View Full Version : The 02 arena and IEs lack of inititive
At Clonsilla station this evening one thing I spotted was a DART advertisement for the new 02 arena suggesting passengers to take the DART to Connolly and Tara Street and taking the 151 to the Point
Let alone the fact that at this stage passengers from Clonsilla cannot take the DART to Connolly IE have completely failed to grasp the potential that Docklands has in this case being close to the o2 arena.
This can work by running Maynooth and Pace trains and Kildare trains to Docklands. Of course any chance of running northside DARTs/commuters has diminished unless the interconnector but not looking good on that front!
Their lack of creativity and joined up thinking is not suprising but disappointing
Mark Hennessy
10-12-2008, 08:17
Thats a really good point (no pun).
Why can't IE advertise late night services in conjunction with each major gig in the Point?
On Sunday evenings, you will have thousands of concert goers stranded in their cars due to a complete lack of will to provide an alternative.
Good point mark
About 5 years ago where there was a bad maynooth timetable IE advertised that drumcondra was 5 minutes from croke park and listed those Sunday (and Saturday) times. We know how that has worked out since then!
All I say is that in these troubled times for IE some forward thinking could work in their favour!
Thomas Ralph
10-12-2008, 12:33
On Sunday evenings, you will have thousands of concert goers stranded in their cars due to a complete lack of will to provide an alternative.
Indeed. I remember making quite a lot of haste towards Connolly after a concert at the old Point finished the wrong side of 11.
Mark Gleeson
10-12-2008, 12:57
We have met Irish Rail and this issue did come up and there are two parties, the crew in MCD or whoever is the promoter and Irish Rail
It would appear that the promoters need manage their events better to ensure the end time of the concert is actually as expected. There are various other issues which would greatly help matters, most of which cost nothing and would take nothing more than a 10 minute phone call to explain
Intercity services don't seem to be much of a problem, certainly been a significant increase in the number of special services running over the last few years
the ad (at clonsilla station) states:
the o2 strongly encourages environmentally sustainable travel choices and where possible,we recommend using public transportation. Take the DART to tara street or Connolly station, then take the 151 bus from custom house quay
The ad is supported by DART
Now What's wrong with using docklands to it's maximum?
Mark Gleeson
10-12-2008, 22:57
I do recall mentioning Docklands when discussing the whole issue of the provision of special services. It does make a lot of sense, but only for Maynooth
In the past there have been crazy situations where concerts have ended 20-30 minutes later than planned such that the extra services or indeed the normal scheduled services had already left
We have all experienced the random holding of trains causing serious delays to existing daily passengers who suddenly find they are forced to wait since the concert went on too long.
The intercity division has definitely got its business hat on, and we seeing a clear pattern of extra trains for concerts and big matches
Like I said there are two parties involved here, Irish Rail need to get the business hat on but for it to work they have to rely on the concert promoters to give commitments as to the end time of the concert and some other matters. I know of one thing Irish Rail tried which was an incredibly simple question the answer to which would make planning so much easier if they got the answer.
There are two sides here, probably going to have to go down the planning permission route to force certain things to work
Interesting to note that there is currently no parking at the O2 with a multi-story planned to open in late 2009 so looks like there will be a heavy reliance on public transport in the beginning.
The O2 website mentions using the 53 bus but they have very limited capacity.
Mark Gleeson
11-12-2008, 16:01
I did some numbers last night on this
If a concert ends 22:30-22:45 allowing 25 minutes to get to Connolly, the following capacity is available without extra services
Maynooth 1240
Drogheda 1240
Malahide 1400
Howth 1400
Bray 1400
Greystones 1400
Total 8080
Allow 10% or so leaves you just over 7000 spaces, Luas can shift another 1500-2000 on top of that from Connolly or direct from the point in 2009.
