View Full Version : The Cork Dublin Express Train has entered service
James Shields
22-05-2006, 11:47
Well, I took the Luas over to Heuston and hopped on to the 9:00 to Cork, where I met Mark and NavanJunction. I took lots of photos, making sure to wander up to the locomotive end and have a look around there (no points for those predicting an orange loco).
The interior was bright and airy, and very pleasent to walk around. The toilets seemed very like the disabled toilets on the 2900, with a big swoosh around door. The interior displays were all very elegant, with an LED map showing the routes (but as Mark pointed out, nothing north of Athlone), scrolling displays at the carriage ends telling us where we were going (very like the 2900) and individual LED lisplays over each seat saying "vacant", as the booking system was not working. There are also exterior displays next to the doors. The automated announcement told us where we were going in Irish and English and was very clear. However, there was a manual announcement that the doors were about to close, and that was almost inaudable.
The seats seemed very hard when you sat down first, but comfortable enough once you settled into them. It remains to be seen how they'd feel after a few hours. Mark had already measures, and there's a little less leg room and the tables are a few cms narrower. Mark grumbled that there was nowhere to plug in his laptop, though he could pick up a WiFi signal that seemed to be coming from the train.
We headed off, more or less on time, pretty uneventfully. Passing Inchicore, we saw another CDE set in a siding. Mark pointed out that the only CDE set that was positioned to make the run last week still had plastic wrapping on all the seats, so even if there hadn't been a strike it's unlikely it could have run.
Mark had notes on all the bumps from his recent Mk3 run. He was even able to point out where a section had been realigned in the last couple of weeks, so he didn't know how it would compare. It was impressive how he'd interrupt the conversation with, "now there should be a bit of a bump in about ten seconds." I think he was actually quietly impressed. The ride definitely wasn't quite as solid as a Mark 3, but it was nowhere near as bad as it could be (light years ahead of the Enterprise, though that's not saying much). According to Mark, we got up to about 90mph, and things still seemed quite comfortable, though there was a worrying vibration. The sould insulation seemed very good, as we passed a number of trains heading in the other direction, and there wasn't a sound to be heard.
Barry Kenny came over to chat with us, and was very polite, though I think he played the "I was away last week so I don't know anything" card a little too much. He acknowledged there were issues with the ride, and said they were working with CAF to fix them.
NavanJunction and I got off at Kildare, as Derek was getting on for the next leg of the journey. We took the slow trip back on a 2900, which was interesting from a comparison viewpoint as you could feel every bump we went over. We were musing about the prospects of sitting on one the whole way to Sligo, which doesn't seem like a pleasent experience.
I thought it was also interesting to see where the new Park West station is being built. It's quite a bit further out than the current Cherry Orchard station (by necessity because of where the Interconnector surfaces). I really think there will be a need for an underground station between Park West and Heuston. Although noone got on or off at Cherry Orchard, why would they when the train only goes to Heuston? But if they could get to Stephen's Green or change at Pearse, it would be a whole different story. There will be a fairly bug chunk of popluation caught between two stations, especially after Inchicore is redeveloped.
It's been an interesting morning. I'll post photos later.
Mark Gleeson
22-05-2006, 13:14
This morning Platform 11 took a trip on the 9am Dublin Cork, the new Cork Dublin Express train. I travelled to Thurles with a every changing number of companions, including a Meath on Track representative
All in all the train was quite impressive none of the horrors predicted came true, we had a perfectly clean train, someone had taken a powerhose to the underside.
It started out with the locomotive beltching out blueish smoke not a good sign
Down to business ride is not as good as a MK3 but equally its not poor the lateral ride in corners was excellent but it came unstuck at times in rough patches. All the spots a MK3 got caught out also caught out the CDE. At no time did speed exceed 90mph so its unfair since most MK3 journeys I make hit and sustain 100mph for miles. They have tweaked the ride and there are more tweaks to come. All in all the ride is most acceptable and is probably best described as the MK3 international Cu Na Mara style, good and you would be more than happy. We were positioned in the best seats in the house, mid coach on the third coach 4107, ride tends to get a little giddy towards the rear
The devil is in the details
Tables are 5 cm less in width than MK3 tables, but you get an extra 2 cm from seat back to table, legroom, seat width are broadly the same. The armrests lift up, yippe.
No power sockets for laptops, I mean come on this is 2006. I saw the mock up and it had them
Each coach comes with two tiny bins in the vestibule area, no good at all. We had to put up with two over eager contract cleaners picking up the rubbish
Each coach has an odometer which shows the distance in Km travelled the three coaches we checked (4106/4107/4108) were in excess of 27,200km the required distance for service is 10,000km
The overhead luggage rack is extremely large and has significantly more capacity that a MK3 one which was proven by a large booked group with loads of bags
Station stops where slick since the door release and lock was done from the locomotive so seconds are saved. That was till Thurles when the doors didn't release for about 30 seconds, I had two senior IE managers next to me and the time while Derek had another manager to watch the fun. Doors did release but still they got worried
The PIS was not perfect after each station it would display this is the xx:xx Dublin Heuston Cork, where xx:xx was the departing time from that last station, thus after leaving Kildare this is the 9:30 Dublin Heuston Cork which it ain't. Robo dude speaks Irish quite well actually
Each seat comes with an electronic seat reservation display, all showing seat vacant currently as the software is not stable
The interior is nice the Design Triangle in Derby did a good job, gone is the horrible direct strip lighting its now a nice modern soft lighting. Incidently the spot lights are high intensity LEDs.
Despite earlier reports, there aint no wifi onboard I'm afraid
The AC is very good but you do pick up a carbon smell (brake disks) after a heavy brake application
There is a electronic route map, a bit like the DART one but someone forgot about 400miles of track, so nothing north of Athlone, no Wesport/Ballina/Sligo etc
And finally the PA was rubbish. Auto robo dude PA is perfect, manual is horrible. Just before we left there was a garbled PA with the sound of big diesel engine in the back, typical IE. The train manager then made a PA after Portarlington announcing free tea and coffee to all pity you couldn't hear it as the volume was so low.
Further to lostcarpark's report, Barry Kenny whom I've never met (never had to) actually found me on the train, they must have my photo on the wall in Connolly.
Navan Junction
22-05-2006, 13:23
http://app3.websitetonight.com//projects/4/0/7/6/4076/uploads/Mark_4_Kildare_3.jpg
Leaving Kildare station
http://app3.websitetonight.com//projects/4/0/7/6/4076/uploads/Mark_4_Kildare_1.jpg
201 end
http://app3.websitetonight.com//projects/4/0/7/6/4076/uploads/Mark_4_Kildare_2.jpg
Mark Gleeson
22-05-2006, 13:42
Some some curious photos
Where did Westport/Ballina/Sligo/Belfast/Rosslare go ?? First person to explain why the map looks like this gets pint off me at the P11 AGM
http://www.platform11.org/images/CDE/wheredidthenetworkgo.jpg
Every seat is vacant
http://www.platform11.org/images/CDE/reservations.jpg
Ok its lame but a nice wide door, with non slip and a light to ensure you don't miss the step
http://www.platform11.org/images/CDE/doorstil.jpg
Last but not least the toliet, of course we found an out of order one. Be sure to push lock when you enter
http://www.platform11.org/images/CDE/bog.jpg
Doesn't it mean .
--- Green - route travelled
--- Yellow - route remaining to travel
The stations being called at being highlighted in red.
I'd assume if there were no PIS info signals from half way down onwards, that the system would just assume that that route still hadn't been travelled.
As for the route map, the train will never travel outside the Cork-Dublin line. It would just be confusing to have put the full network on. They have a limited space, much like a tube map it's schematic and for simple information purposes only. It does give you a good idea of where you're at. It's also a good indicator that these trains arn't going to be dragged all over the network. Like the Enterprise it's a dedicated service.
Did the automatic announcements work for all stations?
IE can NEVER manage to get their microphone levels right. They need to hire in some technical consultants and get advise on how to use microphones / PA systems. It's ridiculous as this system is brand new and clearly works if not operated and configured by the clueless. It's actually quite tricky to make sure that an audio system works properly so it's something best left to experts. Once configured, just DO NOT TOUCH any of the levels / volumes.
The PA from the 201 will undoubtedly sound noisy as there is a big diesel engine in the background. there's very little you can do about that other than get new locomotives with very heavily insulated cabs.
At no time did speed exceed 90mph so its unfair since most MK3 journeys I make hit and sustain 100mph for miles.
I would dispute that -- I've probably done 10 return trips to Cork in a Mk3 set this year and I didn't exceed 100mph once. The wonderbra padding in the current timetable means they don't need to.
On a petty note glad that the armrests come up -- given that most of these trains will be running nearly empty (the most I've ever counted in the same carriage as me on either the 0900 Dub-Cork or the 1530 Cork-Dub was 10 on a weekday) it'll give me more room to spread out!
Good news about the ride though, now that €millions have gone on shiny new kit for IE, all they have to sort out now is to tell staff how to use a PA and how to implement an online booking system.
2015??
Mark Gleeson
22-05-2006, 14:24
I tend to get fast non stop trains where 100mph actually happens, been to 103mph once or twice, vast bulk don't get above 90mph
Train was well loaded today, I'd say 275 on board, there was a booking which had taken a whole coach, add in every single person in IE who wasn't rostered and all the managers including Dr Lynch head of CIE and the seats filled up
Oh and in the tradition of Inchicore tools where downed and we got a wave from the assembled staff as we passed, truely sad but still its tradition
Kevin K Kelehan
22-05-2006, 14:27
I think its kind of quaint one wonders if such traditions will transfer to the new depot at Port Laoise?
Thomas J Stamp
22-05-2006, 14:30
............ the reason why those destinations are missing is the reason for the strike (but of course). IE have a specily trained monkey who rests behind that little map. When the train is heading to those destinations he changes the map by scrolling it upwards with a special little spanish windy thing. The problem is that the NBRU wanted one of their lads to go in there instead, resulting in a dispacement of little monkeys. As The Blessed Phil Flynn was not available to smear vaseline all over deco from The 'Core to get him into the small area behind the map it could not be operated.
So there.
Colm Donoghue
22-05-2006, 14:46
but this is Ireland. Everyone waves at trains as they pass.....
I wish I was being sarcastic or something but it's true.
(well in the country side anyway)
No power sockets for laptops, I mean come on this is 2006. I saw the mock up and it had them
I have a photo of you holding the socket infront of the mock (at least I had....).
I agree with Kevin, I think it is kind of cool that theh Inchacore staff wave the train off.
what about the dining car what was the setup on that like. Was it the same as the previous gammy crap or did it even have one?
Any service enhancements introduced on the new trains (complementary papers? telephones, baby changing facilities, vending machines, in seat entertainment like in planes etc ) I am thinking of business class here
any chance you have a pic of the full inside of a carriage?
most customers probably wont care about how shiny the trains are but rather the level of new or improved services available on the CDE's to make up for the independance of cars, the poor speed in comparison to flying and pathetic customer service
Its a pity to hear about the lack of wi-fi this would be a major enhancement (makes the journey seem faster), lack of bins, as well as no plugs for laptops . How many toilets per carriage?
Mark Gleeson
22-05-2006, 15:01
No in seat entertainment
One toliet per coach, all of which are fully accessible and have baby changing facilities
Each coach can carry a wheelchair and has space and a restraining strap, a wheelchair passenger joined at Thurles and the doors are all wide enough
Buffet is quite different, its normal 2+2 seating to a glass partition, then there is a curved shop area all in stainless steel. The passage way through the Buffet is extremely tight, that said its not required by passengers
I don't have a full coach photo, its not easy when you have IE managers crawling over the place and passengers don't like been photographed. The trolley blocked my trip to explore the train. I did find the odometer panel and the CCTV camera. I didn't get into the first class section but its the same colour as the standard class but with 2+1 seats and table lamps
I can honeslty say that anytime I board a Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork train it's invariably at or very close to full capacity.
At peak hours I think they could even do with running extra non-stop trains to allow some capacity to remain on the stopping trains. On the busy trains it's quite common to see people boarding from Limerick Junction, Thurles etc standing for the entire journey because the train was completely full when it left Heuston or Kent.
Sure there'll be a few trains in the middle of the day with fairly sparce numbers of passengers, but that route carries vast numbers of people.
You can't only serve the peaks though. Having an hourly service is nothing unusual in a European / UK context between cities the size of Dublin and Cork. In fact, it's even a little infrequent. You'd see half-hourly peak services on many equvilant routes.
Frequent, flexible and fast service is key to marketing the route. If you have stopping trains you add a considerable amount of time to the journey which makes it uncompeditive with driving / flying and people just won't use it.
Best thing that IE could do is improve the stopping services with regional intercity links feeding those in-between stations.
Mark Gleeson
22-05-2006, 15:16
Well the good news is I spoke to Steve Murphy during the trip and the capacity problem is known, there will be a number of CDE sets running as 9 coach consists (don't worry the software is designed for this) for the really busy trains.
I think the MK3 cascade with there 10-18 extra seats per coach will start to eat into the problem, well this day next year should be intercity railcars hmm I sense another mess coming soon
Mark Gleeson
22-05-2006, 15:33
Five Seven Live RTE Radio One 5:20-5:45pm tonight
Listen http://www.rte.ie/smiltest/radio_new.smil
Navan Junction
22-05-2006, 15:46
http://app3.websitetonight.com//projects/4/0/7/6/4076/uploads/join.jpg
http://www.platform11.org/images/CDE/doorstil.jpg
Do my eyes decieve me? Or is it merely the camera angle?
Or have IE finally learned that train floor heights should MATCH (or close enough) platform heights?
The pic posted by NJ1 makes the new sets look awful. The carriage is too flat compared to the 201. Shame really, from most angles it looks ok but that one looks bad.
Edit: Fixed typo as I am in a pedantic mood.
Mark Gleeson
22-05-2006, 15:59
Thats Ballybrophy Island platform, the angle might be a bit generous to it but it was a tight fit. Thurles was fine as well, intericty trains are fine sine there are steps I'm sure a 2900 at the same platform would be interesting.
Mark Gleeson
22-05-2006, 16:03
The builders yap about the coaches is here http://www.caf.net/ingles/productos/proyecto.php?cod=10&id=611&sec=desc&pais=21
James Shields
22-05-2006, 17:02
I know the reason why the map doesn't go above Athlone. But since it was Mark that told me, I think it would be unfair to try and claim the prize, so I'll leave it open for others.
I think it's achademic anyway. The Enterprise map only shows Dublin-Belfast and a couple of bits off it too. I could see the CDEs occasionally doing Dublin-Limerick, but not very likely to get frther afield.
Of course, IE have an option for a few extra sets, so that could all change.
Hopefully we'll see more sets in service in the short term, and Mk3s transferred to other routes.
I'm going to guess 2 reasons:
1: They don't expect to be using them anywhere else.
2: Not enough space on the display.
Oh and the underside of the locomotive looks horrible, esp the buffers. What were they thinking?
Navan Junction
22-05-2006, 20:51
All I have of the inside. I don't have permission of those in the photos so are photoshopped out.
http://app3.websitetonight.com//projects/4/0/7/6/4076/uploads/Mark_4_inside.jpg
http://app3.websitetonight.com//projects/4/0/7/6/4076/uploads/Mark_4_inside_2.jpg
Mark Gleeson
22-05-2006, 20:56
Which one is me though?
Free pint to who can indentify the platform outside
Barry Kenny managed to identify me despite the fact we never met and my indentity is as closely guarded a secret as the 98FM fugitive. I know who gave me away but still.
Derek Wheeler
22-05-2006, 21:44
Well, Mark, Ill be honest. If thats you in the second photo, you've got real problems and I could recommend some specialists.:D You're obviously in the first one. As for the platform outside the window......mine's a budwiser....SALLINS.
James Shields
23-05-2006, 06:31
A selection of photos...
http://static.flickr.com/47/151408505_f7e10ef635_m.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/45/151408532_3da140ddc6_m.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/52/151439188_d92a08e932_m.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/55/151449138_a146220ff0_m.jpg
Full collection here. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lostcarpark/sets/72057594142431493/)
Mark Gleeson
23-05-2006, 10:29
The second one is so incredibly screwed up
Maiden journey by new train?Olivia Kelly
The new Iarnród Éireann Mark 4 trains, the focus of unofficial industrial action that left thousands of commuters stranded last week, began operating yesterday.
The first of the new Spanish trains made its maiden journey from Heuston Station, Dublin, at 9am, arriving at Kent Station, Cork, at 11.50am.
Attempts by the company to introduce the trains last week lead to a two-day strike.
The trains are part of a €117 million upgrade of services on the Dublin-Cork line. They have the same capacity as the old trains, but will be run more frequently. Iarnród Éireann has promised an hourly service from Dublin to Cork by December.
