View Full Version : Irish Rail approaches the last stop?
Mark Gleeson
11-01-2009, 23:37
The elimination of ticket checkers and their replacement, where possible, by train hostesses.
Train host has been a very successful initiative on the Cork service, has delivered a significant improvement in passenger experience, it needs a bit more work but it is drastically better than the old guard and checker routine. The train host/manager idea is used Europe wide, and they manage to handle the customer service and ticket checking without trouble, better service for lower cost.
The total discontinuation of Fastrack from 31/3/09.
If there is any aspect of the business beyond those for which a statutory obligation exists (passenger services) making a loss its got to be restructured or closed down it is totally unacceptable that part of the business is propped up by passengers fares. Loss of fastrack will have zero impact on passenger experience and will reduce presure to increase fares. Every 2.5 million loss means 1% more on the fares
Speeding up the closure of remaining signal cabins and manned level crossings.
You have totally lost any credibilty by trying to make this out to be a bad thing, not doing this is putting passengers and staff lives at risk
The automation aspect has saved millions per annum while improving the passenger service and I know for a fact accidents have been prevented thanks to it. At least 6 signal cabins are going by years end. It means we can have a 24 hour railway and the end to the delays when the crossing keeper decides to sleep it in, Kerry line and Waterford passengers are well familar with this problem.
The possible replacement of bookings offices at stations with 'alternative arrangements'
Online ticket sales for all routes is coming, Sligo and Rosslare are coming. A massive expansion in the number of locations where internet tickets can be collected is coming soon as well. There will be a Social Welfare smartcard in place of the current pass, smartcards in Dublin and possibly elsewhere. The need for a traditional booking office is reducing fast. The word possible of course doesn't mean its happening
I've seen elsewhere very effective staffing approaches where its only when a passenger seeks a complicated ticket that they enter the booking office, other times they are about the station in a customer service role which also doubles up as a security and revenue protection role. Passenger reaction in UK positive in both surveys and increased travel to this setup.
How a station such as Thurles justifies 4 staff on duty (and still closes for lunch) is seriously questionable, two is more than enough. For regional routes the onboard conductor approach is perfectly acceptable, it works fine elsewhere, Northern Ireland Railways has few staffed stations yet its passengers are signifcantly happier with the customer service.
How exactly it is going to be implemented is a concern which we are already watching, but massive savings can be made and an improved customer service can be provided as well as part of the exercise, plus it give Irish Rail the power sack those lazy and unless ticket clerks, this forum is far too familiar with the Maynooth situation.
I really don't see a problem, the vast majority of this is very much in favour of the passenger, not doing this would actually make things worse. Its following well established practices used successfully elsewhere, much of this should have been done 5 if not 10 years ago.
In fact the recession could be a blessing in disguse to finally force Irish Rail into a cost effective passenger focused operator, if they don't it will be curtains. There are massive savings to be made within Irish Rail, through a combination of better staffing, better timetabling, sweating the assets and other small steps many tens of millions can be knocked off the losses.
Those who attended the AGM in December already know the package of measures we will be proposing to improve the service while implementing a combination of savings and also measures to increase revenue. A formal publication of this is coming soon
Despite all the doom and gloom, the 6 months of random cancellations and 5 days or so no trains in Cork/Kerry intercity passenger numbers are actually up 2008 vs 2007 and there are some timetabling improvements coming this Summer where fuel prices will be half what CIE is currently paying combined with a fleet of trains using significantly less than locomotive hauled services. The real problem is the pension fund has gone south, not the passenger side of the business
Thomas J Stamp
12-01-2009, 11:01
4) The possible replacement of bookings offices at stations with 'alternative arrangements' - the mind truly boggles!
I dont get this. Luas works fine, if there is a TVM in every station whats the problem? I never use the booking office in Thurles, even if its manned, i just use the TVM.
It appears there was the hatchings of a plan by IE to get staff out of sedentary positions and into more pro active roles - for a start they need lots of new drivers and hosts if they ever hope to start the two hourly service (which may be a forlorn hope now) nationwide. Thet can only get them internally, hence the need to shift people about.
Of course they should have set this in motion yonks ago, now it may be too late.