Fully seated concert = 9500 people or 14500 for standing event
Finishing at 22:30-22:45 is essential, if the concert is to end at 23:30 there is still a great case for at least 1 train on each route. Problem arises here is past times there have been extra services with less than 50 people on board, a poster at a train station means nothing if you only travel once or twice a year
Curiously the concert promotors have the email address of a large proportion of the ticket holders, thats the disconnect the information needs to be got to the people going to the concert
Edit 53 route capacity is about 50 per hour.....
Mark Hennessy
11-12-2008, 22:12
This is yet another example of the lip service that is paid to public transport in Dublin.
I presume the local authority, (DCC?) give the license for the gig to go ahead on the proviso that the promoters liaise with the relevant parties, IE, RPA, DB, Guards etc to ensure that punters can get to / from the gig.
All good on paper and high fives at the board room level.
What we have is a few token posters from the o2 arena saying use the bus which can barely handle 1/20th of the numbers going while IE and DB completely fail to even bother adjusting the schedule to run later or extra trains / buses.
Thats just on a weeknight when there is a token late night service, it doesn't even begin to take into account the shambolic Sunday evening services.
Nobody with the power to make changes to transport in Dublin cares because no one with the power to make changes uses public transport in Dublin.
Derek Wheeler
11-12-2008, 22:48
Do your numbers, rehearse your speech, rant your rant. But remember the bottom line on this topic is quite simply later public transport. A concept that is still ignored by the railway. Blame the 02. Blame the event organisers. Look like wallies. But at least discuss the topic with some semblence of connection to the real world. Pandering to IEs ideas of providing a service is laughable. Demanding that events finish at a specified time is rediculous. Art is art. Anything can happen. Timing entertainment to fit in with existing public transport is retrograde. Timing public transport to fit in with entertainment is the future. Thats why the buses have done nightlink and nightrider. It needs to be expanded. All this talk of planning permission and strict finishing times is so 1950s its a joke.
It is clearly about the times but also the venue. Look at the nearest station to it, perfect, good location plenty of capacity etc. could have had Maynooth, Drogheda, pace and kildare all serving it but of course noone thinks outside the box!
CIE are in serious trouble they think cutbacks will save their bacon but their ideoligy is wrong and outdated. Their thinking is victorian their times their They failed to adapt to changing times in the country. They need fresh management wth fresh ideas otherwise it will be the end of the line resulting in the dreaded "p" word
Of course no christmas late night services this year as last year because noone used the late night DARTs they failed to try any other line
See what I mean useless!
Come to think of it don't Pace trains start running from Docklands from next year so thats a great advantage for dublin 15/pace/Maynooth line passengers!
They need to advertise it though!
Thomas Ralph
12-12-2008, 15:38
No. Pace trains don't and will never exist. They were an illusion. :(
Colm Moore
12-12-2008, 18:20
Timing public transport to fit in with entertainment is the future. Thats why the buses have done nightlink and nightrider.Nightrider is all but gone and all the Nitelink services are being reviewed in the new year - the flood of taxis have killed them.
I'm not sure if you can design a railway around occassional events, especially ones at a secondary location. Sure, specials can be laid on to move a chunk of the crowds, but holding scheduled services for 30 minutes (whatever about 10 minutes) destroys the service for regular users.
The GAA have copped on and laid on a bunch of park and ride services - from local GAA ground - for the main games in Croke Park last summer. Indeed there are a couple of operators that do concert specials to the main venues, but designing a service around "I want to stay in the pub all hours" isn't easy.
Now, all the operators do need to up their game, but they also need the cooperation of concert promoters and others. But concert promoters don't do socially responsible (perhaps a different day's argument).
Personally I'd love to see alcohol licences tied to the availibility of suitable public transport - let the pubs subsidise the buses and trains instead of the other way aorund.
Mark Gleeson
12-12-2008, 19:35
Late night DART flopped due to a combination of factors, primary one being Dublin Bus had a better product in Nightlink which was more than able to cope, even that is seeing a very significant fall off in numbers.