A company spokesman said: "These trains meet all the modern standards of quality and comfort. The seats are more comfortable, there is improved access for the mobility impaired and the toilets are fully accessible."
© The Irish Times 2006
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2006/0523/478544309HM8NEWTRAINS.html
Phwoar! Trainspotters swoon as the new Iarnrod carriages 'boldly go' . . . eventually
WITH the Wildcat Express safely shunted to a discreet siding, it was smiles all round for the relieved worthies of Iarnrod Eireann as they boarded The Phil Flynn Flyer for its maiden outing.
It had all looked so different a week ago, when the non-appearance in Dublin of the nine o'clock train to Cork signalled a snap strike by train drivers, leaving stranded passengers fuming on the platform and sparking two days of chaos on the national railways.
A freshly rehabilitated Phil Flynn - out of commission since a spot of bother over wholly unsubstantiated links to the IRA and a miniature novelty gun - chugged in to spread his legendary troubleshooting balm over union and management. The former union boss-turned-businessman's negotiating skills did the trick, and Iarnrod Eireann's new inter-city trains were back on track.
Memories
Yesterday morning, once the 9am from Heuston rolled away on schedule, company officials relaxed. But not for long. Memories of the Eurostar London launch still haunt people in the railway world, when the first train for France stalled midway in the Channel Tunnel, with the queen stuck in her royal compartment and Prince Philip's shopping list for cheap beer and ciggies burning a hole in her handbag.
So, officially, yesterday's voyage commenced a few weeks of "in-service trials". No brass band played on the platform to mark the occasion. But there was complimentary tea and coffee for all the passengers.
Most of them weren't terribly excited at the prospect of being the first to travel on the Mark lV carriages. Long years spent enduring crowded trains and second-rate facilities tend to dull the sense of wonder.
Iarnrod says the new carriages will see Ireland reverse its standing as the country with the oldest intercity trains in Europe to becoming the one with the most modern fleet.
Sixty-seven of the carriages have already been acquired for €117m, and they are gradually coming into service. A second order for 150 more has been placed at a cost of €322m.
This turnaround, God and Phil Flynn willing, will happen in a couple of years.
But will the trains go any faster? Not quite. It's a case of new carriages, same locomotives.
Barry Kenny from Iarnrod Eireann explains we're never going to get a French TGV or Japanese bullet train-type service here. We don't have the same sort of distance to cover, nor do we have the population density.
However, once all the new stock is in commission, there will be more trains on the network, leading to increased numbers of departures, which mean all the fiddly little stops along the way that slow a journey can be shared out across the timetable, leading to faster arrival times.
By December, a train will leave from Dublin for Cork on the hour, every hour, while the return leg will depart every hour on the half hour.
Naturally, there were trainspotters on board yesterday. Despite the rail company's attempts to play everything down, this was a big event for the trainspotting community.
Apparently, the younger, hipper manifestation of the breed like to refer to themselves as "locosexuals". They inhabit chat boards and websites. Locosexuals are likely to have well-thumbed copies of network timetables from around the world under their mattresses.
They also like to look at pictures of trains, but only when they're not taking pictures of trains.
But back to the Mark lV carriages, which are similar to those in service on the Dublin/Belfast line. Bright, comfortable and clean, they offer swishy doors and automated announcements. No more garbled gurgles drifting in and out of the speakers.
As for the circular-shaped toilets, the high-tech doors hiss open and closed, Star Trek fashion.
You press a green button to open the door. Once inside, you press another to close it. However, there is a third, red button, which is the lock. A lot of people are overlooking this, which may present a problem.
We went to inspect the facilities, pressed the lighted green button and the door duly did its Star Trek thing, only for us to be confronted by a gentleman bearing an uncanny likeness to William Shatner bending over the sink performing his ablutions.
If we'd gone to check a few minutes earlier, our intrepid Shatner lookalike would have learned the true meaning of what it is to "boldly go".
There's a new menu, and a beefed up trolley service. Thankfully, the full Irish breakfast remains, accompanied by our new national dish, the breakfast roll.
And here's the biggest development of all. The deep fat fryer is gone. No more chips.
The smell of rancid fat will soon be no more on intercity trains.
It's an all-change junction here. Even the locosexuals are nostalgic. The second order of carriages will have in-built thrusters. Phwoar! No more locomotives.
They are already mourning the loss of throb.
There's more to this trainspotting than meets the eye.
Miriam Lord
© Irish Independent 2006
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1618773&issue_id=14083
Wow, that Independant article is worse than anything I have read in a newspaper in my life. That includes the less 'high-brow' publications or celebrity magazines.
Mark Gleeson
23-05-2006, 10:44
The prize goes to thomasjstamp not the answer but without a doubt the best idea
The truth is here
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/news_centre/general_news.asp?action=view&news_id=50
The new trains will operate on:
- all regular Dublin-Cork route services
- key Dublin-Limerick and Dublin-Galway route services
The idea was to have the morning/afternoon/evening services to/from all three operated by the MK4/CDE sets deploying the left overs to take other Cork line services. Note the map doesn't have Waterford. CDE sets are permitted to Limerick
Mark Gleeson
23-05-2006, 11:02
Wow, that Independant article is worse than anything I have read in a newspaper in my life. That includes the less 'high-brow' publications or celebrity magazines.
To see how it is done have a listen to this http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/228-2142818.smil
I did spot a Indo journalist on the train, and I have to agree the 'facilities' have issues with locks, I did speak to the train manager while he struggled to keep control of door that hadn't locked and to his credit he gave an demonstration to a passenger. Given the PA was quite badly sick yesterday its clear the person writing the piece wasn't paying attention
Though this 'fiddly little stops' quote is going to haunt Barry Kenny its not the way to describe the situation in a politically safe manner
Thomas J Stamp
23-05-2006, 11:16
I think that Indo journalist is pitching for the vacent seat of Miriam Lord, perhaps?
Edit: Just realised it is her, thought she was off to The Erish Thimes?
Back of the class, girl..............
A second order for 150 more has been placed at a cost of €322m.
Love this bit:
Apparently, the younger, hipper manifestation of the breed like to refer to themselves as "locosexuals". They inhabit chat boards and websites. Locosexuals are likely to have well-thumbed copies of network timetables from around the world under their mattresses.
They also like to look at pictures of trains, but only when they're not taking pictures of trains.
Christ, only one week on Boards.ie and I'm bleedin famous!!! Not to mention, and i will:
younger, hipper
Yes, thats
younger, hipper
They obvously havent seen my profile!!!
James Shields
23-05-2006, 11:17
Oh dear. That Indo article is so over the top!
In fairness, they did catch a few things the others missed - like the same old loco on the end of the train.
I've noticed on the Enterprise that a lot of people forget to lock the door, despite a big hand pointing at the lock button and an incessent beeping. On the 2900s, when you close the door from the inside, a verbal instruction tells you to "lock door" (and thanks you when you do). I didn't check on the CDE, but it would seem logical to copy the same system.
Mark Gleeson
23-05-2006, 11:30
The Indo article is utter gutter journalism, if it was the Sun I could understand but the biggest selling paper in the country?
Thomas J Stamp
23-05-2006, 11:41
Ah, dont get me started on the indo!!! It was Ok (just) untill yer man from the Herald joined up and turned it into pure rubbish.
The gas thing is i cant get away from the bleedin thing, they give it away free to my son in the local school on Wednesday because they have a free schools suppliment, and, as readers of the Phoenix will know, they count these freebies in their circulation figures!! Also, Mrsthomasjstamp is collecting the bloody tokens for schools but I've restricted this act of perversion on her part to Saturdays.
And dont forget 1912 and all that, either!
You cant call that journalism. It's rubbish, I wrote better than that in my leaving cert.
Navan Junction
23-05-2006, 12:11
Wow, that Independant article is worse than anything I have read in a newspaper in my life. That includes the less 'high-brow' publications or celebrity magazines. You read celebrity magazines?:D
I wouldn't worry about it. It sounds like she got the run down on train 'fans' from talking to a real one, and got the humourous part with the real parts..
No harm.. Ye shower of locosexuals..:D:D
Oh sh1t, but I took pictures too.. I swear I only wanted to see what a real one looked like.:rolleyes:
You read celebrity magazines?:D
Oh no! My secret shame. :D
They were just the worst thing I could think of, until I read that article.
After seeing LCPs pix I am so totally jealous.
James Shields
23-05-2006, 12:48
Do my eyes decieve me? Or is it merely the camera angle?
Or have IE finally learned that train floor heights should MATCH (or close enough) platform heights?
There is definitely a step up to the train floor:
http://static.flickr.com/51/151449137_a9f03065f6.jpg
But perhaps they've made it more managable than the 2900s. Not having to hide an engine under the floor probably helps.
Mark Gleeson
23-05-2006, 14:14
Sure yet more photos
Here it is leaving Thurles, from the footbridge (its a miracle its still standing)
http://www.platform11.org/images/CDE/leaving_thurles.jpg
I'm sure I time we will have photos of everything
So is the CDE going to run on the 9:00 dublin to cork service everyday
Whens the introduction of the next set.
Mark Gleeson
23-05-2006, 16:16
So is the CDE going to run on the 9:00 dublin to cork service everyday
Whens the introduction of the next set.
9:00 Dublin Cork and 13:30 Cork Dublin all this week, it depends on the number of bugs that crop up and also on agreement of Cork drivers to drive
We should see another set in service within the next month but it depends on how things go. The key introduction day is the first citygold link
Derek Wheeler
23-05-2006, 19:33
While the indo article is hardly a serious account of the MK4s inaugural passenger run, I thought it was funny as the author, decided to take a particular angle. It was at the expense of "trainspotters". So what? Nobody got hurt. I assume she did her research online. If any of us look at some of the chat rooms, message boards etc, that is the impression you will get.
I mentioned in another thread somewhere that "trainspotters" need a serious rebranding. Many of them (not all) are identical to the stereotype. Its not a cool hobby. It hasn't been since the 1950s perhaps. But its up to a younger generation to change that if they feel aggreived.
I get called a "trainspotter" because I represent a rail users group. In the modern world, anyone with even the slightest interest or knowledge in railways is branded one. Thats just ignorance. However, the image of the traditional "trainspotter" is poor and wide open to redicule. I believe it puts rail enthuasiasts off, in general, from admitting their interest.
Just my two cents worth and I still think the indo article was funny.
If that journalist wanted to be funny, she should have put on a clown costume.
craigybagel
24-05-2006, 01:03
Its bringing more ridicule to a pastime thats already embarrassing enough.
Its bringing more ridicule to a pastime thats already embarrassing enough.
I agree. The article does nothing to help the locosexual image.
I did think it was amusing that it said "like to be called locosexuals" IIRC ThomasS made that up to abuse trainspotters.
Thomas J Stamp
24-05-2006, 09:18
He did actually, but it sort of got out of controll (car) last week. Dont get me wrong, I like Miriam Lord's stuff usually, but it was a week bit corney.
And yes, my mates do call me a trainspotter, one in particular when drunk likes to ask what numbers I have ect,ect. And I wanted to be a lumberjack.
Mark Gleeson
24-05-2006, 09:26
I'll admit the first thing I did when I got on board was to take a measuring tape out to measure the seating arrangements up, nerdy possibly but important to the passenger definitely
Key thing to note is I have never made a railway journey just because I could, there always was a need to make the journey.
End of the day the Indo sent someone to review the train and what we got was rubbish, I'm no english scholar but I could do a lot better without getting into cheap gags and pointless references, come on how much mileage can you get out of the toilet doors problem ?
Thomas J Stamp
24-05-2006, 09:54
Yeah but Mark you do it in the interests of the passangers, to ensure that what they are getting is at least as comfortable and user friendly as the carriages they are replacing, I'd be the same never got a train unless I was actually going somewhere and will frequently avoid getting one if I can!! I havent looked at some other place in a while will tonight if I get a chance to see what sort of review the CDE gets there.
Hi;
Nice to read all those accounts of the news train's inaugural journey.
What I'd like to know is does anyone out there know which train sets are scheduled for replacement by the first 2 new trains entering service, and when? So we can look forward (really soon) to fewer delays/breakdowns on mainline services. In other words, does IE have a plan whereby with each new train coming into service, a pre-defined older train is taken out of service? Thanks!
Mark Gleeson
24-05-2006, 12:33
Put simply at the moment the only services covered by the new train are the 9:00 Dublin Cork and 13:30 Cork Dublin and it will be like that for the next week at least
Despite the spin from IE and the unions no Cork drivers are currently driving the new train nor will they be driving for some time. That somewhat restricts operations. At the moment only 1 of the trains is passenger serviceable, the second set can be made serviceable quickly. Point to note at this stage the CDE set coudl be withdrawn at a moments notice for modification, the suspension is due further work I'm told it can be a bit giddy towards the rear of the train (not an unknown issue with other trains as well)
You won't see any change in train reliability really as the locomotive at the front is the same, the on train experience should be better on the new train, far less likely to have broken AC, the kind of faults the existing coaches suffer from typically don't leave you stuck in the middle nowhere
I'm guessing here but the 5:30 Cork Dublin and 21:00 Dublin Cork could be second to switch over
Irish Rail do have a plan (and a order) for the use of the ex Cork Line trains which are released by the new trains, they will take over on Limerick and Galway eliminating the 1970's coaches which then go for scrap. Before that happens each set needs to be refurbished
Thanks, Mark. However, your information couldn't have disappointed me more.
I thought these trains were to represent a jump forward on ALL fronts.
Sure, it's great that AC-related issues, etc., will occur less often, but that's a minor point given the overall service record on (un)reliability.
I gather from your answer that virtually all the improvements passengers will see relate to the carriages and are to an extent, cosmetic. So the engines - despite their sleek, curved front - are really the SAME as the old ones?
I saw on other posts there will be no speed increase.
Why was this model of engine chosen, since they will presumably be in service for quite a few years? Haven't IE done all sorts of track renovation and resignaling works over the past few years? I thought that now the system could now accommodate trains with a bit more power, etc.
I'm really disappointed by all this. I was looking forward to something a bit more innovative. Ciao.
All that has changed are the coach sets. They go from the 1984/1989 Mark 3 type to new "Mark 4" from CAF.
However, the new train still relies on a locomotive, and that is the same - the 201 class locomotive which powered the last coaches.
There will be no increase in speed as the tracks aren't fit for it, the new coaches have the same rated speed as the old ones.
I thought that now the system could now accommodate trains with a bit more power, etc.
I'm really disappointed by all this. I was looking forward to something a bit more innovative.Welcome to the Logic-Free Zone (CIE/Irish Rail)
No, OnTrack 2000 and the various overhauls before and after were mainly just maintaining the system at, or returning it to, a safe, operable condition. That said the Dub-Cork track was relaid a couple of decades ago and some of it is almost life-expired.
Thomas J Stamp
24-05-2006, 14:49
AZ1, you, like many others have made the mistake of thinking theres an engine at the pointy end, there isnt, its a generator for the lights, ect on the carraiges. This is great bit of spin form IE, albeit without them actually saying it. They have never said there is a new engine on the trains, however they havent gone out of their way to say there isnt either. Case in point their lovely tv ads whcih have pointy ends on both end!!!
Wow! So you mean the train can't even do turnarounds and operate from both ends? They will still have to unhook and run around the train to go back? I canNOT believe it! Why?
Was all of this just a major PR exercise? All we get is new interior design?
A slightly smoother run, a good paint job, functioning A/C, but that's it?
Boy did I fall for it, Big Time.
Mark Gleeson
24-05-2006, 15:11
Its a bit of a suprise when you finally realise Irish Rail are not so upfront with information, bet you wish you took the blue pill and stayed in the dream world Irish Rail have created. I coined the phrase, the Barry Kenny reality distortion field is strong
The principle complaints on intercity are
Heating not working, too hot/too cold
Catering non existant
Seat booking doesn't work
Toilets not working
Leaking roof other interior matters
New train kills all those problems, but none of them are reliability effecting
With the exception of Heuston there has been a total of 0 euro in capital investment in signalling between Dublin and Cork, the track is worse now than 10 years ago, the emphasis has been on making sure it doesn't fall apart not on making it better.
During the strike through numerous radio interviews we were able to say that the train had a repainted 12 year engine on one end and that the control console in the pointy end was exactly the same (I saw a photo a few months back).
Note the existing (MK3) coaches on Dublin Cork are capable of 200kph just like the new ones and we are damn sure the old ones are a lot more comfortable at 200kph than the new ones. The ride in the new coaches is marginally worse than the old ones (that said the de facto ride standard in Ireland and UK is the MK3 and is unlikely to be beaten)
The only serious difference is the fact it can be driven from either end which saves a heap of time at terminus stations
James Shields
24-05-2006, 15:17
I gather from your answer that virtually all the improvements passengers will see relate to the carriages and are to an extent, cosmetic. So the engines - despite their sleek, curved front - are really the SAME as the old ones?
