Bord Snip Transport cuts

[namloc]

The Bord Snip Nua has identified some cuts in the transport budget. €55m from 'operational efficencies among CIE companies' Report (http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/Volume%201.pdf) Any thoughts on what this would entail??

They suggest lightly-ued rail lines should be closed and replaced by bus and they also recommend ceasing further development of the WRC.

Any thoughts?

[drumcondra commuter]

Any thoughts?

The McCarthy report recommends these and suggests these savings, wait for the slow and quiet backing away from anything too controversial in the next two weeks. You can almost hear the gears of lobbying grinding.....

[namloc]

I see that the rail lines ear marked to be axed are Limerick Junction-Rosslare, Limerick-Ballybrophy & Manulla-Ballina. As you say there'll be alot of people keeping their heads down and distancing themselves from these proposed cuts.

[ThomasJ]

from the report

The Department of Transport's 2009 current expenditure allocation for Public Transport is €342m,
which is primarily spent to support non-commercial bus and rail services. The Special Group is
recommending total savings of €68m a year for this Programme.
The Exchequer current allocation to CIÉ for the provision of non-commercial public transport
services (PSO payments) has already been reduced in 2009 by €10m (3%). This reduction is on the
back of a number of years where the allocation was held level (a reduction in real terms) and also is
in addition to the ending of a fuel excise rebate scheme which was worth about €20m annually to
CIE. The impact of this can be seen already in the recently announced programme of cost-cutting
measures by Dublin Bus and the review of operations, services and routes by Bus Eireann. The
Group is of the view that this cost-cutting programme can be more extensive and recommends that
over the next three years the company focuses on reducing its annual operation costs of €1bn to
allow it to pass on €55m in full year savings to the Exchequer by means of reduced PSO payments.

Table 17.6 Transport - Measures identified for Programme C
Annual savings
C.1 Operational efficiencies among CIÉ companies €55.0m
C.2 Cease funding the Rural Transport Scheme €11.0m
C.3 Discontinue the Green Schools Initiative €2.0m
Total Current Savings €68.0m

C.1 Operational efficiencies among CIE companies
The Group is concerned by the overall upward trend in the level of public service payments per
passenger journey although it notes that Irish Rail has achieved a small reduction (Irish Rail still
has the highest PSO payment per passenger journey of the three CIÉ transport companies). This
indicates poor service delivery. Accordingly, the Group recommends a scheme of targeted
reductions to services across all three CIÉ companies, focused in the first instance on off-peak, low
patronage services.
As part of this undertaking, the Department of Transport and CIÉ should jointly review the
application of PSO payments to low patronage transport routes and explore how such payments can
be best targeted/applied to provide the most economical service levels that meet customer needs and
demand patterns. For example, lightly used rail lines should be closed and replacement bus services
provided. It is more than likely that more regular and reliable bus services could be provided on
such corridors at less cost to the Exchequer.
Among the most lightly used rail lines that should be
examined in this light include:
- Limerick Junction to Rosslare
- Limerick to Ballybrophy;
- Manulla Junction to Ballina.

In addition, the Group recommends that there should be no further development of the Western Rail
Corridor.
Overall, the Group targets a significant reduction of costs at CIÉ which would lead to savings of
€55m in the PSO payment.

[PLUMB LOCO]

The McCarthy report recommends these and suggests these savings, wait for the slow and quiet backing away from anything too controversial in the next two weeks. You can almost hear the gears of lobbying grinding.....

It's called democracy! If you want to see all the lightly used railways closed why don't you form a lobby group yourself and start lobbying - there are plenty here and on Boards.ie that will support you. :D

[Traincustomer]

Hopefully the people who want these lines closed realise that they could in effect be biting the hand that feeds them, maybe not immediately but in decades to come. If too much in this country becomes dictated by pure economics and the social need provision/aspect in transport, education, health etc...starts going totally out the window then the majority of us are going to significantly feel the pain in future years. Savings are indeed needed but they need to be balanced and thought out against a long-term perspective. It's easy to say close this close that - like Garda Stations for instance. But what will the effects be in future years - greatly increased crime will affect us all.

[on the move]

Close garda stations, at a time where crime is more rampant than ever before. Only in Ireland would such things be allowed to happen. :D

How many murders are there in the state every week?