Bus option tends to be favoured in many cities. Still there is a case for 12:30 on all routes Fri/Sat trivial for DART and Drogheda but hard to provide for Maynooth and Kildare. But let us not lose sight of the real daily problems, no train west of Maynooth after 7pm and so on
Knowing when the concert is going to end is essential to ensure a plan can be put in place. Clearly if the concert can end at such a time when public transport is still running it is much much easier to cope and the public already know the timetable and so on
Irish Rail are very eager to provide extra services if they can turn a profit on them. As I have posted they need information from the concert organisers to match the service to the expected demand. Getting that information can be a problem
Well they could argue there was no demand for DARTs specials after 11:30 on the basis that they tried it but I cant see how they can argue the case for special commuter services given they haven't.
Derek Wheeler
12-12-2008, 21:19
Sorry, but some of you are still stuck in the mentality of "specials" and planning of extra services etc. Its 2008, not 1908. Lifestyles have changed, Dublin has changed. Regular late running should be the norm. As for taxis, well a cap is on the way and I predict a lot of drivers will quit the game anyway. The streets may be flooded with taxis, but struggling to make a living from it will inevitably lead to a fall off in provision. Public transport is still stuck in the past and its sad to see that it has created a culture of acceptance with some people. As for IE turning a profit, I suggest you go back through the various transport acts. They tell the tale of why IE/CIE has morphed into the dinosaur that it is from the top to the bottom. Its perhaps one of the most confused transport companies in the world.
They tell the tale of why IE/CIE has morphed into the dinosaur that it is from the top to the bottom.
And I get the feeling we may need these people to become extinct to stand any chance of fresh ideas to irish transport. These people haven't a clue whats really going on on the ground and i wouldn't be suprised if the top guns don't communicate with those on the ground (staff/passengers) even though they make it look as if they want to listen.
Mark Gleeson
13-12-2008, 00:07
The issue of regular later services and the miss match to modern lifestyles is comprehensively addressed in the policy presentation available in the members area but thats not the topic of this thread.
Extra trains are now run as routine to Cork, Limerick and Galway for big concerts, no other way home bar the train, those trains are full, they make a profit. If any train is full it makes a profit. There has been a significant increase in these in recent years and indeed Irish Rail permit people to book at the reduced web fares to further encourage passengers, they are most certainly playing ball to make this work.
In the past due to a combination of poor advertising and late running concerts there have been special services with less than 50 people on board. Like I posted earlier a poster at a station isn't really going to work, if you only use the train once or twice a year, you won't see it
The first responsibility of Irish Rail is to operate the published timetable, it is utterly unacceptable to sacrifice or delay timetabled services to cover for concerts, equally it unacceptable for the daily passenger to subsidise an extra service if its loss making.
I've spoken directly to the people who actually make these decisions and they appear genuinely focused on providing extra services where possible. However the cooperation of the concert promoters is essential on several fronts. I do know Irish Rail are they party applying the pressure they want to carry more people remember the profit off extra trains is increasingly important to keep the daily service on the road.
Many will recall the rip off charter run by a concert promoter a few years back, compared that to Irish Rail offering discounted fares and students fares, the finger of blame is starting to point at someone other than Irish Rail.
Some thoughts on how to sort this out
The concert promoters need to email the transport arrangements to the ticket buyers in advance, thats a trivial matter
Knowing where the concert goers are coming from could help, with GAA it's obvious. Gives an idea of the numbers allowing better planning
Finishing at an agreed time, there are issues with working hours and so on, its illegal for train drivers to exceed certain working hour limits (and that is a legitimate problem for ad hoc specials), trains have to be in place for the morning and so on, need for maintenance and inspections overnight. Holding the train costs a heap of cash and it might not be possible
The real question is the social obligation of the venue and promoter in getting their patrons home, the ball is very much in their court to make things work better. Planning conditions would really sort this mess out by putting a legal onus on the venue and promoter to get the house in order.
Given Connolly is staffed 24 hours and there are empty trains there already, and getting trains and staffing Docklands is awkward to serve only one route its unlikely it will open
sure mark isn't docklands going to be operating a full pace service from 2010 in anyway?