Not quite - the engine is the same old boxy locomotive. The sleek curvey bit at the other end is a generator van with a driving cab, but it just controls the locomotive at the other end. The only change to the loco is a new paint job.
http://static.flickr.com/46/151439190_ea9cdd4ebb_m.jpg
In fairness, the 201s are fairly reliable these days. The did have a problem with the Enterprise coaches sucking the life out of them, but that seems to have been largely resolved. There's no guarantee new locos would be more reliable (though IE have learned some lessons about not letting the supplier off the hook until the bugs are ironed out). Better the devil you know and all that.
There's not much point in buying new high speed locos if the track isn't up to it. The plan would seem to be to spend the next few years upgrading the track for 200kph running, then replace the loco and generator van with a matching pair of power cars that would work in tandem.
ACustomer
24-05-2006, 15:22
Mark: you said on Post 51 above that no Cork drivers were rostered to drive the new trains, and sort of implied that there might be trouble if they were asked to do so. Can this be true? We were lead to believe that following the strike last week, IE drivers had agreed to drive the new trains (i.e. all IE drivers). So we did not get anything like a resolution of the problem last week(?). I presume that trouble could break out any day as soon as thier majesties in Cork are asked to drive a Mark IV? If true, this is really scandalous, even by the dreadful standard of Irish public sector carry-on.
Mark Gleeson
24-05-2006, 15:49
If you only knew what I know. Its exceedingly complex but there is trouble still in Cork, all kinds of problems. There was a total breakdown in trust last week. Platform 11 will issue a statement detailing exactly what did happen in coming days
The driver, guard and ticket checker of the 5:30 ex Cork on Monday took the CDE set back as passengers
Well why don't you tell us, you're normally forthcoming with information..
or is it confidential information ? :confused: ;) ;)
I thought it was funny as the author, decided to take a particular angle. It was at the expense of "trainspotters". So what? Nobody got hurt. I assume she did her research online. If any of us look at some of the chat rooms, message boards etc, that is the impression you will get.
I have to say I agree with you Derek, I thought it was funny too. Not the most sophisticated of humour OK, but funny nonetheless.
And I don't want to sound like an arsehole here, but speaking as someone who has little knowledge and even less interest in railway technology above joe punter, perhaps she might have a point? Anyway, maybe not for discussion here.
Mark Gleeson
24-05-2006, 16:45
Well why don't you tell us, you're normally forthcoming with information..
or is it confidential information ? :confused: ;) ;)
Certain things are too important, put it this way everything is in the public domain its a case of making the links.
why_does_planning_suck
24-05-2006, 16:49
if i linked "unions" with "w***ers", would that sum it up ?
Mark Gleeson
24-05-2006, 17:29
No actually
I have to say I agree with you Derek, I thought it was funny too. Not the most sophisticated of humour OK, but funny nonetheless.
And I don't want to sound like an arsehole here, but speaking as someone who has little knowledge and even less interest in railway technology above joe punter, perhaps she might have a point? Anyway, maybe not for discussion here.
Humor has no place in a factual article. And I say this as a person who enjoys comedy. It's just that there's a time, and a place, for everything. And low-blow stereotyping does not belong in a news article.
The basis for this "locosexual" nonsense was an insult by Tommy Sheridan aimed at certain WRC advocating IRNers. It then took on a life of its own, especially when Victor over at boards.ie for some stupid and absurd reason decided to pin two threads with LOCOSEXUAL in the titles, both of these threads shouldn't even have been open/existing let alone pinned.
I'd love to know just what the hell was that guy playing at?
Now it will likely be the new insult directed at trainspotters in general.
I have to credit its inventor though. It is a humourus term and to have in national media! If it does stick he will be the first person I've ever met who invented an insult and had become mainstream(ish).
Yes. Because there aren't enough stereotypes already.
Navan Junction
25-05-2006, 08:04
I'd love to know just what the hell was that guy playing at?
It wasn't stupid, it was humerous in it's intent.. Who could have guessed that it would have formed the basis of the Independent's CDE reporting?!
I'd bet that Miriam Lord has forgotten she even wrote the article - she'd probably be very surprised to hear that people were still talking about it, tbh...
In fact, she's in danger of becoming a quasi celebrity at this stage.. You could even be encouraging a second article if she is reading this....:eek:
And lets face it - the vroom bit high-lighted that it is still the same old loco, so from an information point of view maybe it wasn't that bad?
Mark Gleeson
25-05-2006, 13:05
If you only knew what I know. Its exceedingly complex but there is trouble still in Cork, all kinds of problems. There was a total breakdown in trust last week. Platform 11 will issue a statement detailing exactly what did happen in coming days
The driver, guard and ticket checker of the 5:30 ex Cork on Monday took the CDE set back as passengers
I've been asked to clarify this statement
The driver, guard and ticket checker of the 5:30 ex Cork always return on the 9:00 ex Dublin as passengers, its normal and nothing to do with the CDE train or any disputes. The statement failed to acknowledge this, giving the impression it was related to the dispute, it was an observation of what actually took place on Monday
But there are issues in Cork which are unresolved, to do with the new train yes, to do with driving it, no. Doesn't matter fact is issues remain
The driver, guard and ticket checker of the 5:30 ex Cork always return on the 9:00 ex Dublin as passengers, its normal and nothing to do with the CDE train or any disputes.
Forgive me for being naive as I know nothing about how train employees operate but why does the Cork driver and associated staff not operate the return train to Cork?
Mark Gleeson
28-05-2006, 20:37
The Craig Doyle has reappeared on the telly with a revised ad, of course the ugly locomotive is not shown, looks like it was shot last Christmas
One thing I didn't point out last week is each coach carries two external displays on each side which display the destination and also the coach number, A, B, C etc which is handy to help you find your seat, also means you avoid the curse of two coach 'X's appearing as the old fashioned way it was labeled manually
Thomas J Stamp
28-05-2006, 22:38
Actually, Sean, I quite liked the enite Locosexual thread in boards and was delighted to see it stickied. I will never, ever, forgive myself for forgetting to used the term "coupling" in that thread, it'll surely haunt me till the day I die. And yea, i knicked Derek's famous line for my sig. Not changing it, though.
and, O/T the lads to always go back on the 9.00 am train and the ticket lad on Friday looked most exceedingly dapper what with his cap wearing tomfoolerly and that. Fab.
Mark Gleeson
07-06-2006, 09:13
Information has reached us that the second MK4/CDE set may enter service today, starting from Cork possibly, we have no firm info on times by it could be the 9:30 or 11:30 Cork Dublin and 15:00 Dublin Cork.
craigybagel
08-06-2006, 00:24
Was on the 0900 Dublin Cork on Tuesday we were running a little late by Mallow and a number of passengers bound for Fota and Cobh for the day were worried about making theyre connection at cork. So they ask the guard/train manager/random member of staff in nice new blue uniform if he can get the Conh train held at cork for them. Staff member duly rang Kent station but his request was denied. What was interesting though was what he said afterwards. "id ask the driver to speed up a bit but because of industrial relations issues im not allowed do so".
Any thoughts anyone?
Was on the 0900 Dublin Cork on Tuesday we were running a little late by Mallow and a number of passengers bound for Fota and Cobh for the day were worried about making theyre connection at cork. So they ask the guard/train manager/random member of staff in nice new blue uniform if he can get the Conh train held at cork for them. Staff member duly rang Kent station but his request was denied. What was interesting though was what he said afterwards. "id ask the driver to speed up a bit but because of industrial relations issues im not allowed do so".
Any thoughts anyone?
Holding the train could be problematic. There's a tight turnaround in Cobh (6 mins) and any delay to the train could have had a knock on effect during the day.
As regards making the connection, there are a few points. Cork-Mallow is one of the most heavily padded sections of the network. InterCities are scheduled to take over half an hour, but it's not uncommon for them to do it in 23/24 minutes. Being late in Mallow does not necessarily mean you'll be late in Cork.
More relevant is that the 9:00am Dublin-Cork train is the 11:21 Mallow-Cork train. The 12:00 Cork-Cobh is the 11:35 Mallow-Cobh. So, unless the train was over quarter of an hour late in Mallow, it would have been still running ahead of the train that they were connecting too. Once they were in Mallow, there would either have been no possibility or no problem. The guard should have been able to find this out.
If Cork-Cobh could go half-hourly throughout the day, this would cease to be a significant problem.
craigybagel
08-06-2006, 09:42
Thanks but im aware of the above and we left Mallow before the Cobh train so i knew that wed make it to Cork before it did and that it wouldnt be a problem (although it does seem strange that neither the IE staff member on board or the manager in Cork he rang was aware of this) but i was more curious about the staff being forbidden because of industrial relations issues from communicating with the driver.
Mark Gleeson
08-06-2006, 10:14
Would be fairly obvious to look outside the window at Mallow and spot the railcar
To hold a train you ring Connolly not anywhere else as the line controller is there.
There is a speed restriction outside Port Laois which is holding trains up resulting in delay
I'm sure the safety people take a dim view of someone telling the driver to speed up afterall a green signal means proceed at line speed can't go faster than that
Yeah, according to the crew it's the second set. They were blabbering away to interested passengers this morning.
Major plus points:
1) Crew well dressed, suits rather than the usual uniform.
2) Excellent Passenger Info system, far better than anything I've seen on IE to-date.
3) On-train cleaners. A cleaner went up and down the train picking up any rubbish passengers might have on their tables and making sure everything was spick and span.
4) Train manager made a manual announcement introducing himself.
5) Excellent climate control. The journey was very comfortable.
6) I wouldn't say the suspension's bad, but it's a little harder than the MK3s. Also, the actual trains are very heavily sound insulated so you tend to notice any noise/vibration. I'd say it could be tweaked to make it a bit softer. I didn't find the ride particularly poor though, it felt very solid and smooth for most of the journey.
7) Wide doors, wide easily maintainable toilets.
8) Simplified carriage end doors and improved, well insulated gangways.
Overall, I was very impressed by my first trip. They feel a lot less cluttered than an IE MK3 and are a hell of a lot brighter and quieter on board. I don't think the suspension is anywhere near as bad as the enterprise though.
Also, the coaches seem to be EXTREMELY heavily computerised. Even the toilets have voice prompts suggesting that you should lock the door by pressing the lock button:)
Glitches:
1) The PIS didn't announce our arrival at Charleville... It worked flawlessly for every other station.
2) When it arrived in Cork it went to huge effor to explain where all the bus links, taxis etc are located but didn't mention that the No 5 bus runs regular services to the city centre.
Incidently, one of the crew was explaining the PIS to someone. Apparently it's using GPS location to figure out where it is. It doesn't rely on the signalling system.
I am well impressed anyway. I found the whole experience slick and professional which is somthing I never thought I'd have said about CIE.
Mark Gleeson
13-06-2006, 18:00
3) On-train cleaners. A cleaner went up and down the train picking up any rubbish passengers might have on their tables and making sure everything was spick and span. But could you find a bin ?
Also, the coaches seem to be EXTREMELY heavily computerised. Even the toilets have voice prompts suggesting that you should lock the door by pressing the lock button:)That was the major bug on day one, was fixed quickly by turning the volume up
1) The PIS didn't announce our arrival at Charleville... It worked flawlessly for every other station. The PIS guys are on site in Inchicore and I can be almost certain that a senior manager was onboard as well to badysit the train. There are some PIS changes coming
Yeah, found a bin, there was a small one located opposite my seat, similar to the bins you'd find in a MK3 coach i.e. tiny.
The on board cleaner took absolutely everything though. she just went along with a large bin bag removing anything that was destined for the bin.
I'd say she passed through our coach at least 4 times.
Thomas J Stamp
14-06-2006, 10:06
Just to note a CDE went past the gaff at 11.00 last night heading towards Cork all lit up, couldnt have been a service that late, maybe they're mvoing them into position for this morning?
There were Spanish, CAF crew on board the CDE on Tuesday morning. Seems they're still very much doing a shakedown and tweak.
Thomas J Stamp
14-06-2006, 12:52
Yes, they were probably brought over to take photos of the 201 pulling their lovely carraiges. "Oy, Jose, what the fuches ess thees heap of garbage doing on our trains??? And whats with theese yello and orange sheet?"
Mark Gleeson
14-06-2006, 12:58
Its industry standard practice for a engineering team to be onboard a new train. Bear in mind nothing beats a train load of passengers to shakedown such things as the toilet and automatic doors. There is still work ongoing on the ride, so you need people on board to review the performance. The PIS issue requires someone to sit there and watch to catch the glitches
Set 4002 did have a scary moment last week when she shut down for a short time, having the engineers on board means it gets fixed on site quickly and the train staff learn first hand how to deal with faults, you can't just give it a thump like the old trains
Thomasjstamp,
There are plenty of far uglier locos hauling talgos and other fast intercity trains in spain. They go a step further and paint them a lovely colour of extra hideous yellow.
http://www.wefer.com/imatges/renfe/252-alt-02.jpg
The 201 actually fits into the CDE sets in its new livery much more so than it does with the MK3. The whole set looks more "together".
The IE orange colour scheme applied to the MK3 was never the same as the orange on the 201 locos. They're a much brighter shade and it never looked quite right.
The CDE livery on the 201 looks extremely good. Sure, they're not as slick as a pointed powercar, but they don't look at all bad.
I've actually heard people talking about the "new engines" and refering to repainted 201s. They seem to suit that kind of silver livery.
Incidently, there are a few very feasable high speed engine options out there that could be built into a CDE powercar.
read: http://www.mtu-friedrichshafen.com/en/ps/ps_050112_1.htm
There are some almost off-the-shelf sollutions out there that could be rolled out with the CDE sets.
Interestingly, the CAF site talks about the CDE having an "initial operating speed of 160km/h" so, I can only assume that IE planned 200km/h operation soon.
There are some interesting highspeed diesels appearing in spain too...
http://www.revistalineas.com/Lineas11/fotos/noticia01-05.jpg
IE could quite reasonably come up with a suitable powercar.
Thomas J Stamp
14-06-2006, 16:34
That is an awful train in Spain (probably on the plain, mainly) admittedly, the vision of a dozen Manuels falling around dressed as waiters after glimpsing an orange and yellow 201 at the end of their nice train just floated into my mind.......
that last photo, I have a feeling that the new intercity DMU's will be like that
James Shields
15-06-2006, 10:15
1) Crew well dressed, suits rather than the usual uniform.
2) Excellent Passenger Info system, far better than anything I've seen on IE to-date.
3) On-train cleaners. A cleaner went up and down the train picking up any rubbish passengers might have on their tables and making sure everything was spick and span.
4) Train manager made a manual announcement introducing himself.
These are all common enough on the Enterprise (shame the same can't be said for your other positives), so I'm very glad to see them copied on the CDE. Lets hope they'll be seen on other intercity services in due course.
Comparing the CDE ride to the Enterprise, the CDE wins hands down. Its not perfect, but for the most part its smooth with just occasional bumps. The DD coaches, by comparison, shake and shudder all over the place.
I found the ride pretty comparable to the MK3 coaches to be honest. I think the major difference is that you feel and hear the bumps more on the CDE coaches because of vastly improved sound insulation and fully-functional smoothly operating end doors.
The MK3 coaches make plenty of creaks and groans as they move along, most of which seems to come from the gangways and coupling systems. You don't hear any of that on the CDEs as the gangways seem to be far more insulated and generally a much slicker design. I suspect the tighter coupling helps that too. When that's combined with working end doors, excellent double glazing and the much more silent climate control / ventilation system you tend to hear any little bump.
The insulation levels are extreemly good. When it passed other trains at full speed and passed under bridges etc, you didn't really hear anything.
The MK3 coaches produce an acceptably good ride too but it has its downsides.
I certainly found the CDE ride different, but I wouldn't have said it was worse than the MK3s. Overall, it's a more pleasant train to be on-board. It is smoother, even if you notice the odd bump. The best description I could give is the suspension is very smooth, but perhaps a little harder.
The MK3s are excellent coaches, but they're knocking on and are no where near as highly specified. They might compare well if they had a total internal refurbishment, including new air con, end doors, seats, lighting ...
I think CAF and Design Triangle did an excellent job on these though. They are FAR nicer than the new virgin trains I've been on in the UK.
The CDE interiors just feel bright, airy, clean, comfortable and spacious. The tint used on the windows is also far more suited to the irish climate than the dark brown tint used on some of the other sets e.g. the cu na mara. It creates a daylight blue sort of ambiance inside. Some of the tinted windows I've seen in the UK make the train look dark inside and would be more suited to very sunny climates.
The seats are not quite as springy as the MK3s, they're clearly some sort of foam, more like modern airline seats, but I found them comfortable. I'm quite tall and have always found the MK3 seats absolutely horrible as they have a really weird design that pushes my back into an almost hunched position. i.e. the lower part of what should be the headrest hits me just above the shoulder blades and the rest of the seat provides no lower back support. The CDE seat design was much more back-friendly.
