Kildare media

[Derek Wheeler]

Spotted this in the leinster Leader.

Rail users say price and poor service driving commuters back to cars



« Previous « PreviousNext » Next »View GalleryPublished Date: 09 October 2008
By CONOR MCHUGH
RAIL campaigners have claimed a 20 per cent reduction in commuters at Newbridge Rail station.

Although they admit that their figures are based on anecdote and estimates, Irish Rail has not contradicted the assertion.

In fact at a recent meetingADVERTISEMENTorganised and hosted by local TD Sean Power in Leinster House between Newbridge Rail Group and Irish Rail, the company admitted the reduction was “there or thereabouts”.

“We believe there were 1200 passengers getting on the train every day in Newbridge,” Garret Cummins of NRG told the Leinster Leader. “And based on usage of the car park, we believe it’s down 20 per cent. “There was a time when you couldn’t get a parking space after 7.30am, but a colleague of mine got one at 9.15am recently.”

He made his comments on Monday last, October 6, the same day that Irish Rail introduced parking fees at their car parks.

NRG believes that this, coupled with improvements to the road networks such as the re-opened Red Cow junction and barrier free tolling, has encouraged commuters to start using their cars once again.

“Once the Red Cow re-opened, you could almost breathe on the train again,” he said. “And there was another drop when the barrier free tolling kicked in.

“There is usually a drop in summer, but when term time started up again, we haven’t noticed it being busier.

“In the meeting, Irish Rail admitted that the figures had fallen across the board. They claimed this was because there were less foreign nationals around to use them, but I don’t buy that.”

Instead NRG believe, and have campaigned hard on the issue, that the additional cost of car parking will add n500 to a commuter’s annual bill, and tip the balance in favour of using their car.

“If you drive a car, you’re guaranteed a seat, you know it will go when you want it to go and with the improvements in the road network you’re guaranteed to be moving all the time.”

Since the Group was formed almost three years ago they say that some of the more basic facilities have not been addressed, such as shelters and lighting.

“In spite of three public meetings, commitments and promises, Newbridge has fallen behind the rest of the rail network notwithstanding the fact that rail users in Newbridge pay more per mile than any other rail user in the country,” the Group say in a statement to local media.

NRG claim that they are discriminated against when compared to their fellow rail users from Sallins and Hazelhatch who have a free shuttle bus to and from the station.

Minister Power has requested Irish Rail to provide him with a progress report on infrastructural issues affecting rail users in Newbridge.

He noted that “Newbridge rail users can no longer be asked to pay top prices for very poor facilities.

“Investment in the Newbridge Station was urgently required and I look forward to a commitment from Irish Rail in making that investment”.



Im assuming that the reasons cited have come from RUI, because I noted a few quotations from Mark Gleeson in the Daily Star two weeks ago. In that article Mark stated that the fall off in passenger numbers across a few lines was, "due to road improvements and car parking charges." Ive been accused of a lot of things lads, but this is careless. Never state as fact what cannot be backed up with hard evidence. Only today in the media there was a discussion about the sudden availability of child care places after years of shortage. I didn't hear any of the contributers say that it was due to people quitting jobs or bringing their kids to work. The concensus was grounded in the rise in unemployment. This sudden rise will obviously have an impact on train services. I think both RUI and NRG have got this one wrong and it does very little for credibility. To cite the barrier free tolling on the M50 as a reason for a fall off in passenger numbers on the Kildare line is near rediculous. Think about it. Pay parking is another dubious reason considering the period that the rail figures are from.

I don't know if its mis-quoting or just sensationalism, but its weak either way. I drive up the N7 everyday and I can tell you that Ive noticed less volumes since the school term kicked back in, in September. There are 1000s of fewer jobs now and its climbing everyday.

NRG have many really decent issues that need sorting and I wish them the best with it all, but be mindful (and RUI) of comments that do no favours.

[Mark Hennessy]

Labour councillor from Sallins on todays RTE news at one said the downturn meant he could now get a seat on the train. Says numbers on the train are falling.

On the Maynooth line, numbers are visibily down, you can get on at Coolmine before 8am now and have standing room to open the Metro and read it. Obviously the trains after 8am are still very busy.

Train users are falling, I don't think there is anything too reckless about saying what people can see themselves.