Mark Hennessy
13-12-2008, 09:35
I saw the poster that kicked off this thread on the train this morning.
It says "Get to the O2 using public transport".
Implicit in that is that you won't be going from the O2 by public transport.
Anyway, the issue of concerts and finishing times certainly happens in other jurisdictions, I don't think anyone here is seriously proposing they end at 10 pm, if anything above Mark's analysis of how early a gig must end if customers are to avail of public transport shows how prohibitive the current schedules are for people wishing to get home late at night.
EDIT: One other thing, is on street car parking free in Dublin after 7pm?
Thomas Ralph
13-12-2008, 17:48
EDIT: One other thing, is on street car parking free in Dublin after 7pm?
On most, but by no means all, streets. A minority have restrictions from 7am until midnight. And I've seen the clampers roaming an area with several of those streets last at night on many an occasion.
I don't know if you saw the map in this mornings Metro but there is a more detailed pdf format map here http://www.theo2.ie/assets/pdf/TransportGuide_Download.pdf outlining all the bus routes etc
Its one of the better maps i have seen in a long time good job done.
For those coming from west dublin/maynooth/meath Docklands station will be very handy! Nice to see shuttle buses coming into play also!
The road map coming into Dublin seems a bit out though! No M1 marked, not even as far as the airport
also no mention of docklands station on the dart & luas section and reference to www.dart.ie? (slightly out of date) main map looks good though.
Colm Moore
15-12-2008, 18:12
I was about to post that link.
I'm going to take a look at the planning application - it seems it has a mobility plan. The application was to the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, not the city council.
Mark Hennessy
15-12-2008, 19:52
Nice to see shuttle buses coming into play also!
On AA roadwatch on Drivetime this evening they mentioned the shuttle.
They only stated it as going from Green Line Luas, good to see it will serve other locations too.
James Shields
16-12-2008, 13:25
It would seem a very easy plan to park a couple of 29Ks in Docklands, where they're out of the way of scheduled services, and have one depart 20 mins after the concert ends, and the second depart 20 mins after that, running all stops to Maynooth.
This would leave the bay platforms in Connolly for a couple of similar services to Drogheda.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, it's a matter of IE putting their commercial hat on. Why have combined concert and rail tickets never happened in this country?
I don't know if you saw the map in this mornings Metro but there is a more detailed pdf format map here http://www.theo2.ie/assets/pdf/TransportGuide_Download.pdf outlining all the bus routes etc
Its one of the better maps i have seen in a long time good job done.
For those coming from west dublin/maynooth/meath Docklands station will be very handy! Nice to see shuttle buses coming into play also!
Am I misreading this or are they claiming that Heuston is a 28 minute walk form the Point? Or from the edge of the map, which is a bit pointless. not sure I'd fancy walking to Clontarf Road either, and I think 14 minutes is a bit optimistic.
Colm Moore
16-12-2008, 20:13
Closest stations to the 02:
DART: Grand Canal Dock (1.32km) Connolly (1.42km), Tara Street (1.52km), Pearse (1.57km), Lansdowne Road (2.07km)
Green Line: St. Stephens Green (2.8km), Charlemont (3.2km, but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at St. Stephens Green).
Red Line: Busáras (but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at Connolly).
Am I misreading this or are they claiming that Heuston is a 28 minute walk form the Point? Or from the edge of the map, which is a bit pointless. not sure I'd fancy walking to Clontarf Road either, and I think 14 minutes is a bit optimistic.This http://www.dto.ie/web2006/jp.htm gives 48 minutes to Heuston (4.082 km), but is overly-generous.
25 minutes (again generous), 2.117 km to Clontarf Road.
Closest stations to the 02:
DART: Connolly (1.42km), Pearse (1.57km), Lansdowne Road (2.07km)
Green Line: Charlemont (but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at St. Stephens Green).
Red Line: Busaras (but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at Connolly).
This http://www.dto.ie/web2006/jp.htm gives 48 minutes to Heuston (4.082 km), but is overly-generous.
25 minutes (again generous), 2.117 km to Clontarf Road.
