Late Night Luas 2008

[Mark Gleeson]

Notices up on the trams indicates late night services till 3am will commence on November 28th.

Looks to run every Fri/Sat night

[Colm Moore]

http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/C1%20Con%20Update%20No17_1108.pdfCHRISTMAS & NIGHT LUAS 2008

Night Luas Trams running Sat Nov 29th, Fri Dec 5th, Sat Dec 6th, Fri Dec 12th, Sat Dec 13th, Thurs Dec 18th, Fri Dec 19th, Sat Dec 20th, Mon Dec 22nd, Tues Dec 23rd, Fri Dec 26th and Wed Dec 31st.

Night Luas operates every 30 minutes on the Red Line from 0.30am to 3.00am and on the Green Line to 3.30am.

Tickets are €4 from Luas ticket machines or Luas Smartcard fare €3.80.

Service Restrictions apply on Dec 24th, Dec 25th & Dec 26th; see www.luas.ie for details

[chris]

NightLuas and NiteLink are a joke. In Munich my monthly ticket also covers all night services. It's no wonder Luas is turning a profit.

[Colm Moore]

With Dublin Bus, annual tickets are valid on Nitelink. I don't know about Laus.

[Mark Gleeson]

Annual Luas tickets are valid on the late night services. The difference in Europe is late night services seem to be considered part of the public service obligation, all Irish operations are totally commercial.

Credit where credit is due at least the RPA and Veoila provide a service, Irish Rail probably won't

I'm fairly sure the notice on the trams quotes more dates than the RPA document

[Colm Moore]

http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Press%20Release%20-%20Night%20Luas%20Starts%20Early%20271108.pdf

[dowlingm]

NightLuas and NiteLink are a joke. In Munich my monthly ticket also covers all night services. Ditto (http://www3.ttc.ca/Routes/General_Information/Maps/Blue_night_network.jsp) here in Toronto.

[Mark Gleeson]

Despite the fares trams where pretty full last night

[undo]

Despite the fares trams where pretty full last night

As long as the main competition to Night Luas is an equally overpriced Nightlink, it makes sense passengers accept the €4 tickets. It would be great if both went down in price but somehow, I don't see that happening.

[Mark Gleeson]

3.80 on the smart card for the Luas. Nightlink is currently €5

Annual ticket holders are of course able to travel on their tickets for free

[chris]

Despite the fares trams where pretty full last night

I agree with undo. That's simply not the point - if they can fill a tram every half hour at €4 a pop, they would be able to fill trams every 15/20mins and still turn a profit at €2-3 - and the whole thing is supposed to be about persuading the maximum number of people to switch to public transport (within financial reason).

They also need to make the night trams a permanent feature - they're certainly allowed to run them 24 hours a day.

[Mark Gleeson]

The difference is the Irish Government does not subsidise transport after 11:30, its not considered in the public service obligation

We would all love to have day time fares but and it is a big but who is going to pay for the extra security staff not to mention Luas drivers are probably on overtime to drive the trams (Dublin Bus drivers are not)

Dublin Bus was blocked from running 24 hour services in the recent past, by guess who, the Irish Government

[chris]

Well considering how much money they make from alcohol taxes, they should really reconsider making it part of the public service obligation. Getting home is what stops a lot of people going out more often.

And why oh why can the whole of Munich make it home with no security guards while Dublin struggles...

[markpb]

3.80 on the smart card for the Luas. Nightlink is currently €5

Annual ticket holders are of course able to travel on their tickets for free

Luas or DB annual ticket holders? I thought RPA changed the T&C on their tickets to specifically exclude Luas annual ticket holders.

[Mark Gleeson]

Press release clearly states Luas annual tickets are valid

[luasuser]

I agree with undo. That's simply not the point - if they can fill a tram every half hour at €4 a pop, they would be able to fill trams every 15/20mins and still turn a profit at €2-3 - and the whole thing is supposed to be about persuading the maximum number of people to switch to public transport (within financial reason).

They also need to make the night trams a permanent feature - they're certainly allowed to run them 24 hours a day.

Has anyone thought about the added costs of running a niteluas.

Firstly, the extra costs of security (because of alcohol fuelled passengers), threats to Luas staff, security.

The trams also have to be cleaned every night after service so that would add to costs by keeping cleaning staff on later to provide that service.

Thirdly drivers & staff of the 'NIGHTLUAS' do not operate the luas for a standard rate. Luas staff are not required or obliged to work this 'nightlaus' they do so on an overtime rate because their basic rate of pay is close to the minimum wage.

As a user i've often been on the normal service last luas & have travelled from connolly to tallaght on more than one occasion with 4 ticket collectors & 2 security men and under 4 passengers. So i dont think Luas will ever become a 24hr service or it would be feasible for Veolia to operate such a system.

k.

[luasuser]

The difference is the Irish Government does not subsidise transport after 11:30, its not considered in the public service obligation

We would all love to have day time fares but and it is a big but who is going to pay for the extra security staff not to mention Luas drivers are probably on overtime to drive the trams (Dublin Bus drivers are not)

Dublin Bus was blocked from running 24 hour services in the recent past, by guess who, the Irish Government

Your right Mark, LUAS drivers or ticket collectors are not obliged to work on the night luas, this is voluntary & based on a first come, first used basis. There is a special rate paid by Veolia to the staff but very few take up the offer & those that do are usually desperate to boost their meagre wages (which is close to the minimum wage).