I also suspect that the heavily sprung seat bottoms in the MK3 masks some of the vibration.
My suspension test is the cup of coffee on the table... It didn't move/splash/vibrate and behaved very much like it does on a MK3. If you try this on the MK2s, CAF / Mitsui Commuters or Cravens you'll see the difference!!!
Mark Gleeson
15-06-2006, 13:19
Of course it is important to note the first MK3 rolled off the production line in 1972, the interior in the Irish batch is the same, the production run lasted without revision until 1989 which was exceptional (the MK3 intl wasn't as good). The real comparison is the enterprise coaches and there is no comparison the CDE wins hands down
I've only been on set 4002 and Irish Rail managers were quick to point out 2 facts,
1) Its sooooo much better than enterprise
2) Its not perfect more tweaks coming
4002 was swapped for 4003 which presumably has the improved suspension. The ride is good but when you hit a seriously rough patch the MK3 is still king
The real test is what the coaches will be like with 250,000 km on the clock
We hope Irish Rail will retain and rebuild a significant number of the MK3 coaches, from a design point of view it hasn't been bettered, its 7.5 tons lighter than the CDE coach, has automatic doors and a proven safety in the highest speed rail accidents to have occured. All it really needs is an interior refit. GNER in the UK have done so to much aclaim
If there in any of the UK crew reading this is your MK5 for the taking and yes a 26m version would be possible
The only problem would be that the MK3, even refurbished, would have wheelchair accessiblity issues. Are the side doors wide enough for proper wheelchair access? The internal doors and seating layouts could easily be modified to suit.
MK3 is a nice coach, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying the CDE is pretty excellent. Certainly seems to be the best thing to hit the rails since the MK3s.
IE/NIR should seriously consider buying a few more sets to suplement or replace the DD coaches on the enterprise run.
a CDE + high speed power car combination would be pretty good!
Is the Belfast line "bumpier" by any chance?
craigybagel
15-06-2006, 20:14
When did the two sets swap? Ive travelled on the CDE twice now:Wednesday the 7th and Wednesday the 14th of this month, both times travelling all the way down to Cork and returning on Mk3s and if theyve made changes to the suspension on the 4003 set then it hasnt worked the ride on both trips was pretty bad. The trains themselves are brilliant and a huge improvement on the Mk3s but for me the ride did stand out as being very poor.
Apparently they've just swapped this week.
How are those kinds of adjustments made? Does it involve actually physically tweaking the springs and dampers? or do those trains have some sort of active suspension that can be software-adjusted?
Btw, speaking of the enterprise's bumps and rocky ride, are there any other similar trains elsewhere in europe? I know that I have been on some rather bumpy french non-TGV trains in the southwest of france. Just wondering if they're also De Deitrich suspensions?
I know the early TGVs had serious ride issues on non-TGV track.
De Deitrich, was one of several companies involved in the TGV project. De Deitrich off-loaded its transit division (De Dietrich Ferroviaire) to Alstom in the 1990s, so the Enterprise is now effectively an Alstom product. It's now Alstom DDF
James Shields
16-06-2006, 13:22
As far as I know the DD coaches are the same as the ones operating on the channel tunnel route. The track on that route is built to a very different stnadard, though.
Mark Gleeson
16-06-2006, 13:31
DD built the coaches based on the Eurostar bodyshell, note the Enterprise coaches are longer in length.
The suspension is completely different compared to the TGV setup, that coaches are not articulated for a start. Principle problem on enterprise is the cornering it sways like mad since there is no yaw damping so the bogie hunts around, the CDE sets have a big fat yaw damper. Was talking to someone who went to Belfast recently first complaint I couldn't write the thing has shaking too much
We presume that set 4002 was withdrawn for modifications to be carried out, its a spanner job. I know a new PIS software version is also planned.
Mark,
I noticed that the CDE PIS has a few little glitches.
When it welcomes passengers aboard at intermediate stops it announces that this is the "insert current time" train from Dublin to Cork...
Which sort of doesn't make sense. It was saying things like "this is the 11:05 service from Dublin Heuston to Cork... and will be calling at Cork" when it got to mallow.
It would make sense if it said "this is the 11:05 service from Mallow to Cork, en route from Dublin" or something like that.
I know french trains say something along those lines.
Mark Gleeson
16-06-2006, 14:45
This is the glitch
Leaving Kildare the 9:00 train will say this is the 9:30 Dublin Cork, thats being removed and replaced with this is the 9:00 Dublin Cork, 11:05 makes no sense if you are 20 minutes late
James Shields
16-06-2006, 15:53
I fully agree with the Enterprise complaint. I have written on 2900s, which aren't exactly noted for their ride, and as long as you watch out for the bumps, its managable. By comparison, the Enterprise is a disaster. I found I couldn't write on it at all without the pen jumping all over the page.
As an aside, when we went for the trst run on the CDE, NavanJunction and I got off at Kildare and got a 2900 back. It was interesting to compare the ride on them - obviously the 2900 was vastly inferior, and the comment was "I wouldn't like to be on one of these to Sligo!"
Well, fingers crossed the 29Ks will be replaced with Mitsui intercity DMUs in the not too distant future.
The 29Ks shouldn't be doing intercity runs. It's just totally unacceptable to even pretend that they're intercity trains. They're a decent commuter train and should run as billed.
Trying to compare the CDE to the 29Ks is like trying to compare a luxury long distance coach to a city articulated "bendy bus".
At least the 29000s will bounce you the entire way to your destination. The enterprise seems to frequently decide to apply the parking brakes half way there!
Could the Enterprise be mechanically refurbished i.e. new bogies? e.g. if the CDE bogie and suspension system is successful, perhaps contract CAF to re-do the entire underside of the entrprise coaches and run MK3 city gold sets while they're away for servicing?
Mark Gleeson
17-06-2006, 09:51
Bit of a bigger glitch this morning
The 9:00 Dublin Cork broke down before leaving Heuston, locomotive died for some reason
Doesnt sound like it's anything to do with the coaches though. It's not a 201 that has seen enterprise service is it ?
Red Alert
17-06-2006, 12:12
The 201's (expertly bought by 'experts' and then misused by 'experts') could throw a spanner into the CDE sets. The Mk4 should possibly have been built for 071-compatible operation too (i gather there's some reason you can't do an 071 on a Mk4). CIE seem hell bent on removing all orange-colour-vintage coaches and locos at the expense of everything else and have this DMU "like it or lump it" obsession.
I don't see why the 201s will be any less reliable on the CDE than they have been on the MK3 sets that have been running on that line for years.
The 201 is *not* providing HEP for the CDE sets. They have their power needs met by their lead coach's generator set. The enterprise is the only train with HEP provided by the loco.
The 201s haven't been at all unreliable on non-enterprise runs.
I doubt this is anything more than a freak incident.
I haven't seen an 071 operating a Cork-Dublin MK3 set in a VERY long time.
The Intercity DMUs *should* be a good sollution. Using 29000 commuter DMUs on intercity routes has seriously tarnished their reputation!
The 071 class cannot run the CDE because they aren't capable of push-pull operation. It would be a simple matter to move the standard kit from a dead 121 or whatever but IE doesn't want to know about it. I think there's other stuff with the coupler as well, presumably age and horsepower (both worse on the 071) would also come into play.
Trying to compare the CDE to the 29Ks is like trying to compare a luxury long distance coach to a city articulated "bendy bus".But if the company that made the bendy-bus made one with an uber-crappy ride and then built the luxury coach with a similar suspension, you'd have concerns too, right?
craigybagel
18-06-2006, 11:41
Nothing wrong with the 201s failures will happen anyway regardless of what engines on the train and for all my travels in Ireland ive never yet had a loco fail on me. DMUs on the other hand.......anyway this thread is about the CDEs and apart from the ride, and even that isnt all that bad, and im sure it can be fixed soon enough, the trains are otherwise near perfect, and once theyve finish messing around with the ride im sure the result will be a train that is a pleasure (even if your not a locosexual ;) ) to travel on and something that we should be happy with and dare i say proud of.
I was on a mark 3 from Cork to Dublin a few days ago and honestly, without agenda, the ride wasn't very good at all on the bumpy bits. It jolted enough to spill my coffee at one stage.
I really didn't find the CDE ride any worse. Again, I'd reckon the major difference is that the CDE coaches are *EXTREMELY* quiet and when you do hear and feel a bump, you notice it more.
There is certainly a difference in how the two trains ride, but I wouldn't actually say that the CDE is worse than the MK3.
The CDE felt smooth, solid and was exceptionally quiet. It is a "harder" suspension though. The MK3 can tend to be noisey, creaky and do quite a bit of jolting on poor track. It also doesn't brake as smoothly as the CDE.
The suspensions are possibly a little harder, although I'm sure that the tweaks will take care of that.
However, I don't think any suspension system can really iron out the fact that some of the tracks are quite badly worn and need replacement. Both the MK3 and the CDE run fantastically well on decent track.
Quote:
Trying to compare the CDE to the 29Ks is like trying to compare a luxury long distance coach to a city articulated "bendy bus".
But if the company that made the bendy-bus made one with an uber-crappy ride and then built the luxury coach with a similar suspension, you'd have concerns too, right?
This is certainly not the case, the CDE rides quite well and things can only improve as tweaks are done. It seems to have a pretty decent suspension system.
There's absolutely nothing in common between the CDE and the 29000 ride or their respective suspension systems other than that they're both made by CAF. The Commuter fleet's built to a totally different spec and wouldn't have 125mph bogies. Having the commuters on intercity duty's ridiculous. Perhaps Dustin the Turkey wasn't too far from reality during his presidential campaign back a few years ago. One of his main manefesto items was to "Extend the DART to Dingle"... seems IE have pretty much done that!
On-board, it's right up there with the best of the newest high speed stock in Europe. Very plush and the decor is excellent.
There's absolutely nothing in common between the CDE and the 29000 ride or their respective suspension systems other than that they're both made by CAF.
That was enough for me to be seriously concerned intially, given the way the 29K rides I was afraid CAF was just using some crappy rehashed off the shelf design meant for hi quality tracks on everything.
Thankfully I've been proven wrong.
Mark Gleeson
18-06-2006, 22:17
Quite a few of us know a thing or two about ride since we have had bad experiences, but joe public don't care
Will the average passenger be happy with the ride of the new Cork Dublin train, yes, the fine details are not critical
Mark's spot on. The ride's not perfect, but neither are the tracks! Joe Public, and I include myself in that, are very impressed with the train and really couldn't care less about the ride. It's more than acceptable and certainly smooth enough to write, eat, use your laptop in comfort.
Personally, I found it a lot easier to walk along the CDE.. The MK3s can throw you off balance now and then.
The only time I saw members of the public getting worried about ride quality was on a MK2 some years ago. It went into some kind of a strange and rather disconcerting vibration. It was enough to cause everyone to get up and leave the coach. I think it had some serious suspension problem.
I was on the CDE this morning (9 am Dublin-Cork) and noticed a few problems.
1) The train departed >20 mins late. There as an apology announcement explaining that they were waiting on a signal.
2) The PIS system wasn't activated properly. The maps were working showing the train's position and the train was doing its default "welcome" message explaining that it was an express service and no smoking etc. It contained no information about the journey, no destination, times etc.
It also did a few announcements explaining that there was a snack bar at the rear of the train etc. although at least once it said it was at the front ... seems someone's pressing the wrong button.
The driver then made unintelligible door closing announcements which were basically deafening engine noise with something mumbled. It sounds like the 201 has its microphone mounted deep within the engine room. If the cab's really that noisy, I'd say we'll have train driver deafness claims in a few years time.
Anyway, I hope it's a minor technical glitch and not how things will be on the CDE from now on.
They didn't even bother to announce half of the stations.
On arrival at Cork it was announced as "we will shortly be arriving at Cork Station.. please mind the gap"
The manual announcements made by the guard/train manager and catering staff were clear enough though. Far clearer than they usually are on the MK3, the levels were set correctly.
So in terms of the general cabin atmosphere, looking at the various photos incl lostcarpark's below, is the CDE a little more 'budget fitted' than the Enterprise?
http://static.flickr.com/52/151439188_d92a08e932.jpg
No doubt the flash in the pics doesn't help matters, but one gets the impression that the acoustics and general comfort levels (ride quality aside) are that little bit harsher than its Northern Line equivalent?
The Enterprise's carpet-clad interior, tailored lighting and (apparently) deeper seating would appear to offer a more comfortable, muted experience - would this be the case?
Also what are these Mitsui intercity DMUs - mentioned all the time, but I've never got round to asking what they are or look like :o. Are they on order or do we have them already? Sorry for going OT a bit...
James Shields
01-07-2006, 17:42
So in terms of the general cabin atmosphere, looking at the various photos incl lostcarpark's below, is the CDE a little more 'budget fitted' than the Enterprise?
This is just my persional opinion, but I would have to say the CDE fit-out is absolutely top notch. I would put it well ahead of the Enterprise. I find the Enterprise coaches very dark and depressing, and the colour scheme makes me wonder was the designer suffering from depression.
The CDE coaches are bright and airy. There is a fair bit of plastic, but it's not nearly as clinical as the 2900s. The colours are generally uplifting and the first impression I got when I walked in was "oh, this is a bit posh". And we weren't even in the first class section.
The only complaints I have were the lack of litter bins (not a problem if cleaning staff pass through the train regularly), and the lack of anywhere to plug a laptop in.
The photos definitely don't do it justice. It's a very impressive train interior when you actually get inside it and there's no feel of "cheap" about it. Everything's top notch. The colour scheme's definitely a whole lot brighter than the Enterprise, but that's not a bad thing. It's much more suitable for the generally dismal Irish climate. Likewise, there's a bluish daylight tint to the windows that seems to create the perfect balance of shade and brightness. It's a bit like mildly blue tinted sunglasses (shades). The Enterprise and the MK3 Internationals (Cu na Mara) are both absolutely depressing trains to be on board. The enterprise seems to suffer from french beige interior design syndrome. It's just dull and dark and poorly lit.
Don't forget the CDE was designed by Design Triangle, the same people who styled the heathrow express.
Heathrow express visualisation: http://www.designtriangle.com/images/h1.jpg The CDE has quit a similar feel, just more "intercity"
Link to CDE prototype (without the new livery)
http://www.designtriangle.com/images/Picture_3328.jpg
http://www.designtriangle.com/images/ce4-a_tmb.jpg
The original styling sketches in old livery.
Design triangle do pretty much everything right down to the carpet and and seating material patterns. It's a very very classy job. The CityGold coaches are absolutely stunning. They're nicer than the TGV business class stuff I've been on in France and a whole lot better styled than any of the new UK stuff.
The enterprise didn't really get that kind of styling.
The MK3 internationals seem to have been designed for a MUCH brigher climate. The window tints are far too strong and the lighting's not a whole lot better than a candle. They could do with an entirely new lighting system and having their tinted windows replaced.
Graham,
The Intercity DMUs (Diesel Multiple Units) are on order, no one has seen one yet. They're the signle biggest order of trains in CIE's history and, when the full fleet arrives, will replace pretty much everything except he CDE and Enterprise. i.e. they'll operate on all other mainlines.
They're ordered from Mistui of Japan who have subcontracted to Tokyu car (japan) and Rotem (South Korea). Iarnrod Eireann has put in a pretty high specification, similar to the CDE although with a 160km/h design max speed.
ínitially 120 of them at a cost of €262 --- the order was then extended to include sufficient cars for the Sligo and Roslaire lines too.
According to the Rotem website, delivery's expected to commence this November.
http://www.rotem.co.kr/
http://www.tokyu-car.co.jp/eng/index.html
Further info about the CDE can be found at :http://www.caf.net/ingles/productos/proyecto.php?cod=10&id=611&sec=desc
Also, while it may not be carpet-clad, it is well carpeted throughout.
Does anyone have enterprise interior pics to contrast?
I'll try and get some during the week.
Thank you very much for all of that MrX, and lostcarpark – most enlightening :)
Regarding the CDE interior, I shall take your word for it so until I have an opportunity to use it! Certainly on closer inspection the seating looks very comfortable (if a bit frumpy in design), and the plastic fittings are very stylishly moulded – the diffused lighting also quite elegant. What’s the lighting like at seat level though, given there’s no over-seat or over-window lighting?
I generally tend to prefer darker interiors, but that’s just a personal thing, probably formed by exposure to the 2900s! Suppose I have an affinity with it from morning commuting – the Enterprise has got a dark cabin interior perfectly suited to early-morning sleeping, as everyone who uses it knows! And the carpet everywhere generats a more muted, softer experience. But yes the Enterprise can feel very depressing, though bizarrely more on a sunny day than a dull one! In overcast or wet/cold conditions it’s nice to get into the cosy dark Enterprise with its warm central tungsten lighting, while it’s more depressing on a sunny day to have to board into gloom.