What about Grand Canal Dock?
Closest stations to the 02:
DART: Grand Canal Dock (1.32km) Connolly (1.42km), Tara Street (1.52km), Pearse (1.57km), Lansdowne Road (2.07km)
Green Line: St. Stephens Green (2.8km), Charlemont (3.2km, but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at St. Stephens Green).
Red Line: Busáras (but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at Connolly).
This http://www.dto.ie/web2006/jp.htm gives 48 minutes to Heuston (4.082 km), but is overly-generous.
25 minutes (again generous), 2.117 km to Clontarf Road.
Thats exactly what I was thinking, GCD was nearest.
Colm Moore
16-12-2008, 20:30
What about Grand Canal Dock?Fixed already. There seems to be some glitches with the journey planner, e.g. it claims Charlemont (via South Lotts Road and the Grand Canal) is the closest Green Line stop - it might be the least hassle route, but is about 400m longer than via the city centre to St. Stephens Green.
robdrysdale
16-12-2008, 20:50
All I can say, speaking from experience tonight is that the O2/The Point is back with a vengeance.
Brought Dublin traffic to a complete standstill. Worst I've ever seen on the Coast Road in Sandymount. A normal 40-60 min Blackrock to Clontarf Drive took 2 hrs after giving up on East Link after taking 1 hr to get just over 1/2 way along the Sandymount Coast Road. A complete farce.
Words just fail me. Why the hell where they given planning permission for this place, given the chaos that it used to cause before the renovations, when it was a much smaller venue.
There's no hope for planning in this city. The venue should not have been allowed to open until Luas extension and Shuttle Buses were in place and free for all concert goes (paid for in Concert ticket at least).
Thankfully I'll be back on the Dart next week.
Closest stations to the 02:
DART: Grand Canal Dock (1.32km) Connolly (1.42km), Tara Street (1.52km), Pearse (1.57km), Lansdowne Road (2.07km)
Green Line: St. Stephens Green (2.8km), Charlemont (3.2km, but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at St. Stephens Green).
Red Line: Busáras (but expect a lot of trams to be filled by people getting on at Connolly).
This http://www.dto.ie/web2006/jp.htm gives 48 minutes to Heuston (4.082 km), but is overly-generous.
25 minutes (again generous), 2.117 km to Clontarf Road.
Docklands station is Distance: 0.426 km
according to the dto 5 minutes
Given Connolly is staffed 24 hours and there are empty trains there already, and getting trains and staffing Docklands is awkward to serve only one route its unlikely it will open
But its the same story with Drumcondra with only 1 route calling at the station and that does well!
Derek Wheeler
16-12-2008, 22:47
I saw the poster that kicked off this thread on the train this morning.
It says "Get to the O2 using public transport".
Implicit in that is that you won't be going from the O2 by public transport.
Anyway, the issue of concerts and finishing times certainly happens in other jurisdictions, I don't think anyone here is seriously proposing they end at 10 pm, if anything above Mark's analysis of how early a gig must end if customers are to avail of public transport shows how prohibitive the current schedules are for people wishing to get home late at night.
EDIT: One other thing, is on street car parking free in Dublin after 7pm?
Hammer, Nail, Head. - "How prohibitive the current schedules are."
Once again the issue of profit and public service obligations starts to rise from its grave. Its an issue thats endemic throughout the state and semi state bodies. An Post, CIE etc etc. Subsidy, profit, service. Those words don't blend.
Derek Wheeler
16-12-2008, 22:54
All I can say, speaking from experience tonight is that the O2/The Point is back with a vengeance.
Brought Dublin traffic to a complete standstill. Worst I've ever seen on the Coast Road in Sandymount. A normal 40-60 min Blackrock to Clontarf Drive took 2 hrs after giving up on East Link after taking 1 hr to get just over 1/2 way along the Sandymount Coast Road. A complete farce.
Words just fail me. Why the hell where they given planning permission for this place, given the chaos that it used to cause before the renovations, when it was a much smaller venue.