I take it the rest of the country will be forced into hibernation for the next few lines, with rail and bus routes closed.

The government's solution? The Lisbon Treaty. :rolleyes: Apparantly all our ills will be cured, if we bend over for them next October. Despite yesterday's measures that are designed to last at least 5 years.

[PLUMB LOCO]

Close garda stations, at a time where crime is more rampant than ever before. Only in Ireland would such things be allowed to happen. :D

How many murders are there in the state every week?

I take it the rest of the country will be forced into hibernation for the next few lines, with rail and bus routes closed.

The government's solution? The Lisbon Treaty. :rolleyes: Apparantly all our ills will be cured, if we bend over for them next October. Despite yesterday's measures that are designed to last at least 5 years.

No - worse still - only in Ireland would such a stupid suggestion be made! What would you expect from a bunch of economists - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing. :mad:

[Mark Hennessy]

I'd love to see in detail what these "efficiencies" in CIE are?

Pay cuts for all management would be one efficiency I can think of.

Say 25% cuts for management straight away, with the potential to make back 15% in bonuses if they meet targets for carrying passengers.

It's much easier for the top brass just to cut services and justify their positions by "making tough decisions", that is how this country works.

[Colm Moore]

Close garda stations, at a time where crime is more rampant than ever before. Only in Ireland would such things be allowed to happen. :D Do we want gardaÃ* manning rural stations where nothing happens or actually out patrolling?

[on the move]

We live in a violent society, the Gardai need all the resources both out on the beat and in the office, to make the country as safe as it can be.

Closing garda stations is an invitation for every criminal in the affected area to run amok. Making savings doesn't compensate social disorder.

[dowlingm]

Has the Taoiseach-in-waiting taken a position on cuts to North Mayo rail yet? :rolleyes:

[PLUMB LOCO]

Has the Taoiseach-in-waiting taken a position on cuts to North Mayo rail yet? :rolleyes:


Ha,ha,ha - didn't know it April Fools Day? :D

[Colm Moore]

Has the Taoiseach-in-waiting taken a position on cuts to North Mayo rail yet? :rolleyes:

Huh? Wasn't that closed as part of T21? http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-7.pdf

Note how phase 2 is now Athenry-Tuam, not Claremorris-Collooney. http://www.transport21.ie/Maps/Transport_21_Maps/Western_Rail_Corridor.html

[comcor]

In the absence of a road bridge, how do they propose to replace the Rosslare-Waterford line with a bus replacement?

[Thomas Ralph]

It's only one train each way a day with minimal ridership; anyone going from Waterford to Wexford or Rosslare can go via New Ross.

[PLUMB LOCO]

It's only one train each way a day with minimal ridership; anyone going from Waterford to Wexford or Rosslare can go via New Ross.


Obviously written by somebody who has not travelled on the line! The train is used in the main by school/college students and workers along the South Wexford line (Wellington Bridge, Campile etc) travelling to and from Waterford and a replacement bus service would not serve their needs adequately. The line must be retained as an important link to Rosslare Harbour and will come back into its own when foot passengers inevitably return to the ferries.

[comcor]

You'd think that with things so much cheaper at the moment Irish Rail might be advertising day returns from Waterford to Fishguard to take advantage.

Then you realise they can't even offer you a timetable providing a day return to Rosslare!


The thing is, I can remember a time when the Cork-Cobh line was written off. It was only kept open because freight to the NET plant at Marino Point was using it anyway, so a few passenger services couldn't be that much harm. 25 years later with a proper timetable (and admittedly some good work from Cork County Council in terms of zoning land along it) and it's a success that happily runs even though NET is long closed.

Has anyone ever looked at the line in South Wexford and tried to see what timetable would suit it? Tried to work with Wexford Co Co to get extra land zoned for housing near the various stations? Without any will, is it any wonder it's up for closure. And the will has to come from irish Rail as much as it has to come from the local authorities and local politicians.

With any of the rail lines slated for closure, they should first be offered to private interests (whether commercial companies, community co-operatives, even the RPSI for use as a heritage line, while maintaining some service to the communities on it) to see if they can make a go of them before just being shut down.