I dont get this. Luas works fine, if there is a TVM in every station whats the problem? I never use the booking office in Thurles, even if its manned, i just use the TVM.
The problem tom is unlike the luas some suburban rail stations are served by infrequent trains and have an inadequate information services. For many a time the only place to get information on the train situation at clonsilla was by asking the ticket office or the manned signal point.
Once both of these go we have to rely on announcements being made, ringing the timetable hotline or by checking the website, can we rely on those? honestly?
Thomas J Stamp
12-01-2009, 12:58
The problem tom is unlike the luas some suburban rail stations are served by infrequent trains and have an inadequate information services. For many a time the only place to get information on the train situation at clonsilla was by asking the ticket office or the manned signal point.
Once both of these go we have to rely on announcements being made, ringing the timetable hotline or by checking the website, can we rely on those? honestly?
but they are easily fixed.
Train host has been a very successful initiative on the Cork service, has delivered a significant improvement in passenger experience, it needs a bit more work but it is drastically better than the old guard and checker routine. The train host/manager idea is used Europe wide, and they manage to handle the customer service and ticket checking without trouble, better service for lower cost.
If there is any aspect of the business beyond those for which a statutory obligation exists (passenger services) making a loss its got to be restructured or closed down it is totally unacceptable that part of the business is propped up by passengers fares. Loss of fastrack will have zero impact on passenger experience and will reduce presure to increase fares. Every 2.5 million loss means 1% more on the fares
You have totally lost any credibilty by trying to make this out to be a bad thing, not doing this is putting passengers and staff lives at risk
The automation aspect has saved millions per annum while improving the passenger service and I know for a fact accidents have been prevented thanks to it. At least 6 signal cabins are going by years end. It means we can have a 24 hour railway and the end to the delays when the crossing keeper decides to sleep it in, Kerry line and Waterford passengers are well familar with this problem.
Online ticket sales for all routes is coming, Sligo and Rosslare are coming. A massive expansion in the number of locations where internet tickets can be collected is coming soon as well. There will be a Social Welfare smartcard in place of the current pass, smartcards in Dublin and possibly elsewhere. The need for a traditional booking office is reducing fast. The word possible of course doesn't mean its happening
I've seen elsewhere very effective staffing approaches where its only when a passenger seeks a complicated ticket that they enter the booking office, other times they are about the station in a customer service role which also doubles up as a security and revenue protection role. Passenger reaction in UK positive in both surveys and increased travel to this setup.
How a station such as Thurles justifies 4 staff on duty (and still closes for lunch) is seriously questionable, two is more than enough. For regional routes the onboard conductor approach is perfectly acceptable, it works fine elsewhere, Northern Ireland Railways has few staffed stations yet its passengers are signifcantly happier with the customer service.
How exactly it is going to be implemented is a concern which we are already watching, but massive savings can be made and an improved customer service can be provided as well as part of the exercise, plus it give Irish Rail the power sack those lazy and unless ticket clerks, this forum is far too familiar with the Maynooth situation.
I really don't see a problem, the vast majority of this is very much in favour of the passenger, not doing this would actually make things worse. Its following well established practices used successfully elsewhere, much of this should have been done 5 if not 10 years ago.
In fact the recession could be a blessing in disguse to finally force Irish Rail into a cost effective passenger focused operator, if they don't it will be curtains. There are massive savings to be made within Irish Rail, through a combination of better staffing, better timetabling, sweating the assets and other small steps many tens of millions can be knocked off the losses.
Those who attended the AGM in December already know the package of measures we will be proposing to improve the service while implementing a combination of savings and also measures to increase revenue. A formal publication of this is coming soon
Despite all the doom and gloom, the 6 months of random cancellations and 5 days or so no trains in Cork/Kerry intercity passenger numbers are actually up 2008 vs 2007 and there are some timetabling improvements coming this Summer where fuel prices will be half what CIE is currently paying combined with a fleet of trains using significantly less than locomotive hauled services. The real problem is the pension fund has gone south, not the passenger side of the business
i am all for the control of the entire network to be controlled from a central point
what i want to ask is about the part of the above post you cut namely the running of an unmanned rail system had how safe it is and how likely it is to happen
but they are easily fixed.
