - not sure why you thought it was relevant. Unless you wear a badge saying "I have an annual ticket", how do the staff know? I also hope you are not insinuating that I travel ticketless.

Example as to why validation machines don't catch all. They have been installed at London terminals for some time, but not at rural stations some way out due to cost, especially if they are unstaffed due to access issues in the event of failure or emergency. A blitz was undertaken on a series of evening peak trains out of Victoria. Significant numbers of passengers - enough for the penalty fares to more than pay the cost of the operation - had tickets to Clapham Junction - the first stop. While no system will eliminate this, unless you barrier all stations automatic validation does not work. I ahve also seen passenger vault over such gates, again at several different times of day.

As regards staff assault, I can assure you it does happen, and not just at night. There will also always be those who try to push past to avoid paying. It is also not just skangers - I have seen a well dressed businessman type push a member of staff out of the way before now - and in the UK, the Head of Rail at the Department of Transport was charged with assaulting a staff member who tried to check his ticket. If you were on the front line, and had been on the recieving end, I can assure you that you would want support. I've been there, some years ago when things were not as bad as now, but former colleagues I am still in touch with have some horrifying stories.

In the event of barriers being installed everywhere, I would love to see the reaction of the "sprinters" at Newbridge and Portarlington to the delays at having to show their ticket at the home station - you know, those who start wlking to the front of the train about 15 minutes before they get off so they can be the first over the bridge....

LC

It did sound like you were saying you've travelled ticket-less. Misunderstanding I think

Misunderstanding indeed. I have been involved in preventing fraudulent travel (on rail and bus services, front line and higher level) among many roles over in 35 years in the transport industry overseas before semi retirement and a totally unrelated job over here. "Been there, done that" referred to trying to catch people dodging, not being one of them.

LC

The ticket checks in Pearse Station are useless. The sheer volumes of passengers make it impossible to check everyone. You see new people working there who try to look at everyone's. After several months they just nod at anything you hold up to them.

The only people I have ever seen caught for fare evasion in Pearse are those who realise they have forgotten a weekly ticket and voluntarily hand themselves over to the ticket inspectors.

And the ticket barriers currently favoured by IÉ are very poor. It is possible for at least 3 to go through in the time it takes the barriers to open and close.

As per police at the airport, there is a difference between "Airport Police" and "airport police". There are armed airport police in Dublin who deal with crime and support customs etc. The Airport Police seem to man the little portakabin at the bottom of the ramp as well as putting out traffic cones, clamping cars etc.

It is obviously some time since you have travelled by train in UK or Europe, where from what I can see nobody evades train fare as there are checkers on board. IR (management and some staff) are very confrontational as regards passengers, they do need to change their attitude, it's very much a them and us situation, they are lagging behind the rest of Europe by 15 years. I have yet to see thugs (Stasi) at any station in UK or Europe when disembanking from a train.
PS I mentioned that I was an annual ticket holder, just to put you at ease that I was not a fare evader.

Manual ticket checks are a waste of everyone's time. A couple of years ago, as a test, I went through Tara St every evening, queued up with everyone else for the one guy checking tickets, and showed a ticket form the previous day or week. Was never pulled up on it.

Actually that's what is happening when they have ticket checkers at Heuston lately. Maybe then should recruit ticket checkers with good eyesight.:)

I've travelled enough in the UK and exit barriers are popping up everywhere

Anyone who has been out the back entrance of Birmingham New Street will know all about the deck chairs and the small army of inspectors

The level of on train inspection is significantly greater than here, but fare evasion is always a problem

Even on a fully gated system like the Paris Metro I've been stopped within a station for my ticket

There is a much greater respect for authority and rules in Europe which means inspections are rarer but when they happen they are seriously heavy and random

In the 6 months after the exit gates went live in Connolly ticket revenue surged by 15%, the scale of evasion is obviously a problem

Two weeks ago actually. Nottingham station. Barrier staff and security staff. Three people being "encouraged" to pay for tickets as they were without as I exited the station. Part of problem as outlined in earlier post - open / unstaffed stations and insufficient time to check between all stations, or passengers not offeering to pay as conductor passes.

Same UK visit - train halted for 25 minutes at Chesterfield while police were called to remove a fare evader who had verbally abused, and threatened physical assault of, on-train conductor. It does happen.

Sorry to disabuse you....

LC

God only knows the places you visit, I have never ever had nor seen any hassle through out Europe or UK, only at Heuston Station in the mornings ie. 500 people herded through 1 exit by Irish Rail staff supported by these thugs. A better solution are validation machines, no one can pick a row with one!!!

I'm pretty certain that France (for example) has a much higher rate of fare evasion than Ireland. This is especially true on commuter services such as the metro and the RER where I would put fare evasion at anything between 33% and 50%. (In certain stations I got funny looks when I was buying a ticket). On SNCF trains it's not as high but it's still a big problem. On TGV's, you're 99.9% likely to be checked (I have traveled a few times on TGV without being checked). On regional trains, it's hit and miss. There is usually a controller on board, but they don't always check tickets. Again, I traveled quite a few times on regional trains without being checked.

You get the same "them and us" attitude over there as well. I did encounter some incredibly rude SNCF staff while in France, equally as rude as the IR equivalent. And while they might not have STS over there, they do have the amry patrolling alot of the major stations in France these days and I would find them more intimidating than STS.