[Mark Hennessy]

You'd think that with things so much cheaper at the moment Irish Rail might be advertising day returns from Waterford to Fishguard to take advantage.

Then you realise they can't even offer you a timetable providing a day return to Rosslare!


The thing is, I can remember a time when the Cork-Cobh line was written off. It was only kept open because freight to the NET plant at Marino Point was using it anyway, so a few passenger services couldn't be that much harm. 25 years later with a proper timetable (and admittedly some good work from Cork County Council in terms of zoning land along it) and it's a success that happily runs even though NET is long closed.

Has anyone ever looked at the line in South Wexford and tried to see what timetable would suit it? Tried to work with Wexford Co Co to get extra land zoned for housing near the various stations? Without any will, is it any wonder it's up for closure. And the will has to come from irish Rail as much as it has to come from the local authorities and local politicians.

With any of the rail lines slated for closure, they should first be offered to private interests (whether commercial companies, community co-operatives, even the RPSI for use as a heritage line, while maintaining some service to the communities on it) to see if they can make a go of them before just being shut down.

The biggest problem (currently) is that Waterford is suffering a worse jobs crisis than any of the other major urban areas so attracting fresh commuters in the current environment will be tough.

As this line is used regularly by a small but loyal amount and the fact there is a massive times saving whilst using this line over the road route, perhaps IE could trial that hybrid road / rail bus on this line?

Right now fresh ideas are needed, the line with the current passenger numbers in its current guise is not going to last in an environment where teachers are being sacked and social welfare is being cut etc.

That's the political reality in my opinion.

[ThomasJ]

3 rail lines:-

Connolly Gorey/Enniscorthy/Wexford
Heuston Rosslare (via waterford)
Gorey Rosslare - linking the 2 lines

This enables a link that side for Carlow,waterford and other heuston passengers to get to Bray/Gorey/Wexford/rosslare without the need to travel via Dublin and vice versa

[PLUMB LOCO]

The biggest problem (currently) is that Waterford is suffering a worse jobs crisis than any of the other major urban areas so attracting fresh commuters in the current environment will be tough.

As this line is used regularly by a small but loyal amount and the fact there is a massive times saving whilst using this line over the road route, perhaps IE could trial that hybrid road / rail bus on this line?

Right now fresh ideas are needed, the line with the current passenger numbers in its current guise is not going to last in an environment where teachers are being sacked and social welfare is being cut etc.

That's the political reality in my opinion.

Agreed. However, the railbus suggestion would reduce the service to even more of a joke than it already is and would see off the remaining passengers. IE have been trying to close the route since the late 1960s and need to be removed as its operators ASAP. They have no interest in doing anything with it and don't even market the services that currently operate on the route. I am one of the solitary regular users of the 06.25 Enniscorthy/Waterford service (change at Rosslare Strand) - when it operates - and I am damn sure few others know that it operates! Theoretically somebody living in Enniscorthy/Wexford could use the service to commute to and from work in Waterford - if it was marketed to them.

[comcor]

Right now fresh ideas are needed, the line with the current passenger numbers in its current guise is not going to last in an environment where teachers are being sacked and social welfare is being cut etc.

But are numbers ever going to rise when there's only one train a day?

And with the line's future constantly in doubt, who is going to commit to regularly commuting on it?

Vicious circle.

Now, if they could knock 30 minutes off the journey time and send even 1 morning train Waterford-Rosslare-Dublin, it could make a big difference. The longer time would be compensated for by the convenience of ending up in Connolly rather than Heuston and it would mean 2 trains a day on the line...

[Mark Hennessy]

But are numbers ever going to rise when there's only one train a day?

And with the line's future constantly in doubt, who is going to commit to regularly commuting on it?

Vicious circle.



I know, the arguments are always the same.

Ultimately, Irish Rail management are the problem.

They get no pay cuts for carrying less passengers, if they close these lines, they still get the same pay and get presumeably less hassle. There is no incentive here to innovate.

My own view would be to allow these lines pass into private operation (alongside BE services) as some sort of regional revamp of transport in Munster / S.E Ireland.

However, again in my own opinion, only Clonmel to Dublin and Wexford - Waterford services should be focused on to keep these lines alive.