However the CDE more than makes up for the slightly harder interior with good design; the bright interior is well served with crisp, clean lines – lines the Enterprise patches over with shadows :). Those light blue curtains will get manky rather quickly though won’t they? Does the CDE have carpet up to the windows by the way?
The Heathrow Express is simply stunning – wow! Is that a first class carriage, or standard? An excellent firm judging by their site. More of this please.
By the way, how is the CDE first class marketed? – plain ‘first class’ or the more PC ‘First Plus’?
Thanks for the DMU information – given Rotem’s site it would appear that these intercitys are the highest spec DMUs they’ve yet produced, and their most challenging order with dining cars etc too.
So if DMUs, does this mean dreaded underslung engines for our new Intercity fleet? Have engine developments moved on since they lumped us with the 2900s? It would be a disaster if we got anything near what our current DMUs force on patrons, and for the image of rail travel in Ireland. Are DMUs being acquired over push-pulls for flexibility and reliability? – and they now standard stock in Europe for use on such routes?
I see the Indo reported that the final 30 in 2007-8 will be used in the GDA which is good to see, hopefully to offer some relief from the dominance of 2900s in this area – otherwise will the new DMUs be used country-wide to replace the MK II? Will they merely replace them in number or will there be a surplus with this Rotem order?
Thanks! (did a search, but not much info :))
Graham,
The CDE interior is pretty much Heathrow Express style but more geared towards intercity than a short hop.
The "First Class" service on the Cork line has been branded CityGold for some years. The Cork MK3 fleet has pretty plush and well designed coaches for CityGold service with similar levels of service to that found on the Enterprise First Plus. The CityGold brand has been retained on the new fleet. The CityGold CDE coaches are extremely plush and very visually impressive inside.
The light levels are excellent through the train, not too bright, not too dark.
Don't forget the Cork line has had IE's best stock on it since the 1980s, the Cork MK3s are excellent coaches and the CityGold coaches are pretty high spec. So the CDE has a lot to live up to!
The Intercity DMUs are due to replace *EVERYTHING* other than the CDE and the Enterprise i.e. the MK2s, the Cravens, and thankfully 29000s on Intercity duties.
The future of the MK3 fleet remains unclear, some may be used to bolster the Enteprise. Don't forget, these are still excellent coaches and are far better technical spec than the enterprise i.e. they actually do operate at 100mph (design speed, like the CDE is 125mph) and overall, they're in decent condntion. The IE fleet of MK3s being quite a bit younger than its British cousins, it dates from 1984-1988.
The existing Cork CityGold sets would really show Enterprise customers what a train should be like! It'd be nice to see them cosmetically refurbished.
The existing MK3 and new CDE business class service :
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/images/our_services/citygold.gif
Gives you an overview of the services on the MK3 citygold sets:
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/our_services/citygold.asp
Including a 3D coach interior view.
Mark Gleeson
02-07-2006, 23:13
Its not a fair comparison to compare a 2900 and the new CDE trainsets, they are two very different trains for very different jobs, one is a high density low speed commuter train the other is a long distance high speed
The CDE coaches and 2900 units have a family connection the NI C3K which shares some of its interior design with the new Cork coaches, there is a 460 hp engine under the floor and its quiet and it rides very very well.
French design trains seem to be dark, bright and airy is the way and if you have a lighting failure we will really appreciate a bright interior
The carpet remains on the floor the walls are plastic. The luggage racks are large and have tinted glass in them, the lighting is good.
You cant really knock it till you have tried it
Not knocking at all Mark - only questioning, not having used one yet.
And no comparision was made with the 2900!
CityGold is of course the first class MrX - doh!
And there was Eddie Hobbs on it only this time last year too :o
These were all refitted around 1993 or 1994 weren't they?
Excellently fitted, thanks for the pics, which combined with the quality of Mk3 makes for one hell of a service alright. Most certainly they ought to be refurbished - with a new livery and interior fit-out they'd be good to go for another 20 years. Wonderfully comfortable trains - only the windows are uncommonly high are they not? They only real drawback, combined with a lack of window-based aircon as I recall...
As for the new Intercitys, I really do hope the engine problems associated with DMUs up till now have been resolved for this massive order.
Not only that, the CDE and 29000s might share the same manufactuer but they don't share a design team.
The CDE is a Design Triangle product, like the Heathrow Express.
The 29000s were styled and designed by Dolmen in Dublin.
Same people who did the CityGold coaches.
The 29000s are an excellent design in my opinion. the NIR C3Ks would be way over the top for commuter services and would have serious maintenence and cleaning issues.
The key problem with the 29000s is that IE are trying to pass them off as new intercity services in Sligo... it's utter nonsense. The whole process has simply given the whole concept of DMUs a bad name in Ireland.
To get back on topic though:
The CDE interior is, in my opinion, spot on for the Irish climate and landscape! I've travelled on it so far on a very dull day and on a very bright day and it was equally pleasant on both trips. The lights are diffused quite well and you can sleep.
In general, French trains are pretty dull onboard though. Many TGVs are pretty disappointing on board..
e.g. http://www.drfphoto.com/images/db/tgv_interior1.jpg
Frump Central :D
Can't disagree with you there!
Where other than poor Sligo have the 2900s been inflicted on unsuspecting Intercityers??
CAF's 2900 page:
http://www.caf.net/ingles/productos/proyecto.php?cod=5&id=451&sec=desc
Frump Central :D
Can't disagree with you there!
Where other than poor Sligo have the 2900s been inflicted on unsuspecting Intercityers??
1: Rosslare. Was actually a big improvement over the 2700s.
2: Sunday services to Galway and Limerick.
3: Enterprise cover ... which I'm sure you're well aware of.
Maynooth_Line
03-07-2006, 10:36
It's usually 2800's on the Rosslare route, though the 29000's do make the occasional appearance.
It's a bit ridiculous having the 2700s running on the Mallow-Tralee services too. It's a major tourist route and has a lot of people trying to carry luggage and bikes. Also, it's not really a short trip from Mallow to Tralee!
The cravens may have been ancient, but they did have a luggage van!
craigybagel
12-07-2006, 21:28
But the cravens arent disabled accessible and they had to go sometime soon.reliability issues aside the 2700s are the best DMUs for longer trips like the Kerry line and until the new InterCity DMUs come in theyre probably the best trains available for it.
Mark Gleeson
13-07-2006, 10:57
I wouldn't call the new CDE coaches fully fully accessible, requires more effort infact to load/unload a wheelchair
To load a wheelchair requires the following steps
1) The wheelchair passenger remains in the defined seat
2) Using the security end of a carriage key unlock the storage compartment (next to the CCTV panel), this blocks the corridor. Its special CDE ramp normal ramps might not attach correctly since they have'nt got the locating lugs
3) Remove the ramp
4) Exit train
5) Open ramp
6) Slot ramp in place making sure the two lugs attach to the floor plate
7) Load/unload
8) Reverse above proceedure
I've seen some wheelchair passengers unload themselves without a ramp on a DART, not for the faint hearted but still
craigybagel
14-07-2006, 16:45
But at least the wheelchair will get through the door, akbeit with a lot of help from staff, and the user doesnt have to be placed in a taxi as was the case with the cravens.
James Shields
14-07-2006, 16:59
I would have thought in the 21st century we could have come up with something a bit friendlier for mobility impaired users. All kinds of solutions are already in place on busses (though I'm not suggesting we should go as far as kneeling suspensions). Having to wait for a member of staff to deploy a ramp makes a wheelchair user feel like a second class citizen, and the longer that process takes and more hassle it is, the more embarrased they will feel, and the less inclined to travel by train they will be. At least on commuter and DART trains, the ramp is quickly and easily deployed.
Would it be impossible/horrendously expensive to have a ramp that automatically deploys at the push of a button? Failing that, surely we could have a slide-in compartment the ramp could be stored in without having to unlock a cabinet and block the exit.
craigybagel
14-07-2006, 20:12
Seems to me that its as quick to put the ramp up ready for a wheelchair user on the Intercity trains (Cravens excepted) as it is on the suburban user, which isnt very long.
I can't see why a flap can't drop down when the door opens to cover the gap. It could signifigantly overhang the side of the train and would allow for all types of platforms.
It would not only provide easy wheelchair access, but also make it easier to get luggage on and off and remove the whole safety issue of the wide gaps at some stations.
Even on the ICE trains which are pretty much state of the art, wheelchairs have to be lifted in and out using a serious looking lifting contraption at the station. Its time consuming and requires two members of staff or people travelling with the wheelchair user.
Dubpete1
17-07-2006, 23:14
Great fun today! Booked tickets online for return to Limerick (dep Dublin 11.00, Dep Limerick 1730). Got to Heuston nice and early (1020) picked up tickets etc and headed down before 1030 just to be sure. Train was leaving from Platform 7 so had to wait in that strange passage thing they have constructed while they are rebuilding the roof. Hot, Dusty and Crowded and no lights working.
So, we all stand there, 1050 rolls around and no movement. The natives are getting restless. People are trying to pass by the large crowd waiting for the trains (Plat 7 Cork, Plat 8 Waterford) and coming off another train from somewhere. Tempers get frayed. No announcments at all, whatsoever, full stop. We rang Irish Rail information who told us the train was "on time". I squeezed up to the top of the queue in a vain search for an IE employee. Discovered of course that there was no train at the platform at all. Fantastic. Rang Heuston to ask them where the train was...was told in no uncertain terms that they did not know. More anger from passengers and real discomfort.
Elderly passengers have now been stuck in the hot, dusty, cramped passageway for 45 minutes. IE employees appear and go off searching for a train. Eventually at 11.25 a new MkIV set appears on the platform. People for the Waterford train are now panicking thinking they will miss their train. An announcement is finally made on the stations PA system that the trains are delayed and will not leave without the passengers. None of them could hear this of course, because there is no loudspeaker in the aformentioned hot, dusty, cramped passageway.
So, eventually we get to the train, head for coach A with our tickets and wait for the train host to be ready for us. Everyone else mills up the train and of course fills it up. We get to the train host, he looks at our tickets and says "them A's aren't working, you have to find your own seat up the train". Baffling. Myself and my colleague have work to do for a presentation on the way down (thus the whole booking 2 seats together thing). We eventually find two seperate seats at either end of a carriage both facing backwards. Brilliant.
We eventually set off at 11.50. No explanations, no apologies, nothing. Get to Limerick Junction and into Limerick just under 50 minutes late. Hurry to presentation, eventually get back to the station for the 1730.
Lots of room on this one (MkII set). Very very hot. No air conditioning working on the train. Measured the temperature...nearly 40 degrees! Ticket checker checks ticket, gets so hot that ink runs off the ticket! No catering, no announcment there would be none, luckily had a drink which was pretty awful by the time we reached Dublin. Got off the train, poster on the platform said "Whats a queue Daddy?". Fellow passengers guffawed at the irony. €49.50 well spent eh?
Pete
Mark Gleeson
18-07-2006, 08:58
Firstly the roof works were needed, its a 160 year old roof the improvement on station is fantastic its bright and airy. The pa problem has been brought to the attention of IE management, we have heard no change. Why so many off peak trains use P6/7/8 has also been queried, lots of excuses no action
The 17:30 ex Limerick AC was working its just that it can't cope with temperatures above about 27 degrees, most of the Midlands was 29 ish yesterday. Actually switching off the AC in these conditions would cool things down
If you arrived Limerick more than 1 hour late you are entitled to a refund http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/refunds.php#their_fault this still applies even if you missed the connection as a result
The 11:00 Dublin Cork has been causing trouble. Since July 11th it has been rostered for a CDE set, on the 11th the driver refused to take it out claiming he wasn't trained. The set enters service from Dublin so there are no excuses for it to be late. If the train had a fault the old set which is sitting idle would be used
Little point in complaining to IE since you get a shallow apology, should be able to find out exactly what went wrong in a day or so
James Shields
18-07-2006, 09:15
If you arrived Limerick more than 1 hour late you are entitled to a refund
If you booked seats and were unable to sit at the seats you reserved, are you entitled to any refund? His point about specifically booking seats together because they wanted to work on their presentation is significant.
Isn't there also a refund if catering was advertised but not available?
Mark Gleeson
18-07-2006, 09:23
Since you actually got a seat you you have no come back on IE, but can you confirm the electronic gadet wasn't working. Irish rail have screwed up seat res on the 11:00am since there are no standard seats in coach A
Catering refund only applies in first class
Thomas J Stamp
18-07-2006, 10:38
The main point here for the customer is the shamefull behaviour of the IE staff in Heuston. I've posted here before that if roboman (the automatic announcments in the station) says they train to Limerick is at platform 7 and it isnt, the lads in IE will tell you it is because their screens tell them what roboman is telling you, in order words they simply will nnot belive a passanger because you know, we have thing really great urge to mess around with their smooth running rail syaytem.
I'm sorry Mark, but there is no excuse whatsoever to say that the Ac cannot cope wiith over 27 dedrees, if so it should be fixed or replaced to cope with over 27 degrees. It will get over 27 degrees on at least several days every summer, esp in the midlands where virtually all of our trains traverse.
Also, no matter what the state of the old roof in Heuston was and how wonderfull the new one is (and it is i couldnt get over how nice it looked on Sunday) there is no excuse for the bottleneck that exists on the way to platform 7/8/9. That side of the station should have been given priority for completion given the vast amount of people who use it. But then again, it was typical of IE thinking - build extra platforms, build a secondary councourse to cope with all of the people from and to the trains, then fix the roof and close off most of the concourse. Typical.
And, if you have reserved 2 seats on the 11 o clock train to Cork you have reserved two bloody seats. Its not your fault the right train didnt turn up you have reserved two seats and it is not good enough to be told find two yourself, if so what is the point? These lads specificly wanrted two seats facing each other, they didnt get them.
I've been taken to task wondering why the CDE sets will be "trash" after 5 years... i said reservation will be a joke. 5 years? 2 months!!!
Finally, we all know that the one hour rule is a bloody awful joke. It is amost phyisicly impossible for a train to be more than an hour late, and this mans experiance shows exactly why it is there, its sole purpose - the screw the custoner over, sit down shut up, pay your money and feck off.
We are doing a new customer charter, one that will be realistic and fair to passangers, and therefore wont have a hope in hell of being adopted by the company
Mark Gleeson
18-07-2006, 10:49
The AC spec on the 1972 built coaches goes to 27 ish degrees, its life expired and was never the same when the new CFC rules came in and global warming, it can't be fixed, turning it off tends to work best, scrapman is waiting in Inchicore. The MK3 coaches are able to cope with 30+ degrees (32?) and the new CDE coaches should be good into the mid to high 30's
The customer charter can't cope with seat reservations thats the problem if you is offered seat E51 you should get seat E51 problem is this is now and there is no recourse available today
Colm Donoghue
18-07-2006, 11:10
unless you wanted to go to the small claims court, Dubpete1.
People have won against Ryanair and other airlines.
Just read the terms annd conditions.
There is nothing there to excuse IE from providing the service they sold you
i.e. "your seat reservation does not guarrentee ayou a reserved seat" or some sh1te
you entered a contract, IE breached it.
At the least write a letter pointing out that you will be taking a case to the small claims court.
Sale of goods and supply of services won't apply (to transport) but if they give you hassle saying "bylaws yada yada yada" then you can hit them with the EU regulation regarding unfair terms in consumer contracts
Council Directive 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993
The website says to cancel before time of travel but your train was late so by the time you got to where your seat was, this time had passed so this term cannot apply.
for 48cents stick it to them, you could be getting a 200x return
Mark Gleeson
18-07-2006, 11:24
Problem is you got a seat, a seat is a seat now if you didn't get a seat then you have a serious case
Irish Rail are a slimy bunch when it comes to terms and conditions
Thomas J Stamp
18-07-2006, 11:25
The customer charter can't cope with seat reservations thats the problem if you is offered seat E51 you should get seat E51 problem is this is now and there is no recourse available today
Which is why it's useless. That and the biased late arrival times. Why not make it that if the train is 6 hours late we'll give you a free hotel bed in the Great Southern Hotel (doesnt apply if your train gets cancelled, only if its 6 hours late or more) or, if your train is 10 hours late we'll give you a new Ferrarri, presented to you by Dick Fern wearing a nappie. That's how biased it is.
Mark Gleeson
18-07-2006, 11:29
Do I get to go for the star prize?
I know exactly what went wrong with the booking system, we have a contact who I will be in touch with later who hopefully will fix it
Dubpete1
18-07-2006, 11:40
Thanks for the responses lads, much appreciated.