Secondly staff are physically & verbally abused by drunken louts who ruin what should be an efficient means of getting home after a good night out. therefore security has to be paid for and that cost is added to the other costs of providing the service (the drivers, the ticket inspectors, the control room staff, & the energy costs)

thirdly, the trams have to be inspected & cleaned every night ready for service the following day. this takes several hours between cleaning & servicing, not to mention the fact that overtime would have to be paid to the maintainance staff to work later than normal.

so if passengers who live close to or within walking distance of either luas lines find the cost of a nightluas ticket too much, i would ask them, would they rather stand in a queue with aggressive drunken louts, for over two hours, then probably be told by the taxi driver that they are'nt heading that direction or have a fight over who skipped the queue to even get in a taxi.

not to mention its about €5 just to sit into a cab before the meter has even started running.

I think the nightluas service provides an excellent service taking all of these costs into consideration.

[undo]

Rude drunks are certainly a huge problem in Ireland, but other places have the same issue and manage to deal with it.

Irish drinking "culture" is similar to that in Britain and they somehow manage to have 24 hour and night buses running on the same Oyster card.

Security staff you will see on night buses/trams in many cities, without being charged twice the daily rate for a ticket.

Don't get me wrong, I think the NightLuas is a great service as it is and currently probably cannot be provided at a price much lower than €5. But I believe that in the longer term, this kind of service should be much more tightly integrated into the general public transport system and should become something people can rely on being available each weekend, all year round, as part of the normal public transport in town - not a special Christmas gift.

[dowlingm]

If bus/LUAS PSO doesn't cover after 2330 I wonder if this is something the Mothers Against Drunk Driving and other similar drink-driving/road-safety groups should be pushing for, at least on a targeted basis. There might still be a fare-premium for cash fare but this would be geared to additional promotion and service (minimum 20-30 mins on all routes even if that means using smaller vehicles). The sooner that people get moved out of the city centre the smaller the likelihood of incidents kicking off while people are hanging around waiting at taxi or bus ranks.

Over in these parts there is certainly a feeling that certain night routes deserve the term "Vomit Comet" (http://www.google.ca/search?q=toronto+%22vomit+comet%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) but that it's better to put up with that and try and minimise it rather than abandon the city to the grasp of the taxi industry.

[Colm Moore]

Well, ideally, the alcohol licencing laws would be linked to public transport schedules. If pubs and clubs in an area want to stay open late, then they should directly fund public transport.

Soberish people get the last bus home, drunkish people crash on the way home after "drinking up time". You can see it in the road fatality figures with a big jump after midnight.

[chris]

You're right. What was the figure for how much a road death costs the Irish economy? I've seen it quoted before, and it would be interesting to see how many public transport trips home it would subsidise.

[undo]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2008/1112/1226408550768.html

€3 million per death; that's a lot of trips on the Luas.

[chris]

€3 million per death; that's a lot of trips on the Luas.

Ok, so maximum fare home from the city centre is €2.20 during the day.
€5-2.20 = €2.80 which I'm calling the nighttime surcharge - what LUAS needs per passenger from the government to run a night time service at daytime prices

€3 million / €2.80 = 1,071,000 people safely home on the LUAS for the cost of one road death.

120 deaths due to alcohol every year on the roads, so I'm pretty sure you save one life for every 1,071,000 people you safely get home. (I have figures, but there's too much of a margin of error to put them up here.)

I'm really tempted to push the case for this when I get back to Ireland.

[undo]

Running the Luas at daytime prices may actually have the nice knock-on effect for Veolia of more people switching from buses to the tram. So, Veolia would not just get reimbursed for the loss due to lower ticket prices but could make an extra buck from the additional people taking the Luas. And maybe at that point, DB get envious and decide to lower prices as well?

[Mark Gleeson]

The Luas fare is 4 euro not 5 euro

Smartcard fare is 3.80

[chris]

The Luas fare is 4 euro not 5 euro

Smartcard fare is 3.80

Great, that makes it even less hard to justify not funding. I'm just thinking big, but thanks for correcting the facts.

[on the move]

Your right Mark, LUAS drivers or ticket collectors are not obliged to work on the night luas, this is voluntary & based on a first come, first used basis. There is a special rate paid by Veolia to the staff but very few take up the offer & those that do are usually desperate to boost their meagre wages (which is close to the minimum wage).

Secondly staff are physically & verbally abused by drunken louts who ruin what should be an efficient means of getting home after a good night out. therefore security has to be paid for and that cost is added to the other costs of providing the service (the drivers, the ticket inspectors, the control room staff, & the energy costs)

thirdly, the trams have to be inspected & cleaned every night ready for service the following day. this takes several hours between cleaning & servicing, not to mention the fact that overtime would have to be paid to the maintainance staff to work later than normal.

so if passengers who live close to or within walking distance of either luas lines find the cost of a nightluas ticket too much, i would ask them, would they rather stand in a queue with aggressive drunken louts, for over two hours, then probably be told by the taxi driver that they are'nt heading that direction or have a fight over who skipped the queue to even get in a taxi.

I think the nightluas service provides an excellent service taking all of these costs into consideration.

In every job, there are occupational hazards, and coping with alcos on public transport is one of them. That should not ruin civilised people's evenings who just want to get home without any dramas. There is enough security on those trams, and when I'm on the Luas, they're usually staring at passengers, rather than easing your journey.

All Friday and Saturday nights should be late night Luas on all routes, not just the city centre. Dublin is a party city now, and it's very depressing to know that apart from December, you must leave the pub/club/restaurant by 12.30 in order to avoid getting a taxi and paying through the nose for it.

You can use Nitelinks but they only go from town, and don't serve all of the city either.

[Mark Hennessy]

I was on the last tram (Green Line) on Tuesday night of this week.

Very well patronised, with almost all seats taken, good to see that when public transport is available beyond CIE's magical end time of 11:20pm, there is a demand.

There was no visible security presence but there were no unruly people about really.