True, but it should be done before these measures come into place. That signal cabin in clonsilla being the best place to get information says alot about the maynooth line
PLUMB LOCO
12-01-2009, 14:11
I dont get this. Luas works fine, if there is a TVM in every station whats the problem? I never use the booking office in Thurles, even if its manned, i just use the TVM.
It appears there was the hatchings of a plan by IE to get staff out of sedentary positions and into more pro active roles - for a start they need lots of new drivers and hosts if they ever hope to start the two hourly service (which may be a forlorn hope now) nationwide. Thet can only get them internally, hence the need to shift people about.
Of course they should have set this in motion yonks ago, now it may be too late.
Well bully for you - aren't you great you like using automatic ticket machines - my experience is that most passengers prefer human interaction as all booking office staff are not like the oddball at Maynooth. There is the security aspect of unmanned stations, maintenance of toilets, gardens etc. Instead of doing away with staff IE should have been looking at ways of maximising their contribution to revenue - dealing with Fastrack parcels would have been one way! Of course getting rid of staff is the easy option for management with no ability! :mad:
Mark Hennessy
12-01-2009, 15:03
A big problem with the TVMs is that they dont offer all ticket types, a big pain.
Do they accept debit / credit cards also?
Imagine a fully automated system with NO Irish Rail staff.... how can anyone say that wouldn't be an improvement!!! :)
Serioulsly tho, in this day and age there is no need for booking office staff, it should all be automated. Or they could do as they do in the Netherlands, +0.50c if you buy your ticket from the office rather than the machine. People soon get the idea.
Mark Gleeson
12-01-2009, 16:00
A big problem with the TVMs is that they dont offer all ticket types, a big pain.
Do they accept debit / credit cards also?
They do take plastic something the bulk of booking offices can't. Also the machine is far more polite !
Of course Northern Ireland Railways manages without a single TVM to my knowledge, most stations are unstaffed yet are in better condition than most staffed Irish Rail stations
Thomas J Stamp
12-01-2009, 16:19
Well bully for you - aren't you great you like using automatic ticket machines - my experience is that most passengers prefer human interaction as all booking office staff are not like the oddball at Maynooth. There is the security aspect of unmanned stations, maintenance of toilets, gardens etc. Instead of doing away with staff IE should have been looking at ways of maximising their contribution to revenue - dealing with Fastrack parcels would have been one way! Of course getting rid of staff is the easy option for management with no ability! :mad:
Dont be so precious. Much as i like the idea of IE staff doing gardening work (I love my garden) i dont see that as their primary role. I never once said that people should be sacked or got rid of, i said re-deployed. I love having the banter with the lads in the station as much as anyone, but if their job is outdated and they can do something else - something else which needs to be done in order to safeguard the future of the company - then I cant see what your problem is.
Mark Hennessy
12-01-2009, 17:55
If IE are going to a fully unstaffed operation then can they do it a very professional and comprehensive manner?
All ticket types to be provided from TVMs
Advertising campaign for 2-3 months in advance of this. Station staff to help and educate customers in using the TVMs
Visible ticket agent on all inter city trains to sell ticket. Zero tolerance at termini. Customers to be able to print out web bookings with barcode or have ticket on mobile phone to cut down even further on bureacracy.
Commuter Termini to have TVMs on platform to allow tickets to be purchased getting off train if boarded in Broombridge etc. Zero tolerance policy otherwise
All tvms to have a scheduled number for uptime. No tvm to be out of service for more than a day. Policy enforced by body such as DTA :D
Please add to this list so that IE management might get "inspiration".
Internal correspondence that I have seen today would suggest major retrograde retrenchment is coming down the line for the whole IE network.
Apparently among proposals being considered by CIE/IE management are the following:
1) The elimination of ticket checkers and their replacement, where possible, by train hostesses.
2) The total discontinuation of Fastrack from 31/3/09.
3) Speeding up the closure of remaining signal cabins and manned level crossings.
4) The possible replacement of bookings offices at stations with 'alternative arrangements' - the mind truly boggles!
<snip>
mark i would be intrested in your views on the above statement especially the
last paragraph about the unmanned rail network thanksSign me up for most of that except:
Fasttrack - why give it the axe? The idea is sound - use cupboard space to ferry parcels along the network, methinks they should have tried to make it more efficient, or raise prices if that couldn't be done.