You know the weird thing is that, as much as it annoyed me, I could almost live with the very late train, the ridiculous "reserved seating" fiasco, the lack of announcements, the lack of apologies, the lack of even a drink of water on a train with no air conditioning or catering, the deeply unhelpful phone assistance at Heuston and all the other mad stuff. Not that I accept it, and I will definitely be persuing it, but I can live with it!
The thing I cannot accept though is sending hundreds of people into that passageway and leaving them there for over an hour. I accept of course that the roof repairs are needed but that is no reason whatsoever to compromise passenger safety. And I firmly believe that leaving people in there with no idea what is going on is not safe, particularly on such a hot day like yesterday.
Pete
Mark Gleeson
18-07-2006, 11:46
1) Can't fix the AC problem, DoT refused Irish Rail the funds. Irish Rail did refurbish one set of those coaches and the AC was lovely which highlights the problem
2) Should be able to fix the booking system someone set the booking system incorrectly or wasn't told
3) We have tried in vain to get some kind of change on the P6/7/8 situation, promises no actions, after 9am there is no need to use the secondary platforms
4) We should know shortly what did go on in Heuston
5) Can't find any direct way to screw some cash out of IE
James Shields
18-07-2006, 11:50
I've changed my mind. If IE are unable to provide you with your correct pre-booked seats, you should be entitled to a free upgrade to first class. If seats are not available there, you should be entitled to your money back.
Dubpete1
18-07-2006, 13:45
Just a quick query here...going to write the letter (for what its worth) to Irish Rail. Anybody in particular I should address it to where I might get some response?
Thanks in advance,
Pete
Mark Gleeson
18-07-2006, 13:58
Allegedly there is a new customer service office in Heuston, can't confirm its existance but that said it has staff that I can confirm
Odds on you will get a bull**** response, the last paragraph will contain some yap about investment, who cares you where on the most modern train in the country from the recently rebuilt Heuston station. So be clear about the fact it was the new train that went wrong
This is normally a two pronged game, first port of call is Customer Services, InterCity, Connolly Station, Dublin 1. If you don't hear back within 14 days I have another address which works its more fun to send two letters since they then have to find the first one
And the fact IE have already read this thread means you probably will be dealt with quickly that said expect to be told it didn't happen and you are dreaming
Colm Donoghue
18-07-2006, 15:26
dubpete,
I've seen several IE ads on trains and around stations touting the availability of online seat reservation. sending a pic of this along with your complaint letter and maybe Cc'ing the advertising standards agency might get some satisfaction.
I know P11 got some success with the ASA before re double capacity on DARTS.
Mark Gleeson
18-07-2006, 15:35
IE will blame this on a misunderstanding they are a slimy bunch
No, only that "Customer Service" is , "The Undiscovered Country" :p
Derek Wheeler
18-07-2006, 21:19
Just a quick query here...going to write the letter (for what its worth) to Irish Rail. Anybody in particular I should address it to where I might get some response?
Thanks in advance,
Pete
Pete,
Send it to Barry Kenny in Connolly station. In your letter state the fact that you have contacted P11 and we recommend that you send the complaint directly to him and you expect a decent outcome to what is a very important complaint about the way you were treated. You may quote my name if you wish. Barry reads the board and will now be expecting your letter and I trust he will deal with it in a satisfactory manner. If not, please get back to us. We are snowed under with passenger complaints that go unresolved and until P11 and IE can find some workable system to cooperate on these matters, I fear the shambles will continue.(We are currently taking steps to address this with management and expect more news by the end of the Summer) We still await the new "call centre" that was mentioned by IE management in March. IE enagaging with us should not be seen as a failure, but rather an attempt to recognise representative bodies and project a willingness to address complaints through any means possible.
Get the letter off Pete and don't be afraid to post it here.
Thomas J Stamp
19-07-2006, 09:12
Pete, send it by registered post, give them 14 days to reply, and if they do not let us know, also let us know what they say.
The MK3 7:30pm Cork-Dublin on Sunday was horribly hot.
Seemed the AC was out in at least 50% of the coaches. If you walked along the train some were cool others were just unbarably warm.
Anytime I board a MK3 I arrive early and leave the coach if I can't hear the AC fans running and find one where they are.
Also, our coach's AC seemed to run, then stop then the coach would get really hot.. then it'd clunk back into service again and cool down.
Seems they're controlled by a rather primative thermostat much like a domestic central heating system rather than proper AC system.
BREL's AC spec is just very poor generally. Same with their UK MK3 cousins, dire AC.
Mark Gleeson
21-07-2006, 20:18
As of Monday 24th July the following will be CDE/MK4
7:00, 9:00 Dublin Cork
11:30, 13:30 Cork Dublin
The 11:00 Dublin Cork and 15:30 Cork Dublin returns to MK3 operation
Seat booking is correctly programmed for these trains
There are currently 3 serviceable MK4 sets, 4001/2/3
James Shields
21-07-2006, 20:44
There are currently 3 serviceable MK4 sets, 4001/2/3
So have they managed to panel beat the cow shape out of the front of 4001?
More importantly, any progress on the industrial front?
Mark Gleeson
21-07-2006, 20:48
So have they managed to panel beat the cow shape out of the front of 4001?
4001 was the backup train on the press run, its fixed for several months now, most of the damage was underneath the train
More importantly, any progress on the industrial front?Its not looking good, conflicting reports
Mark Gleeson
24-07-2006, 08:21
The 7:00 Dublin Cork is still a MK3 its just left Mallow
That means yet more seat booking confusion
Derek Wheeler
24-07-2006, 20:27
Industrial relations issues on the Mk4s still relate to "train hosts" and an unresolved issue in the new shed in Cork.
Thats the latest we have.
Mark Gleeson
01-08-2006, 10:12
Its a three fold problem
There are no Cork based train managers so a train can't start the day there
The Cork based staff don't like the new maintenance facilities so a train can't start the day there
All the technical staff seem to be Dublin based and a small team seem to travel on each and every train to babysit it
4 sets have now been accepted by Iarnrod Eireann from CAF, only 2 are in service (they rotate) and each manages only 330 miles a day, the old coaches manage 500 with ease
As of Monday 10 of the 16 departures could be covered by the new fleet, only 4 are due to the ongoing industrial relations mess
sandraoh
08-08-2006, 15:59
I caught the 15:52 service from Mallow to Portlaoise yesterday after a lovely weekend in tralee. Here is my experience.
I was delighted to see the nice new train pull up as I had never experienced a journey on one since they entered service.
We got on the train and it was nicely air conditioned and even through a huge number of people boarded at Mallow we managed to get seats together.
Once the journey began the nice robotic man started his announcement as gaelige about moving bags off seats etc. It didn't mention anything about stopping in Portlaoise and the English annoucement was the same. I went to have a look at the electronic journey planner thingy and it didn't include Portlaoise either. I wandered down the train and found not one but 2 ticket checker people sitting with their feet up and I asked them what the story was, they told me that "it should be yeah" when I asked if the train was stopping in Portlaoise.
I then wandered off to try and find the dining car. I have to say it was a very rough ride and I must have appeared drunk to all of the passengers that I fell on as I tried to make my way through the train. I was thrown from side to side quite roughly in patches. When I got to the dining car there was an enormous queue and no wonder as tweedle dum and tweedle dee were working behind the counter. Only one was serving, the other appeared to be working the till or checking what was in stock when the other shouted back. They mustn't have understood me when I asked for 2 ribena drinks as I was handed 2 packets of fruit pastilles instead. I finally got what I wanted by using hand gestures and a lot of pointing.
After a very rocky journey it was announced that we would be stopping in portlaoise, next station is portlaoise. This was before we had even passed through Ballybrophey! Lots of people stood up in order to alight and were left being thrown around by the doors for a good 20 minutes.
By the time we arrived in Portlaoise I was seasick from rocking around so much and the electronic journey display thing said we had already passed through Portarlington and was almost in Monasterevan.
Can the do anything about the horrible motion sickness problem. Vomits per mile statistics should be made available. I wouldn't like to be feeling a little hungover or suffering from morning sickness!
Mark Gleeson
08-08-2006, 16:32
Since day one we have had talk of werid suspension problems on day 0 May 22nd we all piled on for a trip to Thurles and it was pretty good, very good
On July 10th we went to Cork on the press run and it got quite giddy on the way back it got entertaining to say the least I was in liquid lunch mode so the ride was the last thing on our minds but it was bad bad enough for the catering staff to complain when pouring the wine
I made a trip July 27th and due to a suspension fault the train crawled along at 60mph and even then it was bumpy
The grapevine is alive with talk of what is going on some blame the train some blame the track some blame the locomotive next thing they will blame the phases of the moon. I could go knee deep into technical blurb but there is no need
The onboard systems give trouble possible the PIS was not programmed for a bank holiday thence the confusion, current issue is they don't do reboots of the computer while in motion since it takes everything off, computer is not needed for the train to move
A word from the wise, there is a recognised medical condition which may trigger nausea, travel sickness etc
1) Travel back to direction of travel
2) Low frequency vibration transmitted through body, a given on a 23m long coach with bad suspension
3) High speed corners the illusion of tilt by banking combined with eyes and ears getting confused by seeing the corner and not feeling it can lead to it
Normally this only applies on perfect compensation tilting trains i.e. the one British Rail had in the 1980's they worked out it made people sick since the mind got confused signals
Derek Wheeler
08-08-2006, 20:09
A word from the wise, there is a recognised medical condition which may trigger nausea, travel sickness etc
1) Travel back to direction of travel
2) Low frequency vibration transmitted through body, a given on a 23m long coach with bad suspension
3) High speed corners the illusion of tilt by banking combined with eyes and ears getting confused by seeing the corner and not feeling it can lead to it
Normally this only applies on perfect compensation tilting trains i.e. the one British Rail had in the 1980's they worked out it made people sick since the mind got confused signals
I thought you said you weren't going to get technical.:D
Thanks for the feedback Sandra. Rumour mill has been in overdrive today. Journalists called me about this. Apparently some or all MK4 sets were being sent back to Spain for modification due to computer problems and suspension. I spoke to an IE representative today and it was denied. Last set is being shipped from Spain next month and suspension problems are being resolved here.
Mark Gleeson
08-08-2006, 20:16
Its a medical condition its going to be technical, RAF navgators in a certain jet fighter faced the wrong way around had serious flight sickness problems
If you do feel unwell facing the destination can help
Thomas J Stamp
08-08-2006, 22:32
I'm very sorry to hear what happend to Sandra but you know... pis not working, lousey suspension....reminds me of when I predicted that somewhow IE would feck up these trains.
Apparently some or all MK4 sets were being sent back to Spain for modification due to computer problems and suspension.
God dammit!!! I said they's be clapped out in 5 years not three months!!!!
Mark Gleeson
08-08-2006, 22:44
They are not going back, when the suspension is good its good when its bad its very bad
Clearly they're still playing with it at the moment. I've had totally different experiences on different trains. One was totally comparable to the MK3, one was pretty "hard" and a the others have been in between.
I assume someone's got a spanner out in inchicore and is tweaking things...
sandraoh
10-08-2006, 08:48
[QUOTE=Mark Gleeson]
1) Travel back to direction of travel
2) Low frequency vibration transmitted through body, a given on a 23m long coach with bad suspension
3) High speed corners the illusion of tilt by banking combined with eyes and ears getting confused by seeing the corner and not feeling it can lead to it
/QUOTE]
I travel on trains every day and don't get travel sick. Unless they are goin to make all seats face in the direction of travel, they still have a problem
Mark Gleeson
10-08-2006, 09:17
They are just conditions which make you more likely to feel unwell, it doesn't effect most people, it is a characteristic of the train itself
Its a case of eliminating possibles this way if we can isolate the exact cause we can get two results
1) Get it fixed
2) Get sick bags
Clearly the PR value for us out of 2 is immense
Thomas J Stamp
10-08-2006, 20:46
it is a characteristic of the train itself
Perhaps the staff at Alton Towers should look at it, as opposed to Inchicore.
James Shields
19-08-2006, 23:59
Its a case of eliminating possibles this way if we can isolate the exact cause we can get two results
1) Get it fixed
2) Get sick bags
Clearly the PR value for us out of 2 is immense
Well, from our trip on the first public run of 4002, we know that 1 is possible. Any reason why they can't get out the spanners out and sort out the rest of them?
I suspect that they're working on them. There are still CAF personnel on the CDE monitoring the situation. So, I can only assume that tweaks are on-going.
Is there any possibility that this is also partly why the rollout of the new stock is so slow? Trade union issues aside, it does seem like something worth sorting out before the entire batch goes into commercial service.
Mark Gleeson
21-08-2006, 09:02
No its a staffing/union/maintenance issue
The plans was one set to enter service every 4-5 weeks which has been followed
May 22 4002 ( was to be May 15th but we had a pointless strike instead)
June ?? 4003
July 12 4001 (was to be July 11th but staffing issues blocked it)
Aug ?? 4004
Based on that 3 sets could be in service covering 9 trips per day but due to the train manager dispute there now aren't enough of them available, the staff in Cork refuse to maintain the trains owing to some werid dispute about the new facilities
There are CAF people on the trains, most of us have seen them by now thats fairly standard the Tokyu Car crew did that on the DART for a while, to be honest there is little they can do if it breaks as I have found out.
The first day now clearly shows all the signs of over tuning, now admittedly we did cheat by sitting in the best positioned seats. IE knew everyone would be out on day one it had to be right and we bought it but even then we knew there was something funny going on. Numerous theories going around but there is one and only one part on a train that wears quick enough to cause the ride to go crazy, the wheels, 5 weeks at 2 trips per day 6 days a week is 10,000 miles more than enough to wear the profiles
I have the advantage of a 60mph run from Thurles and you notice a funny kind of stabilty it should be perfect but it feels like its doing something underneath you ride seems fine but its fighting it and that kind of speed it shouldn't, there are in fact 3 different issues
1) The busy ride indicates a low level stabilty issue => wheels
2) The excessive weaving you get implies a transfer of ride imperfections between coaches => rigid couplings
3) It feels too heavy => secondary suspension is too hard
I'll send my bill to CAF for consultation services :D
ACustomer
21-08-2006, 10:41
It seems that the slow progress in adjusting the suspension has masked the Industrial Relations problem. It looks like there will have to be another strike like last May to get people off their high horses and get things sorted out in Cork. Either that or some really stern stuff from Government (some hope!).
Any hope of a better way out of this? (short of firing lots of people on bith sides, which isn't realistic, much as one might like it).
Mark Gleeson
21-08-2006, 11:05
I'm fairly confident that if you plonked a MK4 on euro standard track without a 201 class lump on the back its ride would be euro standard firm perfectly acceptable
Problem is in the old days there was no warranty if you wanted to take a lump hammer to the suspension to fix a problem no one cared. If any parameter is placed outside the design spec CAF will say warranty void
The three problems are inter-linked, if you sort the busyness then the ride will clean up thus the weaving will reduce
Engineering is engineering you can't mask a fault since there are people like myself who will spot the different hum or vibration the industrial relations people can hide/lie/manipulate as required each side has there own story which rarely matches what the other guy said
So if IE says we need time for further testing you know it really means we got a staff problem
As I understand the 7am Dublin Cork and 11:30 Cork Dublin will be the next to go over, the seat booking system seems to think its a MK4 already but its not, that is a staff issue
Hmm ... looks like we can say ... another glorious !*@# up by Irish Rail.
Mark Gleeson
21-08-2006, 13:56
You have no idea how bad it really is Sean
I'm waiting for the multi way blame game to go public, CAF will blame IE, IE will blame CAF, unions will blame IE, IE will blame unions. Needless to say what appears here is only the tip of the iceberg we can't verify much of what we hear some of it is crazy
Anyone from IE reading will know what I mean when I say there is a missing button on the coach control panel its got 2 off buttons but only 1 on, but thats not CAF's fault since its got nothing to do with them. I'd love to shoot whoever missed it at design stage in 1993 yes 1993
Derek Wheeler
21-08-2006, 21:16
Marks quote about "2 off buttons and 1 on button" is off course about the parking brake on the new MK 4s. (note to Mod, this thread is getting too technical for this section, but I'll finish anyway.)
The 201 class loco that works the MK4s has an "off switch" for the parking brake. It, apparently does not have an "on switch". Therefore, drivers have to walk back to the DVT ( driving bit at the other end) to activate the parking brake.
This is, (again, apparently) one of a few problems between the 201 loco and the MK4 sets. Other problems relayed to P11, include a difference in brake pressure. IE blame the drivers, CAF blame the locos, I blame IE engineers, who think they're still building steam locos in inchicore and management for not doing what they are paid to do, which is manage ALL ASPECTS of the company. Furthermore, one can feel sorry that these new carraiges actually mean nothing, with a 10 year old "freight" loco (thats what it is) at one end.