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a vicious circle alright. Mark points out the real problem, no accountability in the service. We have evidence that Irish Rail are publishing misleading performance results for various routes

What is a radical change not only in the timetable but also the structure from which the service is provided

[comcor]

I agree totally that they should be allowed pass to private or community operation rather than just closed. The lines must be given a chance to survive. My main concern with private operation is that the business would just be too small to attract significant players.

There's an interesting old Observer article about a community started (although I believe Deutsche Bahn have an involvement now) project to restore an old rail service here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/12/train-travel-virgin-wrexham-shropshire).

[Mark Gleeson]

I'm not so sure if its too small a pitch for a 3rd party, if they took over all services Galway-Limerick-Nenagh and Limerick-Waterford-Rosslare and added in a commuter service to Killkenny there is potential there

What ever happens a radical timetable is needed, but that won't be enough to over come decades of public perception of the service. We have the guts of a timetable but its going to take a huge leap of faith to implement it, its radical very radical

There are only 2 lines at true risk, Ballybrophy Birdhill (there is freight on the Birdhill Limerick section) and Waterford Rosslare.

There is still limited freight traffic on the Waterford Limerick Junction section and significant freight traffic on the Ballina and Westport line which significantly reduces the losses

[comcor]

I remember seeing before that Waterford-Rosslare was the only section of line in the country that didn't belong to Irish Rail.

Would that make it harder or easier to close and harder or easier to open to third party operators?

[PLUMB LOCO]

The Waterford/Rosslare Strand line belongs to the Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Company which is jointly owned by CIE/IE and Stena Line (!) is an historical anachronism that has been useful in that it has prevented CIE from closing the railway in the past. Apparently to close the line would need an act of Parliament in Westminster and something similar in the Dail. Although the line is to all intents and purposes closed. It was chosen as the setting for the surreal movie "Six Shooter" made in 2005 and starring Brendan Gleeson which featured a train of Cravens, tea trolley, exploding cows and a massive shoot-out with the Gardai at Wellington Bridge. I suspect that even the film's producers failed to realise that the line is like something out of the Twilight Zone - worthy of a movie in its own right!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Shooter_(film)

That said the line is a complete disaster and has been for years - the two letters here being typical of hundreds that have appeared in recent years. The morons in the Dept.of Transport and their lackeys in CIE choose to ignore these complaints as the line doesn't really exist - it's not owned by CIE and its not owned by the GWR/BR/Stena Line..... It reminds me of the Thurles/Clonmel line which belonged to the Southern Railway of Ireland Company for whom no directors, shareholders or employees could be found when the branch was absorbed by the Great Southern & Western Railway / Great Southern Railways - lest they be held responsible for the companies debts!! Remember it's not that long ago when the CIE operated Great Southern Hotels chain used to trade while insolvent and the directors of CIE used to refuse to sign-off on the annual a/cs less they be held responsible for the losses...that reminds me of another story

1045

1046

[Standing Passenger]

On the subject of Bord Snip and saving money can anyone give me a plausible explanation as to why it costs about 4 times as much ie. €12m per mile to reopen a closed railway in Cork to a 60mph standard with 3 new stations at the same time as it costs €3m per mile to reopen a closed railway in Galway to a 60mph standard with 3 new stations and a multiple of automatiic crossings etc.

Cobh Junction to Middleton 6.5 miles cost €75m
Athenry to Ennis 36.0 miles cost €106m

Its an incredible difference.

I am delighted for both projects but find it hard to understand the scale of difference in costs.

I know Cork went to so-called New Works ie outside tender while Galway was undertaken internally. On the face of it it would therefore appear that the internal team should be expanded to undertake new works.

From a taxpayers perspective a detailed explanation is warranted. Of course the anomaly was'nt spotted by McCarthy. His only observation was to halt the Galway job - the one representing such comparative value for money.

An answer in the style that would be acceptable to Michael O'Leary would be welcome.

[PLUMB LOCO]

The extra cost was probably accounted for by the inordinate amount of pallisade fencing used on the Cobh Junction/Midleton line. I can't wait until Tuesday to hear reports of how many are using the new service.

[Colm Moore]

As I said. There isn't a station every 4 km on the WRC. :) Nor is much of the track doubled, nor does it involve partially upgrading all the cobh branch stations, etc.