Secondly, closing booking offices and replacing them with "alternative arrangments" I'm sorry this doesn't inspire confidence. Simply because the online booking system is not always a better option than the booking office, but also because TVMs don't issue all types of ticket and from what I've read here there's no onus on the passenger to use them.
The rest of it - the streamlining of staff on trains and the elimination of manual crossings and cabin-controlled signalling, all sound like good ideas.
Mark Gleeson
12-01-2009, 18:49
Our only concern is the ticketing and booking office situation. You should come face to face with a person at least once during a journey. Thats critical for revenue collection
We have plenty of examples of how it is done elsewhere, we know its possible to deliver a better service in fact at lower cost than current.
Problem is Irish Rail are doing the lazy thing of slash and burn, instead of properly looking at the service how can it be made better the plan must be a combination of improving the service to gain additional revenue and doing things in a more intelligent manner to save money
With a combination of extra services, new routes and so on I don't see a need for a mass cull of staffing numbers, sure there will be a need to trim a number of jobs indeed a opportunity to remove those who fail to show a customer focus.
Colm Moore
12-01-2009, 20:37
Secondly, closing booking offices and replacing them with "alternative arrangments" I'm sorry this doesn't inspire confidence. Simply because the online booking system is not always a better option than the booking office, but also because TVMs don't issue all types of ticket and from what I've read here there's no onus on the passenger to use them.
My mother was at a funeral in London last week going from Gatwick to Croydon by train. As she entered the station concourse in Gatwick, there was a queue of about 20 people for tickets. Seeing 4 older people together, a member of staff took them aside to the customer service desk and issued their tickets there. Even gave then a 2-for-1 deal. Thats what I'd like to see happen in medium to large stations (in terms of pasenger numbers) - Heuston or Galway or the bigger stations can keep a single ticket desk (or a few for major events), but Dublin suburban stations could mostly get away with 3 TVMs and a "platform / concourse supervisor". What you don't want is the ability of staff to hide from customers and trespassers. Shifting people away from single / return tickets onto season tickets is also important from cash handling, socio-economic and environmental grounds.
Now, I can't imagine such a customer service situation at Woodlawn, which sometimes has nobody boarding or alighting. However, it could have one* TVM and if its a complicated ticket or the person isn't comfortable using the technology, then a ticket checker can issue a ticket as people board.
* Strictly speaking you'd love to have two of more machines at every station, in case someone is slow using it or in the case of a fault. For Woodlawn, you just might get away with none.
Thomas Ralph
12-01-2009, 21:23
I think the Permit to Travel scheme used in smaller stations in the UK could bear a lot of fruit. The way it works is if you can't buy a ticket from the TVM (or there is none, or it's not working), you put some coins into the machine (up to the value of your ticket or whatever you have) and it spits out a voucher, not unlike a pay and display machine, with the station name and amount paid printed on it, valid for 2 hours. This voucher is then exchanged or used in part payment for a ticket with an onboard ticket-checker or at the destination station. Or in the worst case, the railway has got some money that it wouldn't otherwise get. They're also used in stations with limited booking office hours.
Of course Northern Ireland Railways manages without a single TVM to my knowledge, most stations are unstaffed yet are in better condition than most staffed Irish Rail stations
There's £200k pencilled in for TVMs 2010-11
http://www.translink.co.uk/resources2007/pdfs/Capital%20Expenditure%20Prog%20200809%20to%2020101 1.pdf
Page 5
Mark Gleeson
12-01-2009, 22:02
It doesn't say TVM, it says ticket machines could be a renewal of the booking office equipment, Ulsterbus has a similar entry. You won't get many with £200k
Point is NIR have gone with a conductor model which works exceptionally well, the stations despite being unstaffed are clean, have excellent signage and clear timetabling information.
Its an absolute shock to go from IE to NIR the attitude, the presentation the whole show is so much better from the passenger point of view. NIR run on a tiny subsidy mind you but they have made an effort to sort out the simple issues, things that matter. Numerous award have been won. Its a clear example of best practice that can be drawn upon
Colm Moore
12-01-2009, 22:11
There's £200k pencilled in for TVMs 2010-11
http://www.translink.co.uk/resources2007/pdfs/Capital%20Expenditure%20Prog%20200809%20to%2020101 1.pdf
Page 5Based on the cost of ATMs, TVMs probably costs tens of thousands of euros each, with fitting costs extra.
dowlingm
12-01-2009, 22:30
split the difference - a TVM for 90% of fares and an "IE Counter" in a retail space where the ticket office used to be, providing tickets, printed timetables etc.