There's no hope for planning in this city. The venue should not have been allowed to open until Luas extension and Shuttle Buses were in place and free for all concert goes (paid for in Concert ticket at least).
Thankfully I'll be back on the Dart next week.
Im with you there Rob. Got caught in it tonight aswell. Im not lucking forward to its forthcoming schedule in 09. North Quays were heading to Galway.:D The promoters are not at fault. They just book the place. The owner, planners and transport companies are all to blame for this disaster.
Full house 4 carriage on the last train to maynooth tonight
Crowds seem to be arriving at connolly after 11
Mark Hennessy
17-12-2008, 00:21
Full house 4 carriage on the last train to maynooth tonight
Crowds seem to be arriving at connolly after 11
More examples of the tokenism, they could have run an 8 car train if they were actually serious about getting folks home from a gig.
The sad thing is that all and sundry in power when quizzed on the 90 min traffic jams on the Rock and Coast Rd this evening will say that "no one could have predicted this".
dowlingm
17-12-2008, 03:47
Why the hell where they given planning permission for this placeImagine what the Ikea folks are thinking right now :D
Colm Moore
17-12-2008, 14:17
So, I went along to the DDDA offices today and looked at the Mobility Plan that (wasn't quite) done as a result of a planning permission condition.
The plan, which has some errors, is essentially "Ah, sure it'll be grand". They seem to under-estimate car usage by concert-goers and over-estimate walking. I'll read up the details and post more later.
Note there are several parties involved - the owner, the operator, the promoter, the act.
First Top Gear no parking and now this. Mad.
Just thought i'd mention for kildare line passengers that the majority of bus eireanns route 126 [serves kildare,newbridge,naas] now terminate at Docklands station with a few[including the last- 23:00] terminating outside connolly station
http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1229705108-126.pdf
Just incase you ever need it ie last train missed, train cancelled, heading to or from o2 arena
Fleetwood mac is on in the o2 tonight but no late night maynooth train.
Every time there has been a concert in the o2 the last train at 23.10 is a fairly full 4 coach train.
Staff were telling me more than likely passengers will arrive at 11 and will be turned away apparently that is an often occurance !
Ie should also learn that sundays on bank holiday weekends should be treated as a saturday night!
Tom jones on tonight, you would have thought there would be demand .......
Tom jones on tonight, you would have thought there would be demand .......
It's Non Unuuuuuusual, to think so. :D
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Just for comparison, here's how LACMTA handled the recent U2 concert in LA. Shuttle buses, extra trains and even integration between late night trains to make sure you can make connections. It's all so shockingly simple. (Emphasis is my own)
To make the concert easier to reach, Metro — with funding from the Rose Bowl and concert promoter Live Nation — is extending rail and Orange Line service throughout the system into the early Monday morning hours.
Last trains will depart:
Metro Gold Line: North to Sierra Madre Villa will leave Memorial Park at 1:15 a.m.
South to Union Station will leave Memorial Park at 1:27 a.m. (Arrives Union Station 1:49 a.m. – Red Line transfer.)
Metro Red Line: West to North Hollywood will leave Union Station at 1:57 a.m. (Arrives 7th St./Metro Center 2:02 a.m. – Blue Line transfer.) (Arrives 2:06 a.m. Wilshire/Vermont – Wilshire Blvd. Line 20 corridor bus transfer.)
Metro Blue Line: South to Long Beach will leave 7th St./Metro Center at 2:05 a.m. (Arrives Imperial/Wilmington at 2:30 p.m. – Green Line transfer.)
Metro Green Line: East to Norwalk will leave Imperial/Wilmington at 2:37 a.m.
West to Redondo Beach will leave Imperial/Wilmington at 2:41 a.m.
Metro Orange Line: The Orange Line will make extra trips leaving North Hollywood at 1:30 a.m. and 2:30 a.m.
linky (http://thesource.metro.net/2009/10/20/metro-plans-late-night-service-for-u2-concert/)
vBulletin v3.6.2, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.