Comparative value for money needs to look at cost per passenger, not cost per km of track - sure look at the North Australian line - built for a few hundred million. It was cheap per km simply because it was across the outback, where they could avoid obstacles instead of tackling them. Problem is, thers only about 2 trains per week.

[dermo88]

Thats because its the freight that makes the money on the North Australian line, and they are over a mile long, whereas the passenger trains in Australia, outside the major urban centres are for tourists only, and the majority fly.

Comparing outback Australia with Ireland is not valid.

[Colm Moore]

Comparing outback Australia with Ireland is not valid.Neither is comparing a short suburban line with a medium distance regional one.

[ThomasJ]

From Western People
http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story/?trs=eyeykfqlsn

Ballina fights to keep its precious rail link
By: Orla Hearns

BALLINA Chamber of Commerce has invited one of the town’s biggest industries, Ballina Beverages, to assist it in making a submission on the recommendations of An Bord Snip Nua.

Chamber CEO, Sandra Cribben, told the Western People that the planned sub-committee will address some of the main items of local concern arising from An Bord Snip Nua’s report, which includes the proposal to close the Manulla to Ballina rail line.

“It seems the report has classified the line as a light rail service but they have not taken account of the freight side,� Ms Cribben remarked.

She said that while there were a lot of difficulties generally with the An Bord Snip Nua proposals, the recommended closure of the Ballina-Manulla line would be among the top priorities that the proposed sub-committee plans to “fight strongly�.

A spokesperson for Ballina Beverages, which employs 349 people full-time plus another 100 contractors at its Ballina plant, said.

“Ballina Beverages can confirm that it uses the rail head at Ballina for receipt of ingredients and transport of finished goods. The closure of the rail head would be of concern to the company as this is the preferred method of transport.�


Ms Cribben said that the chamber was aware that cuts have to be made and that the majority of the An Bord Snip Nua report would have to be implemented.

“We still have to fight for what can be retained. The loss of the Ballina-Manulla line would be a serious blow – not only to industries like Ballina Beverages, but also for tourism in the area.�

Possible implications for the Department of Environment offices in Ballina as a result of An Bord Snip Nua’s stance on decentralisation is another item of concern for the chamber’s sub-committee.

“We would be anxious to hold on to those long-term, well-paid jobs which are important to the local economy,� Ms Cribben said.

Barry Kenny, Irish Rail, said Ballina was one of the most important rail freight centres in the country. The company would be making it clear in any discussions with the Department of Transport that the Ballina service is very viable and generates a commercial return for Irish Rail.

[Mark Gleeson]

No idea why Ballina made the list in the first place, passenger numbers are far from impressive mid week but there are serious numbers on weekends

Freight is profitable but is only paying its marginal costs, if you withdraw the passenger service the freight service would become unprofitable as it would have to pay full cost

[dowlingm]

one thing to remember in all this, and I see it in a lot of criticism of ABSN in areas other than transport "shure how would McCarthy et al know anything about XYZ, that's clearly nonsense, those cuts were already made..."

They mostly didn't do their own research. Essentially, they received two sets of data, one from the Department in question, and one from the part of DoFinance that monitors that Department. Between the two reports, they then came up with a proposal for each. If they are proposing cuts, it's because Transport or Finance proposed them, not that Colm McCarthy has become an authority on trains. This means ABSN needs watching as something a bureaucrat knows he could never get killed in the normal course of events he can get killed by ABSN and the national panic will see that it happens.

McCarthy and his fellow economists have an excellent blog going at irisheconomy.ie and anyone who is paying taxes in Ireland should keep a close eye on it - especially involving NAMA.

[ThomasJ]

From the Irish Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0819/1224252867938.html



Coca-Cola cargo restores port rail traffic
OLIVIA KELLY

IARNRÓD ÉIREANN freight container trains are to resume deliveries to Dublin Port from this morning following a six-year absence.

A twice-weekly service operated by Iarnród Éireann for International Warehousing and Transport Ltd (IWT) will run from Ballina, Co Mayo, to the port. Its main cargo will initially be containers of Coca-Cola concentrate from the Ballina production plant for export to Mexico, Australia, Japan, India and Turkey.