Maybe IE still think they're managing a company in decline and thats why they continuously salvage "old bits" to work with "new bits." Just think about the 1989 "revolution" that saw "adapted" MK3s working commuter routes with 25 year + 121 class locos!! (IRN might like them, but they're crap, outdated, ugly and surplus to requirements.) We can blame the Government for the "unique" pairing in 1989,(and the resultant UK enthuasiast dedication to keeping them "in service" till the death) as they refused funding for actual railcars. But the pairing of 201s with the MK4s was a decision made by IE and not based on funding.
The financial/investment facts speak for themselves.
Another note to MOD. Move technical aspects of this thread to Infrastructure and link it. Sorry lads.
Thomas J Stamp
21-08-2006, 22:26
Having just read Dereks and Mark's highly technical critique of the incompatiability issues vis a vis your actual 201 class loco and the CAF coached i would like to introduce some balance to this here debate.
The 201 locos look very nice in their new livery when they are attached to the new CDE carraiges. Except when they're the orange ones.
Dammit!!!
To be fair to IE management, wern't the CAF coaches ordered *BEFORE* the government loosened the purse strings on the public transport budget?
Clearly they were a shoe-string "upgradable" sollution.
What needs to be done is to keep pressure on IE and the Govt to actually use these coaches to their full potential i.e. with powercars.
You're not talking MASSIVE investment and it would impact on journey times, even without the huge track upgrades as it would improve accelleration and make use of any new 200km/h stretches that do get built as soon as they're available. It would also reduce track wear, which is a huge problem with the 201s.
Personally, I think long term high speed use of the 201s is a false economy. It will just do more damage to the rails.
I've no problem with them hauling the odd match special etc.. but they shouldn't be in regular use!
Perhaps the surplus of them could be modified to international gauge and sold off?
I'm sure someone would buy them as frieght locos.
Let CAF finish the trains by providing the matching power cars...
The MK3 project was the same.. why didn't we buy the full HST ?
You're talking about a handful of powercars, not exactly a monumental spend! and they're only 200km/h .. hardly THAT high tech in 2006
On top of that, new engines, new fuel options, more efficiency .. lower CO2 output...
Even at 160km/h power cars make ABSOLUTE sense!
The technology's easily available e.g. the new MTU and Paxman engines going into the HST fleet in the UK... Could be easily put into a powercar for the CDE or the Enterprise.
Thomas J Stamp
22-08-2006, 09:57
Mr X is correct. You do wonder sometimes about how these decisions are arrived at. Could the costs of two power cars be that huge?
Well, I have decided to find out. I've just e-mailed CAF and asked them what locos they would suggest and how much they are.
I'll keep you posted as to the results.
Mark Gleeson
27-08-2006, 19:49
Word is we will be seeing a lot more MK4 trains sometime this week, the seat reservation system is offering MK4 seating layouts on nearly all trains
Its all dependent on trains starting from Cork, we await
Derek Wheeler
27-08-2006, 20:14
Yep. We await. Apparently MK4 sets(by 2) are being sent to Cork on Tuesday and are expected to run services ex Cork on Wednesday. This would be a minor breakthrough since the carraiges are in the country up to a year.;)
Ah hell, Im cynical just because the Dubs were beaten. C'mon Cork!
Mark Gleeson
31-08-2006, 08:55
Latest info indicated the following trains where operated by the new MK4 coaches this morning
5:30 Cork Dublin
9:30 Cork Dublin
We await confirmation of this long promised change its been put off several times
Derek Wheeler
31-08-2006, 19:42
I received this info this morning, but can't confirm with visible proof. The next 24 hrs tell all.
sandraoh
01-09-2006, 14:25
Latest info indicated the following trains where operated by the new MK4 coaches this morning
5:30 Cork Dublin
9:30 Cork Dublin
We await confirmation of this long promised change its been put off several times
I was on the 07:24 from Portlaoise yesterday which assume was the 05:30 and it was a new train also this morning the 07:24 was a new train. On Wednesday evening the 7pm to Portlaoise was a new train (but VERY delayed) and last night the 9pm was a new train although the dining car service was from the staff entrance because they couldn't open the padlock on the shutters....
Mark Gleeson
01-09-2006, 15:38
This confirms our info, as such the following trains should be run by the MK4 sets effective immediately
From Cork
5:30, 9:30, 13:30, 15:30, 19:30
From Dublin
9:00, 11:00, 15:00, 19:00, 21:00
Citygold services remain on the old MK3 sets
From Cork
7:00, 11:30, 17:30
From Dublin
7:00, 13:00, 17:00
As a result of this it is likely that the following trains will be upgraded to MK3 operation, 9:10 Dublin Galway and return, 9:50 Dublin Limerick and return, in the evening either the 17:55 or 19:05 to Galway will swap as will the 17:30 to Limerick. It also means no more cravens in service apart from Ballina
Mark Gleeson
01-09-2006, 15:57
We have been told that there have been numerous incidents of trains leaving Dublin in the morning with toilets locked out of use since no one could be bothered to empty the tanks. When you consider the new trains spend less than half the day in service surely someone could empty the tanks
The tank level is indicated on the coach control panel top left, I've seen it show more than half full when entering service which isn't on
We will be out on the ground on Saturday just hope the suspension is better since it was fairly rotten last few times
Colm Donoghue
04-09-2006, 12:55
A lad I work with travels to Heuston from Portlaoise.
I was asking him if he got the new train this morning,
his answer: "No but I got it there one day last week. Nice Jacks, still bumpy as ever. And the tables are well smaller too. Ah I suppose it looks nice but it's the same really. Aircon works too, now that its turning to winter and all!"
Mark Gleeson
04-09-2006, 13:11
The space seat to seat is the same the table is smaller, I measured, upside is you can get in and out a lot easier
The AC isn't what it used to be it lacks that wonderful chrisp feeling it had back in May
Ride is ****e and I mean that I've been on a DART at 60mph and had a smoother ride that this yoke, if IE are reading don't forget RSC 6.6.2.1 it shouldn't make the passengers feel ill
sandraoh
04-09-2006, 14:09
A lad I work with travels to Heuston from Portlaoise.
I was asking him if he got the new train this morning,
his answer: "No but I got it there one day last week. Nice Jacks, still bumpy as ever. And the tables are well smaller too. Ah I suppose it looks nice but it's the same really. Aircon works too, now that its turning to winter and all!"
He probably didn't get the new train this morning because the 0741 left before the 0724.... The new train seems to be late all the time
Oh dear.
My first trip on the new train today (15:30 from Cork, got on at Mallow as was travelling from Tralee), and there are bits falling off on my carriage...
275
sorry for the grainy picture, it's one of the light fittings on the ceiling. With all the swaying I really thought it was going to fall off at one point...
Not really much to add to all the posts here but just to say that the ride was worst between Mallow and Limerick Junction, but it may just be that we were going fastest on that section
As a result of this it is likely that the following trains will be upgraded to MK3 operation, 9:10 Dublin Galway and return, 9:50 Dublin Limerick and return, in the evening either the 17:55 or 19:05 to Galway will swap as will the 17:30 to Limerick. It also means no more cravens in service apart from Ballina
Is a "craven" the same as a "slam door." One of these dinosaurs leaves Galway at 0530ish, goes back at 11:10 and returns to Dublin at 15:00 to be the 19:10 that you all love and cherish. I am going out to have a pint to celebrate the day they dump that.
I thought the old cork trains were being used to increase the frequency on other lines?
Mark Gleeson
04-09-2006, 17:35
I'll take money on that being coaches 4101-4105 the ones that hit the cow, the light fittings came off in some coaches, I recognise the head.......
If you where lucky to find a 100mph capable train Charleville area is full flat out, enjoy the stop in Charleville that isn't in the timetable ?
5:30 ex Galway should be a MK2d with added rust, the cravens are more or less gone now (narrower door, and openable windows) it should be MK3 shortly
Edit: Given the 15:30 arrives 18:25 how did Thomas post at 17:54?, twas the 13:30 me thinks
Oh dear.
My first trip on the new train today (15:30 from Cork, got on at Mallow as was travelling from Tralee), and there are bits falling off on my carriage...
275
sorry for the grainy picture, it's one of the light fittings on the ceiling. With all the swaying I really thought it was going to fall off at one point...
Not really much to add to all the posts here but just to say that the ride was worst between Mallow and Limerick Junction, but it may just be that we were going fastest on that section
£@#%ing hell, the Mk2d are in better shape than that :mad:
Oisin88, there are two types of "slam door" coach sets on the network at the moment.
The first is the Craven coaches. These date from the 1960s and feature openable windows (no aircon) and are accompanied by a decrepit looking guards van dating from the 1950s.
The second, and more common, are Mk2d (Mark 2 series, version D) coaches that on the outside look similar to the Mk3, featuring sealed windows and matching generator vans. The Mk2d coaches were made in 1972.
Both types of slam door trains can be quickly identified by their black roofs.
Mark Gleeson
05-09-2006, 13:54
The 13:30 Cork Dublin suffered a suspension failure yesterday and travelled back at 60mph, second confirmed occassion that this has occured
Still awaiting confirmation of the exact fault
Eh?
That's the one I was on. (yes I know I said 15:30 in post above, was confused).
Train wasn't late anyway...
5:30 ex Galway should be a MK2d with added rust, the cravens are more or less gone now (narrower door, and openable windows) it should be MK3 shortly
Mk3 has arrived!!!! weyhey. Todays 15:00 was a Mk3. The Mk2D slam doors are gone!
Derek Wheeler
05-09-2006, 22:13
FEEL THE LOVE EVERYBODY!!
The Mk2D slam doors are gone!
Could we (the Sligo line) have them? :o
sandraoh
06-09-2006, 12:15
I was talking to some people on the train this morning about the new trains. Vomit Comet was the name that came up. I like it. Can it be the new official name unitl they fix the suspension?
Mark Gleeson
06-09-2006, 12:28
I've been using it for weeks :eek:
I'm looking into avenues to force IE into corner
Its a real pity since myself and Derek know the ride can be really good
I was talking to some people on the train this morning about the new trains. Vomit Comet was the name that came up. I like it. Can it be the new official name unitl they fix the suspension?
welcome to my world :mad:
Mark Gleeson
06-09-2006, 14:23
Sandra are you still getting the travel sickness effect?
We have confirmed sets 4002 and 4003 have the werid ride (been on both), no word on 4001 or 4004
If people do experience an unpleasant ride it would be helpful to know the number of any of the coaches involved so we can keep an eye on things, broken toilets, loose fittings etc
Thomas J Stamp
06-09-2006, 14:46
As some of the toilets on the Vomit Comet dont work because the underfloor septic tank is full, and as you cannot open the windows, please fell free to ask for sickbags when you see the ticket checker, or register your complaint by spewing on the floor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oisin88
The Mk2D slam doors are gone!
Could we (the Sligo line) have them?
You most certainly can. Not the rest of the train, just the doors. Thats an upgrade.
Derek Wheeler
06-09-2006, 15:04
As some of the toilets on the Vomit Comet dont work because the underfloor septic tank is full, and as you cannot open the windows, please fell free to ask for sickbags when you see the ticket checker, or register your complaint by spewing on the floor.
I know a guy in the sick bag business. What a marketing opportunity.
sandraoh
06-09-2006, 15:06
Vomit Comet is still there. I'll keep an eye out about numbers.
Mark Gleeson
06-09-2006, 15:13
My only advice is to stick with coach E, third from the Cork end, its far enough away from either end to avoid the seriously werid ride, sit in the middle of the coach.
Avoid the last coach next the locomotive since it vibrates and that is a trigger for travel sickness if you are travelling the wrong way around.
First class is really strange I'm told
Derek Wheeler
06-09-2006, 15:26
The Shortts 360s that Aer Lingus had many years ago were also known as Vomit comets and for the same reason. Up,down, side to side and lots of vibration.
The black hole rollercoaster in Alton Towers is more comfortable than these trains and I think we are all perfectly right to be critical. This is the 21st century and new trains should reflect that. Where it will end is really up in the air.
sandraoh
06-09-2006, 15:27
If they blamed the lack of sickbags on the train for the unofficial strikes I might agree with them....
sandraoh
07-09-2006, 08:57
OK. I was on the 4004 today and i was being bashed violently from side to side as I made my way to dining car.
Also has the nicest ticket checker ever. Do they do an award for ticket checker of the year?
It's odd though some of the sets still seem to ride OK ish
They need to iron this out very fast or it'll be lousey PR.
Mark Gleeson
07-09-2006, 15:06
It rides much better Dublin Cork than Cork Dublin, the real test is the embankment about Mp58, its in a curve in open country, there is a lovely lurch as you go through at 80-90mph even the MK3 picks it up but its interesting in a MK4 in both directions.
Set 4002 had a very decent ride for a while but its lost it now, still better than the rest, 4003 is fairly scary and not practical, I can't type or write on it, I can on a MK3 and MK2
ACustomer
07-09-2006, 15:24
What you imply is that the ride is better when the loco is pulling the train rather than pushing it. Could it be something to do with the connections between coaches being under compression? If that is so then the problem in the Cork-Dublin direction should be at its worst in the coaches at the rear.
MP 58 is in the Portlaoise-Ballybrophy section, just 1.5 miles before Mountrath. Last time I looked at a map this section was virtually straight, and any curves are very gradual. So there must be some serious wet spot or other track defect at MP 58.
Is this shaping up to be a major design fault on the part of CAF, given that the Mk 4s are supposed to be good for 125 mph? When will the blame game start?
Mark Gleeson
07-09-2006, 15:36
What you imply is that the ride is better when the loco is pulling the train rather than pushing it. Could it be something to do with the connections between coaches being under compression? If that is so then the problem in the Cork-Dublin direction should be at its worst in the coaches at the rear.Its bad at the back but its also bad at the front since its like a snake and the 201 is on the back, the first class coach is said to be the worst. The couplings are rigid so compression/tension makes no difference, the research says it should feel no different. That fact they are rigid means if coach A feels a bump coach B gets it as well
P 58 is in the Portlaoise-Ballybrophy section, just 1.5 miles before Mountrath. Last time I looked at a map this section was virtually straight, and any curves are very gradual. So there must be some serious wet spot or other track defect at MP 58. Its there alright http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Dublin,+Ireland&ie=UTF8&z=14&ll=52.941501,-7.517223&spn=0.024776,0.086517&t=h&om=1
Its a curve hard to miss it embankment is rough stones with a access road running parrallel, don't think its a wet spot just a alignment issue possibly the embankment itself
Is this shaping up to be a major design fault on the part of CAF, given that the Mk 4s are supposed to be good for 125 mph? When will the blame game start?Already has
Two questions come to mind:
How much blame should be laid on CAF for this?
Is it fixable?
seamus kilcock
08-09-2006, 07:56
I find it hard to understand why there is so much criticism of the Mark IV ride.
I want to try it for myself.
Kildare is my nearest station.
What Mark IV services stop at Kildare?
Will report back.
Mark Gleeson
08-09-2006, 08:09
9:30 Kildare Cork
11:49 Kildare Dublin
17:35 Kildare Dublin
21:28 Kildare Cork
Dublin bound isn't much fun since a flat out run can't be expected, but through Newbridge Dublin bound is shaky
Its not just us, Irish Rail management admit the ride is bad but insist improvements are coming, its got worse not better
sandraoh
08-09-2006, 08:51
I caught the 4001 today from Portlaoise at 7:24. I almost missed it as it pulled in as we were parking and it was actually on time for once. I imagine a good few people missed it this morning! Anyhow the ride didn't seem so bad except why I was writing around Kildare for about 10 mins my writing was impeded greatly and at some stages I couldn't even get my pen to connect with the page. I didn't feel sea sick though and I was sitting in carriage E so maybe that was why?
Edit: I forgot to mention that the train stopped in Clondalkin for a few minutes and then in CHerry Orchard where we were told that a locomotive had failed ahead of us on the track. We arrived 17 minutes late.
Kildare Commuter
08-09-2006, 09:21
I know this is a bit technical for this board but one of the problems in the "push" mode of this train is that the loco only seems to use the Buck-eye coupler (I stand to be corrected) to connect to the end coach.
In other systems, the use of buffers and a 'rubbing plate' would soften the interaction between coach and engine. There don't seem to be buffers or plate on the CAF and no rubbing plate on the loco (Not strictly required, note Mk3 Push Pulls)
Mark Gleeson
08-09-2006, 09:43
Thats not an issue, you need a rubbing plate when you have a screw coupling or else you get a nasty bump moving off is push or the funny sound in pull when everything goes into tension
The pull away is perfectly smooth, a lot smoother than a MK3 no bumps or lurches
The issue is the train is rigid coupled so when a coach hits a bump it transfers its instabilty through the other coaches since the coupler has a very limited degree of freedom. With a screw coupling in pull its got freedom in 2D so the vibration and hunting isn't transmitted through the train.