This model is the way post offices are going after all and the counter surcharge could be done per the suggestion above.
This provides a human presence and awareness of unusual activity - not to mention an opportunity to for people to stock up rather than be forced to bet on whether there will be a trolley on board etc.
Ideally the railway station would become a community hub with other services like car hire/bike hire/tourist office basing themselves there but this would probably entail separating IE from the running of the station area and merely being one more tenant.
Based on the cost of ATMs, TVMs probably costs tens of thousands of euros each, with fitting costs extra.
Fair point guys. Based on figures from the BART in California, they cost around $45,000=£30,000. So you'd get 7...
Since the budget doesn't go beyond that year though, it's possible it's a trial. I hope so, I love NIR and their staff are the greatest asset, but it can be stressful getting a ticket at morning peak.
dowlingm, I like the ideas, and a lot of that already happens here in Deutschland, but it's the realm of fantasy for IR i'm afraid
split the difference - a TVM for 90% of fares and an "IE Counter" in a retail space where the ticket office used to be, providing tickets, printed timetables etc.
This model is the way post offices are going after all and the counter surcharge could be done per the suggestion above.
Somebody mentioned The Netherlands earlier and this is the way a lot of the smaller stations have gone there.
There are ticket issuing machines at the entrance to the station, but there's also a Wizzl or Kiosk (the equivalents of Spar, Centra, Londis) and that shop has the ability to issue tickets as well.
Although, some of the smaller stations (Woodlawn, Carrigaloe, anything between Waterford and Rosslare etc.) probably couldn't support a shop on site.
Thomas Ralph
13-01-2009, 09:32
I have some issues with the Dutch system to be honest. It's an absolute horror for foreigners to use as there's an extra charge for buying tickets at the counter, but the TVMs don't accept notes, most of them don't accept coins, most of them don't accept credit cards, and most non-Dutch debit cards aren't accepted either.
Their machines are, as you mention, pretty poor. Although I was there for work just before Christmas and there seems to have been some progress with the non-Dutch debit cards. My Ulster Bank debit card works in the machines there now.
Mark Gleeson
13-01-2009, 10:49
Their machines are, as you mention, pretty poor. Although I was there for work just before Christmas and there seems to have been some progress with the non-Dutch debit cards. My Ulster Bank debit card works in the machines there now.
Got stung in Brussels by the weird ticket machines :confused:
For large stations, any station where trains start/terminate, where connections are made or any with exit turnstiles they will have to be staffed due a combination of the number of people and train service pattern.
Where a significant demand exists, a ticket vending machine is essential or else the conductor on the train will be swamped, however the capital cost of a TVM isn't far off employing a member of staff for a year and given ticket checks will be needed anyway a conductor could be cheaper over a 10 year period
For routes with a low demand the on train conductor solution works fine. So intercity you need a train manager, regional a conductor.
Everyone has to come face to face with a member of staff during the journey, Irish Rail are losing a massive amount of revenue as a result of making it all but impossible to get a ticket in some cases
Then comes the accident scenario regional/intercity train middle of nowhere, driver trapped/dead etc there isn't anyone onboard to deal with the situation. In a commuter situation its not a long walk to help, passengers would have a good idea of where they are, try that somewhere in south Tipperary
Thomas Ralph
13-01-2009, 14:03
Their machines are, as you mention, pretty poor. Although I was there for work just before Christmas and there seems to have been some progress with the non-Dutch debit cards. My Ulster Bank debit card works in the machines there now.
My BOI one was fine last time I was there but my partner's AIB one as well as each of four different ones from my friends (all UK cards, for the record) did not work.
Colm Moore
14-01-2009, 11:05
I have some issues with the Dutch system to be honest. It's an absolute horror for foreigners to use as there's an extra charge for buying tickets at the counter, but the TVMs don't accept notes, most of them don't accept coins, most of them don't accept credit cards, and most non-Dutch debit cards aren't accepted either.What do they accept?