Trains of 18 carriages each carrying 40ft containers holding 35 tonnes of product will arrive at the port every Monday and Wednesday evening, taking up to 4,000 lorries off the road yearly. IWT said it intends to expand to a daily service within six months, servicing the western region.

The containers will operate on a round-trip basis, removing both laden and empty freight vehicles from the road network, IWT said: “This is a major development towards reducing carbon footprint and providing a statistically safer mode of transport. IWT believe that the service will save up to 5.5 million road kilometres every year and will reduce CO2 emissions by as much as 2,750 tonnes.�

While initially it will use just the Ballina-Dublin line, the reliability of the service and its environmental benefits mean it will have great potential, IWT said.

From tomorrow, trains will travel on the main line from Ballina to Heuston Station before switching to the tunnel under Phoenix Park. From there, they will run on the Maynooth line towards Connolly Station before branching off to Dublin Port.

A spokesman for the Dublin Port Company said despite the decrease in the use of rail for freight deliveries, it has maintained the rail network within the port.

About 500,000 tonnes of ore are already transported to the port from Tara Mines in Navan, Co Meath, but the new Ballina service will be the first commercial container freight service since the closure of the Cork to Dublin Port freight service six years ago.

Iarnród Éireann said the new service opened the door for other shipping companies to consider using rail to serve Dublin Port. “We are delighted to see this new service take to the rails, and to return to Dublin Port with container freight,� Stephen Aherne of Iarnród Éireann said.

While the McCarthy report recommended cuts to some regional rail freight lines, this would not affect the new service, as it operates on the Dublin-Ballina passenger line.

[Thomas Ralph]

And they've no problem using the Phoenix Park tunnel when it suits.

[Mark Gleeson]

Another service from Waterford to Dublin Port is also in the offing. The manual level crossing at Lavistown outside Killkenny went automatic yesterday so 24 hour operation moves closer.

Hopefully the continued growth in Ballina will result in some move to sort out the Athlone - Portarlington section which will benefit passengers as well

[ThomasJ]

Good to hear!

Hopefully, this puts away the suggestions of the mccarthy report of closing the ballina to manulla junction section!

[drumcondra commuter]

Hopefully, this puts away the suggestions of the mccarthy report of closing the ballina to manulla junction section!

Plus 1

[ThomasJ]

From Breaking News
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/port-rail-service-to-take-4000-trucks-off-roads-423191.html

A new freight rail service to Dublin Port is on track to take up to 4,000 trucks off the country’s roads, it was claimed today.

The operation, linking the west of the country with the capital, is the first rail connection to the harbour in six years which can transfer goods directly on to a ship.

Dublin Port hopes the twice-weekly train service to and from Ballina, Co Mayo, will open the door for shipping companies.

Seamus McLoughlin, head of operations, said the port is at the hub of the national road and rail network as well as having direct rail connections to all major train stations.

“Despite a significant fall in the amount of goods being transported by train in recent decades, Dublin Port Company remained committed to ensuring that we could continue to handle rail freight through the maintenance of our own rail network within the Port,� said Mr McLoughlin.

“This new service is also good news for the environment as removing 4,000 truck journeys from Ireland’s roads will result in a fall in Co2 emissions.�

Irish Warehouse Transport (IWT) will contract the train from Iarnród Éireann and sell container and tank space on the train to its customers directly.

Goods will also be transported back on return trips.

The first load of freight, 630 tonnes of Coca-Cola concentrate made by Ballina Beverages, travelled across the country throughout the day on an 18 carriage, 720 foot long train.

From Dublin Port it will be shipped to Mexico, India, Japan, Turkey and Australia.
Maintaining the rail network in the port estate has also ensured that 500,000 tonnes of lead and zinc concentrate from Tara Mines can be transported to Dublin Port by rail annually.

Elsewhere, two deliveries arrive from Europe’s largest zinc mine in Navan each day and the lead and zinc concentrate is shipped to Odda in Norway and Kokkola in Finland.

Dublin Port handles over two-thirds of containerised trade to and from Ireland and 50% of all the country’s imports and exports each year.

More than 1.3 million tourists, through the ferry companies and cruise vessels, also use the port.