In the six months after the exit gates went live and revenue surged 15% and all passengers with valid tickets were inconvenienced particularly with irish rail's very poor annual ticket mag stripe system, How much did Irish rail reward their faithful customers by a price reduction? I must have missed that part of the equation.

All stick, no carrot

+1

I quoted examples, and they are by no means isolated. Nottingham is a large city in the East Midlands of the UK; the Chesterfield incident was on an Arriva service from the north east to BIrmingham and beyond. True, you cannot "pick a row" with machines, but you can vault over the gates (seen Fenchurch St, London, in 2007). There also has to be a member of staff there in case tickets don't read correctly, or someone has luggage, or a pushchair, or is in a wheelchair. That person can be abused / threatened, and will often just let such people through rather than be attacked.

In the checks I have come across at Heuston, the main crush is caused by people rushing to be first off (the same as the rush for the car park at Newbrisge and Portarlington in the evening). I have strolled at a normal walking pace from the back of the train, and been delayed less than 30 seconds. That to me is acceptable. I also am gald that people are being forced to pay. There are many who try it on, and board the train without a ticket in the hope of getting away with it.

LC

On an annual ticket, you are already travelling at a substantial discount - that's the deal. If you are on taxsaver as well, especially on high rate, then the price is very low. Approx €1100 for Portarlington to Heuston, assuming 47 five day weeks, works out at around 6c/mile - and at peak times, with free travel at weekends and Bank Holidays thrown in.

LC

I don't think anyone on the board has a problem with ticket inspections, or is advocating people get away with not buying a ticket. The issue is the way IE have gone about it. Forcing large amounts of people through 1 or 2 ticket machines, or forcing people in/out of a station through a single access point is just not customer friendly. How many stations do you have to cross to the other side of the tracks to buy a ticket/enter the platform? How many stations can you only get out of by going through an exit on the opposite side of the station than you want to be?

I don't buy the argument that it's not possible to do on board ticket checks even on full trains. Sure at crush load it's an issue, but these trains are becoming less and less, and this is IEs fault, NOT the customers.

I think in Ireland we're still stuck with the mentality that we're lucky to have crowded & hot trains, rude staff, decrepit stations and to be treated like animals, rather than have nothing at all.

The rest of us like to be at work on time, people rush as they are not sure if there will be a bus or luas available. I do resent being herded into a confined area when these checks are taking place. One woman recently fell over and broke her wrist in the crush.

So do I - so I get a train that gives me time to do so (0640 or 0706, rather than 0730 which would just about get me in on time most days, but tight). Both bus and LUAS leave frequently from outside Heuston - not an issue. I suspect cycling might be more reliable and quicker, but I haven't tried that.

LC

[quote=al2637;33122]

I don't buy the argument that it's not possible to do on board ticket checks even on full trains. Sure at crush load it's an issue, but these trains are becoming less and less, and this is IEs fault, NOT the customers.

[quote]


OK. Train calls at Hazelhatch bound for Heuston. Say 150 get on, maybe 50 without tickets. Journey time to Heuston about 15-20 minutes (I know its scheduled for more, but that includes time for engineering works and time recovery). Season ticket check 10 seconds per person (say 70 of them). Ticket stamping 15 seconds per person (say 30 of them). 50 ticket issues at about 90 seconds each - and that's if they have their money ready, know what they want and don't require change. That's 94 minutes. Even with the worst of Heuston line delays, that is impractical. That is why people don't buy tickets - they know they have a good chance of getting away with it. That is why the barrier checks are necessary.

To forestall the next comment, put more checkers on - what would they do the rest of the day? And how much would it cost?

LC

I beg your pardon, the VAST majority of passengers at Hazelhatch have tickets, Patricia (the station master) sees to that. Please stop making sweeping statements. Now really, you are talking through your hat !!

Exactly, more ticket checkers, like it is done in the rest of the world. Also, it should take less than 5 seconds to actually check each persons ticket... just a quick check of the route/date.

The rest of the day they CONTINUE to check tickets on all services. As I said, over here (Nederlands), you will ahve 1-2 ticket checkers getting on at every door to the carriage - 3-4 doors. They will also usually be accompanied by a police officer/transport police (armed!!). I've seen this at peak time in the morning then the metro is full, and at 10am on a Sunday morning... ticket checkers should be working the full hours that the system is operational.

The result is that most people know they are likley to get caught if they don't have a ticket.

As for cost, why not just take all the pepole that IR have standing around checking tickets and make them mobile! Put them on the trains instead of at a gate! Or increase the level of fine to make it 1. cover some of the cost, 2. further deter people from trying it!

To play devils advocate, would you support the closing off of Luas platforms so that everyone was hearded in/out through a single entrance?

luas ticket checking is high profile and done very often it seems to work well.

I don't get this bit.

That's right its a pity IR would not take a leaf out of their book instead of demeaning passengers the way they normally do. No need for the Stasi on the Luas.

LUAS is much lower capacity - hence fewer to check, and has a lot more windows which make ticket inspectors a lot more visible

From my own experience the Luas guys never get on trans they can walk around.

Their new tactic is to pretend to board the tram and then ask the people on the platform for a ticket.