Sorry, I know the Dutch system is off topic, but to answer the question, they accept a Dutch pin card (debit), which quite literally EVERYONE has. There are always some machines which will take cash, and machines at schiphol and other major stations do accept credit cards.
They are also replacing a lot of the machines now, and the new ones I've seen all seem to take cash. But I'm guessing they'll limit this to reduce the workload of collecting/managing the cash. The only people to pay by cash are generally tourists.
But from an IE point of view, I don't see why we need someone sat in a booking office from first train in the morning, to last train at night. Enough TVMs, or indeed integrated ticketing which can be topped up online/mobile etc etc (again something be rolled out in NL) should easily suffice.
Thomas Ralph
14-01-2009, 12:48
A human presence in the station (whether as a ticket clerk, signalman, customer service assistant, or some combination) has a powerful effect at reducing fare evasion, vandalism, and anti-social behaviour. And let's not forget that TVMs in the Dublin suburban area have the sale of child tickets disabled.
Mark Gleeson
14-01-2009, 13:39
Seen numbers for a UK outfit, numbers traveling with a valid ticket down from 15% to 3%, revenue up 17% all by having someone at the station 18 hours a day. Those are very big numbers
Thomas Ralph
14-01-2009, 14:44
numbers traveling with a valid ticket down from 15% to 3%
"without", hopefully?
Mark Gleeson
14-01-2009, 14:49
"without", hopefully?
Indeed
however the capital cost of a TVM isn't far off employing a member of staff for a year and given ticket checks will be needed anyway a conductor could be cheaper over a 10 year period
revenue up 17% all by having someone at the station 18 hours a day
just for the record, you wouldn't be expecting this member of staff to work 18 hours a day? :eek:
S'pose you could have vandalism of the tvms from irish rail staff suddenly removed from their cushy jobs a lÃ* crazy level-crossing-blocking woman
Mark Gleeson
14-01-2009, 21:10
Imagine a route with 10 stations, TVM's cost 20-40k depending on who you talk to, require maintenance, restocking etc. There will be a need for random ticket checks on a regular basis. The cost saving isn't as obvious as it might first look. The TVM's are fairly vandal proof
As I've said NIR seem to do well with the conductor approach, London Overground has delivered a stunning turnaround by simply having a member of staff in the station all day
At 11am this morning I counted no fewer than 14 members of staff on duty in Pearse station (ignoring 4 contractors and 2 engineers). Only 5 where engaged in productive activity (1 ticket clerk, two gate supervisors, one with a brush and another on track inspection) the rest where on the doss, 2 smoking for a start
Colm Moore
15-01-2009, 17:44
S'pose you could have vandalism of the tvms from irish rail staff suddenly removed from their cushy jobs a lÃ* crazy level-crossing-blocking womanBut they'd have to work then. :)
At moderately busy (duburban/DART) and busy (main terminii) stations, having TVMs and a staff member(s) is desireable.
Thomas Ralph
15-01-2009, 19:45
That's pretty much what we have, the unstaffed-at-weekends stations excepted. Around 85% of stations are staffed at least some of the time.
Alan French
18-01-2009, 18:48
I think we should object to the withdrawal of Fastrack parcel service. The question is whether it's actually losing money at the margins. In most stations parcels traffic needs no extra staff, so it's extra revenue for little extra cost.
I mentioned this point when writing my submission on sustainable transport last April. My idea was that once any vehicle (train or bus) is making a journey, it should carry as much as possible. (This is also a reason for putting empty train runs into service where possible.) I took the example of someone wanting to send a parcel from Dun Laoghaire to Dublin. The DART may be almost door-to-door, but an unaccoompanied parcel cannot be carried on the DART; a separate road journey has to be made.
I referred to the fact that the parcels service was withdrawn from all suburban stations in 1978, even though for the next 25 years most of these stations had some trains with a guard who could oversee the parcels. I mentioned this a case of RATIONALISING the rail system, rather than making real savings, or checking which traffic is really better carried by road. This is a theme that recurs in my writings.
Thomas Ralph
18-01-2009, 20:15
RUI is a passenger organization; parcel/freight isn't really a focus.