British Rail had the same problem with there MK4 and simply added a damper between coupler and body to reduce the effects of adjecent coaches, it worked a threat
Why do I strongly suspect that it's a CAF intercity 125 type train which ought to have a powercar at either end?
It clearly behaves oddly when pushed... it seems like it ought to be being pushed and pulled.
I travelled on a MK3 push-pull in push from Cork a few months ago and to be quite honest the ride was weird too. It wasn't dire, but it was far far worse than a normal MK3 in pull mode.
At the very least could IE orientate the trains so that 50% of them pull from Cork rather than having them all jumpy from Cork?
Also,
which trains are now CAF and which are BREL MK3 ? timetable wise.
(I've been away)
Mark Gleeson
08-09-2006, 09:57
At the very least could IE orientate the trains so that 50% of them pull from Cork rather than having them all jumpy from Cork? (pending a resolution)
The train faces the way it does for solid operational reasons, think about replacing the locomotive at Cork, Dublin Heuston, Dublin Connolly and Belfast and then think about where the locomotive will be parked with respect to the shed roof, its one of the few intelligent things IE have done
The ride varies dependent on the coach you are in more than anything else
Colm Donoghue
08-09-2006, 12:49
I would have thought the pointy end is where it is for PR reasons too.
Regarding Cork/Dublin service and vice versa are there specific services that have the MK4 equipment?
Thanks
Mark Gleeson
09-09-2006, 10:37
Ex Dublin
9:00, 11:00, 19:00 and 19:00
Ex Cork
5:30, 9:30, 13:30 and 15:30
It is expected that the
15:00 ex Dublin and 19:30 ex Cork will switch shortly
Sets 4001/2/3/4 in service, the ride in 4003 will make you feel ill
All 67 coaches have been delivered
Principle hold up is lack of train managers due to a long running industrial relations issue which while resolved means there is a serious backlog
Sets 4001/2/3/4 in service, the ride in 4003 will make you feel ill
Is there any way of knowing which sets will be on which service. For example, I have tickets booked on the 19:00 to Cork on a Friday, and I don't like getting travel sick...
Mark Gleeson
10-09-2006, 17:22
No idea, but since you are booked you are in coach c so you miss most of the fun, 4003 is the worst
Sundays
12:00 ex Dublin
12:30 ex Cork
At least 2 more not sure of times
Mark Gleeson
11-09-2006, 08:47
So yet another trip yesterday, 12:30 Cork Dublin
Seat reservations didn't work, the electronic maps where not working, coach E thought it was going to Cork, ride was the worst I've ever experienced. Upside it was the first train on the Dublin Cork line that I've been on in 3 months that was actually ontime
We are making this easy for Irish Rail, you think given 36 hours notice of which trains I'd be on they might make an effort to get it right but no. I'm tired of excuses, one thing is clear everything that has gone wrong is totally within Irish Rails control
I've been on a few services that were in ridiculously early. The last train from Cork on a sunday night usually.
How bad was the ride? What was wrong with it in your opinion?
Operation shock and awe commenced yesterday in Irish rail as they entered the 21st century.
The blustery winds of change that blow through the crumbling and construction site of Heustons older walls (open to viewing by public, looks like a kip) and the Victorian hay-barn that is Kent station in Cork, caused the first ever glimmerings of efficiency to appear.
Got the 7am train to Dublin and had prebooked the seat. When I got to the train a brightly yellow t shirted marketing maiden checked my reservation and escorted me to my seat! She even managed to politely shoo away a few stroppy suits and random members of public that ignored all the signs that said Pre Booked Seats. Apart from it not being one of the still-not-yet-running-and-years-waiting-new trains and of course the obligatory 5 min stupid and idiotic wait in mallow for the kerry train that was late, it was a grand journey.
To my surprise, on the return journey at 3pm, there was not 1 but 3 marketing maidens escorting people to their seats! I can only imagine that not being permanent staff has resulted in them being far too enthusiastic for their jobs. Still, other than the fact that the intercom was busted then fixed and turned up so high that aremy deafness claims would be put on hold while rail passengers submitted their claims and an inexplicable 5 minute stop just before Limerick junction and the train not being one of the new ones, it was grand.
A mere 4/5 years after internet booking has become de rigeur, we now have it for the trains!! At last, keep it going now lads. (Cant picture long serving union members wearing the yellow t shirts once the girls go back to college………..)
Mark Gleeson
13-09-2006, 09:48
I got the 15:00 ex Dublin on Saturday and there was no one to help me find my seat, fact was when I found it in coach C there was no seat reservation card, second time that has happened
I was on the 19:30 Cork-Dublin service set 4100 and the ride was fine. It was certainly no worse than a MK3 and certainly drastically quieter. No creaks, bumps, noise generally.
The train was full leaving Cork and there were some people standing after Limerick Junciton and Thurles but the train manager, to his credit, made announcements asking people to clear bags out of the way and walked along the train getting people seats.
There was however, a bit of a glitch with the internal doors in our coach (4103). They remained locked open for the entire trip, which to be honest wasn't that bad as the gangways between the coaches are pretty silent in comparison to a MK3, but on arrival at heuston one of the doors had jammed 1/3rd way open and wouldn't move. Several people had to struggle past it with heavy bags.
I'm not sure if the doors had failed or were simply switched off. Also one of the external doors wouldn't open. The door button lights were off and it wouldn't repsond when pressed.
The PIS announcements worked perfectly and were supplemented with local announcements to re-itterate changes etc.
However, in our coach and only our coach, the scrolling displays were not on. The maps were though.
Also, just as a point. Why does the PIS display "Saisuin Heuston" and say "Staisuin Heuston" in Irish and not make any mention of Baile Atha Cliath. It says DUBLIN HEUSTON in English.
The main jist of the message should be "DUBLIN" wheather or not it's heuston is really not all that big a deal particularly as the train doesn't serve any other Dublin station on its route.
Overall though, I didn't find the ride particularly bad at all. The MK3s can be as bumpy, I think it's largely down to poor track.
Well, Irish Rail is probably only doing PIS in Gaeilge at all to stay in compliance with the law and avoiding the weight of the Shinners and rest of the linguistic fascist brigade down on their necks. I mean, seriously, who's going to understand "Balie Atha Cliath" that DOESN'T understand "Dublin?"
Very, very, very few would be my guess.
Personally, I wish that people would get a bit realistic about the Irish Language and start pumping money into areas that might actually encourage its use rather than trying to shove it down people's throats, a method that has clearly failed misearably, but that would be going rather far off topic.
"Lana Bus" and "Lana Tram" have to be the best examples of this. Not only do they fly in the face of proper bilingualism but they also use a crude gaelicisation of the English word "lane".
Fair enough if they were in the Gaeltacht, but they're mostly in central Dublin and Cork.
The mistranslation was only a minor issue with the CDE though. I was more concerned with the doors, or at least the fact that they seemed to be switched off at the coach ends.
My observation over the last few years has been that the ride in general on the Cork line has taken a nose dive. The MK3 ride on large sections of the line is not very good anymore. The CDE ride was flawless on smooth sections of track, I would reckon even smoother than the MK3 as the suspension seems to be much less noisey and the insulation of the coach is much heavier. The train just moves along silently without all of the creaks and groans associated with the MK3 sets.
Perhaps the suspsension on the set that I was on last night has been adjusted to cope better with Irish tracks, but overall the ride wasn't bad. It even seemed to handle the really bumpy bits, e.g. a track switch to platform 6 at Heuston with considerably more grace than a MK3 set would.
If the ride either "improves with age" as the wheel profile starts to wear in to the tracks / suspension's tweaked etc they should be nice trains. The passengers in general seem quite impressed.
The major issues that most passengers have are not perhaps with the finer points of the ride quality but rather with the lack of services and modern facilities on the MK3 coaches which are firmly stuck in the early 1980s and their 1970s interior design concepts are certainly showing their age. While, yes, they could be refurbished, that's highly unlikely to happen. People are shallow, they're impressed by PIS, snazzy interiors, etc etc.. The seats are vastly superior to the MK3 too. They're not as deeply sprung but they seem to have genuine ergonomic design the MK3 seats seem to have been designed simply to look a certain way with no thought put into how they might interact with someone's back. If you're tall an MK3 seat is torture after 3 hours as they force your back into a totally unnatural and uncomfortable position by allowing your lumbar region to curve outwards while the bottom of the headrest hits you in the shoulder-blades just to make the position even worse. The CDE seat overall is a lot more comfortable for a long journey. Also the handrests lift out of the way making it much easier to get in and out of the seats and opening up the possibility of spreading yourself across two seats on a quieter train.
Mark Gleeson
18-09-2006, 08:49
Well, Irish Rail is probably only doing PIS in Gaeilge at all to stay in compliance with the law and avoiding the weight of the Shinners and rest of the linguistic fascist brigade down on their necks. I mean, seriously, who's going to understand "Balie Atha Cliath" that DOESN'T understand "Dublin?"
Very, very, very few would be my guess.
As has been pointed out before under the transport act Iarnrod Eireann are required to provide everything in Irish. Having travelled several times on the Mk4 trains I can find nothing wrong with the Irish announcements they are clear and correct. The correct name of the station is Heuston station, not Dublin Heuston, thus Heuston Station Dublin would be correct. The Irish version is correct
This is not the forum to express a personal grudge or dislike about the Irish language, take it up with your TD or go elsewhere, continuing on this line of discussion will risk a ban
The interesting PIS glitch though was the lack of scrolling displays in one coach + the fact that it didn't seem to announce the connecting services at Limerick Junction, Mallow etc. Rather just "we are now approaching mallow" type announcements.
Connections rather being announced by the train manager.
The only mistake was "The snack and catering car located at the rear of the train"
A few mins later "The snack and catering car located at the front of the train"
At least they're giving the passengers a bit of exercise as they wander up and down the lenght of the train. Prevents deep vein thrombosis :D
Sure you can't be spoon feeding them!
I'm a fan of proper bilingualism though. Would rather have everything absolutely right in both languages on public services. I just feel the key point on a Dublin bound train is Dublin / B.A.C. regardless of wheather it terminates in Heuston or Connolly. It's covered in English though, which is essentially going to be the most relevant to those travellers unfamilar with the 2 station system in Dublin. The PIS does announce and display "Dublin Heuston" which makes absolute sense. This is also the case in the UK with services bound to cities/towns with multiple stations.
What has always irritated me with CIE (Dublin bus in particular) signage has been that it's paid lipservice to the bilingualism requirement rather than actually making the proper effort. The MK4 trains do, for the first time, go the whole hog, just was simply pointing out what I would personally consider something that might be more "passenger friendly" i.e. if you're on the look out for "Dublin / Baile Atha Cliath" you might spot it more easily than Heuston (or its Irish spelling) - This is particularly important for tourists who do rapidly become familiar with Baile Atha Cliath on signage.
It's also worth noting, the MK4s do serve connections to gaeltacht areas via Mallow to Kerry and via bus to west cork.
Mark Gleeson
18-09-2006, 10:43
Set 4001 is rumoured to have the best ride of the bunch, it probably helps that it was jacked up in Inchicore for sometime to pull pieces of a cow out of it. IE are still looking for the coupling that detached on impact
During the impact a lot of celling panels, light fittings etc came lose, that would explain a lot of the funny issues we are seeing, all of which seem isolated to 4001, that said 4115 in set 4003 had a loose celling panel recently.
A large set of modifications are being carried out, some of the details of which don't make for comfortable reading but there is a continuning problem where nuts are working loose which would go a long way to explaining the ride varying. The wheel profiles need to be changed as well.
The best example for weird Mk4 ride is Templemore, Cork bound, approach at 85 mph its giddy but for about 200m through the station is becomes perfect only to return to giddy on a Mk3 you notice a difference but the approach is far calmer.
The seats are so much better the only issue really is that oversided duct on the floor. Interesting thing to note is the seats in the buffet are first class spacing with much larger tables
The PIS system should not be used to give information about catering services thats explicitly pointed out in the guidelines.
That duct is pretty enormous alright. You'd wonder why they didn't route it under the coach itself.
What's with the interior doors though? Switched off or failed?
It was quite worrying to see that one of them managed to jam 1/3rd way shut and didnt seem to want to open despite several strong pushes from some of the stronger members of the travelling public. One guy pushed it back and there was a definite sound of something mechanical grinding in a way that it definitely shouldn't!!!
Well, Irish Rail is probably only doing PIS in Gaeilge at all to stay in compliance with the law and avoiding the weight of the Shinners and rest of the linguistic fascist brigade down on their necks. I mean, seriously, who's going to understand "Balie Atha Cliath" that DOESN'T understand "Dublin?"
Really, it's a matter of professionalism. If you can't do it properly, why do it at all.
Having everything written in our national language as well as the handy language we all learn from the telly means that people get to use the living language.
As for the discussion on "lána bus" and "lána tram," as Irish is a living language it picks up words from other languages. Like "le weekend" in french or "television" in english which comes from some other language.
Thomas J Stamp
19-09-2006, 09:07
Lads, stay on topic.
However, i might cull a new thread from this.
IE are obliged to be bilinugal, as noted above IE carry passengers from and to Gealteacht areas. If they are giving them mis-spelt and incorrect information it ought to be brought to their attention.
sandraoh
19-09-2006, 09:43
why does the train manager always have to ask people to move to the rear/front of train in Portarlington? Couldn't that be included in the electronic announcement?
Mark Gleeson
19-09-2006, 09:54
why does the train manager always have to ask people to move to the rear/front of train in Portarlington? Couldn't that be included in the electronic announcement?
Legally the train shouldn't be even allowed stop in Portarlington
Its no problem to include it however it only applies Dublin bound, Cork bound with 8 coaches the first class coach just about fits, you want to see Templemore where the platform is only 100m long for 200m of train
Can't they just extend the platforms?! ?!
They've only had ... 30 years of 200meter trains.
Mark Gleeson
19-09-2006, 14:50
Back in the old days it was ok since there was no safety police and also the fact you needed to stick your head out the window mean't you couldn't help noticing the lack of a platform.
I have a list of issues to go in about the Mk4 and to be honest at this stage its amazing it still moves
Thomas J Stamp
19-09-2006, 15:11
I know of one person who broke their leg falling out of a carriage in the good old days.
Mark Gleeson
19-09-2006, 15:32
Its a suprisingly long way to the ground and most people don't climb down correctly that said the newer coaches lack a proper set of steps, hell I remember the days of climbing out a Mk2 at platform 1 in Heuston
Portarlington is nasty since Dublin bound there is a bridge, Cork bound you are faced with a heap of track.
Templemore Cork bound is bliss a perfect flat wide strip
Legally IE are in trouble with the Mk4 and short platforms infact there are no notices on board whch give the check you are at a platform before getting out
Navan Junction
19-09-2006, 17:57
avoiding the weight of the Shinners and rest of the linguistic fascist brigade down on their necks.
I'd say that there are more Irish speakers in FF than SF, and I'm not sure fascist is a fair description of those that want to use the native Irish language..
My two cents, and apologies, back on topic..
I know someone else who had her foot badly injured by a MK3 door quite a few years ago. It seems they lack the usually mandatory "beeping alert" and also I wouldn't like to test their ability to recognise your foot!
Quite a few questionable design issues in the older rolling stock too !
The MK4 undoubtedly has a lot of snags that will need to be resolved. I'm sure this is the best time to do that though. The more feedback that goes back to CAF the better.
I'm still flabbergahsted that they didn't put sockets for laptops into the standard class areas. Surely it's standard in 2006 ?! They're only in CityGold. Not every business traveller will pay the premium for the service. Not to mention students etc. Little features like that give the train a major advantage over the bus.
Mark Gleeson
21-09-2006, 19:55
Looks like another one got broke today, a set appeared in Connolly this evening
Only reason they come to Connolly is for repair of suspension faults, don't even ask why Inchicore can't handle that
Speaking of lab-tops - I seen a foreign student on a DART during the summer with his PC connected (via the usual intl adapter) to the power socket at the end of a DART...I have to admire his ingenuity:)
Mark Gleeson
21-09-2006, 20:59
Seen it before, all Japanese units come with 4 sockets per coach, the Alstom units come with one at each coach end, they are provided for cleaners, many a phone charger I've seen plugged in
Mk3 coaches have a socket in the luggage rack, the Mk2d has a funny socket but if you plug in it is live no idea what voltage but laptop adaptors don't care
I have yet to find the sockets on a Mk4 the luggage rack drew a blank
I suspect that they're behind a panel somewhere as they do seem to get on with the normal hoovers.
Was on the new train myself today from Cork. Bit shakey at times but otherwise grand.
We were booked into carriage A but because we were standard class and apparently something happened to the computer booking system we had to go hunt for our own seats down the back of the train. Should we consider ourselves lucky to sit back there and get a smoother ride?
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