Mark Hennessy
18-01-2009, 21:39
parcel/freight isn't really a focus.
I agree that most passengers will not notice this at all but it is symptomatic of the CIE mindset, slash and burn everything and make sure none of the cuts affect anyone in the cosseted upper management. New ideas are heretical to these guys so ending a (very useful) parcel service is the same as slashing useful train services to these plonkers.
Remember, passengers are given about the same level of respect as parcels when it comes to the CIE axe...
RUI is a passenger organization; parcel/freight isn't really a focus.
Fastrack was different in that you didn't need to be a business to use it. I know a few people that found it a cost effective and fast way to transport goods, very few of them would have been business customers and all of them would have been passengers too.
While it might not seem like a passenger issue, it does reduce the level of sevice that is offered to the general public, both passengers and non-passengers.
dowlingm
19-01-2009, 13:49
Why won‘t passengers use ticket machines? (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2009/01//why_wont_passengers_use_ticket_machines.html)
Thomas Ralph
19-01-2009, 15:21
Decent point, although our train ticketing system is orders of magnitude simpler than the Great British one (ever tried the National Routeing Guide?). To take a bad example, if you're getting a return train ticket from central London to Gatwick Airport, there are literally dozens of options, with fares differing depending on the time of day for both your outbound and return journeys, whether you're returning same day or not, and whether your ticket is valid on one, two, or all three train operating companies that run on that line. And that's before looking at standard vs. first class or railcards.
To take a bad example, if you're getting a return train ticket from central London to Gatwick Airport, there are literally dozens of options
As it happens I travelled from Victoria to Gatwick twice in the last two weeks (though in neither case from Gatwick).
The first time, I though the a single ticket would cost me £8.90, but it ended up costing me £10.90 when I got to the TVM (more than I expected, but not enough to make me join the queue to speak to a human).
The second time, a few days before, I went online (www.nationalrail.co.uk) to check the price and found I could get the ticket for £3, but I couldn't actually buy the ticket on that website. I was told to use the website of a train operating company (but the company operating the route - Southern - wasn't listed). I tried a 3rd party ticket seller first, but their fees amounted to £3.50, more than the cost of the ticket! Then I tried a random other train operator to see if it would work. I used Grand Central (who operate nowhere near either Victoria or Gatwick) and got the ticket for £3 with no extra fees.
That kind of situation is utterly baffling to the casual user (i.e. me) and I'm sure discourages people from travelling.
Mark Gleeson
22-01-2009, 15:19
Thankfully we are not in that mess
Its either
saver day return
day return
5 day return
monthly return
One of the few good things about Irish Rail is there are only a small number of ticket types and the conditions are fairly simple. The price they charge is a different issue.
Thomas Ralph
22-01-2009, 16:26
As it happens I travelled from Victoria to Gatwick twice in the last two weeks (though in neither case from Gatwick).
The first time, I though the a single ticket would cost me £8.90, but it ended up costing me £10.90 when I got to the TVM (more than I expected, but not enough to make me join the queue to speak to a human).
For standard anytime single tickets, £8.90 is from London to Gatwick route FCC Only. £10.90 is from London to Gatwick route Southern Only.
Thomas Ralph
22-01-2009, 16:27
Thankfully we are not in that mess
Its either
saver day return
day return
5 day return
monthly return
student return, but not with any old student card
adult single that costs almost as much as a return
faircard return
weekender return, if you're lucky enough to still have a weekender card
kid+family outing
Not always as easy :)
Colm Moore
22-01-2009, 17:43
Thankfully we are not in that mess
Its either
saver day return
day return
5 day return
monthly return
One of the few good things about Irish Rail is there are only a small number of ticket types and the conditions are fairly simple. The price they charge is a different issue.student return, but not with any old student card
adult single that costs almost as much as a return
faircard return
weekender return, if you're lucky enough to still have a weekender card
kid+family outing
Not always as easy :)
Also contract single. :)
Returns are discounted tickets, the single fare is the correct one
most countrys don't discount much on return tickets, sometimes on day returns, weekend returns are rare. mostly I buy singles theres more chance of me losing the return ticket then saving any money with it.
This group is for rail users, were fastrack customers not rail users?
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