The road improvements along the M7, extra lanes in M50 and soon to be completed N4 mean there'll be more people switching back to their cars IMO.

[Mark Gleeson]

The 20% fall off on the Kildare line was put to two senior Irish Rail managers in the last 2 weeks, neither denied nor challenged the number. QED there has been a reduction in passenger numbers

Why
1. Economic conditions, reduction in discretionary travel
2. Car parking charges
3. 15-20% increase in annual tickets coming shortly
4. Continuing poor service
5. Massive improvement in the Red Cow situation

Having spoken to Northern line commuters, there has been a fall off, not as significant as the Kildare line but there has been a fall off.

It was always fairly marginal between driving and the train, car parking charges where the last straw

[Thomas J Stamp]

I was able to drive, non stop, from Templemore to Malahide in 1 hour 45 mins last week. Even with my Carbon Jackboot of a Car it was cheaper than the train. Normally, I would have got Train, Luas, Dart. So there was two passenger numbers down on each.

Actually, I did it twice, so they were down four each.

I've been saying here for years that once the new motorway system is up and running you will see the shoddiness of the current rail system exposed for what it is. I know plenty of people who have car spaces going with their jobs but dont use them because of the M50. Not the innner city congestion, which is taken for granted, but the added headache of getting into it. When the final freeflow bits are in place at newlands and also in Lucan you will see journey times come down again.

No amount of KR(a)P will hide that fact. Why bother getting paying for parking at your station, get a train to the middle of nowhere only to find a tram already packed waiting for you?

Oddly enough, if Luas opens up a few more P&R sites, and ditto metro (lol) you could very well see a total collapse in IE numbers in the Kildare/Maynooth corridoors.

Again, as we have pointed out before, less customers does not mean one job loss in IE. The same trains will run, at the same times, despite being empty or full to the brim. Customers are not relevent.

[Derek Wheeler]

For christs sake did either of you read what I posted?

Im not disputing the fall off. Never even attempted to, so less of the justification on that score please.

Im saying that its disingenuous to cite improved roads and car parking charges. Bot RUIs Daily Star article and NRGs Kildare article state this as the cause. Neither mention rising unemployment, which many would believe is the real cause.

As I said, the N7 has less traffic on it at the moment. Why? Because 1000s have no need to commute anymore. I know loads of them. (mainly construction and construction related.) It only swells on rainy days for the usual obvious reasons.

The Sallins councillor (Paddy McNamara) is more accurate when citing the downturn. I know people are angry about car parking charges, but its a bit rich rolling them out now as the defacto cause of a fall off. Given time they will impact.

Why
1. Economic conditions, reduction in discretionary travel
2. Car parking charges
3. 15-20% increase in annual tickets coming shortly
4. Continuing poor service
5. Massive improvement in the Red Cow situation


With respect Mark, you mentioned only 2 of those probable causes in the Star. NRG took the same stance in the Leader. Some balance was required and a selection of probable causes shouldve been presented.

However, lets remember that the exact cause has yet to be verified by any official data. Your just speculating and I think it would have been alot more professional to speculate rather than sensationalise.

[Mark]

Very good points.

As regular posters have said time and time again the inter urban road improvements will also see a massive reduction in intercity rail passenger numbers.

The car is more convenient, cheaper and faster. Market competition eh?

Just for example, im going to be travelling to Carlow from the north fringe on the bank hollier. With suitcases and the like it never crossed my mind to take the train and Im not ashamed of it. Have the tag, can leave when I like and dont have to get out of the car. It's not laziness it plain easier.

Of course id choose the train over flying any day.

[Derek Wheeler]

I was able to drive, non stop, from Templemore to Malahide in 1 hour 45 mins last week. Even with my Carbon Jackboot of a Car it was cheaper than the train. Normally, I would have got Train, Luas, Dart. So there was two passenger numbers down on each.

Actually, I did it twice, so they were down four each.

I've been saying here for years that once the new motorway system is up and running you will see the shoddiness of the current rail system exposed for what it is. I know plenty of people who have car spaces going with their jobs but dont use them because of the M50. Not the innner city congestion, which is taken for granted, but the added headache of getting into it. When the final freeflow bits are in place at newlands and also in Lucan you will see journey times come down again.

No amount of KR(a)P will hide that fact. Why bother getting paying for parking at your station, get a train to the middle of nowhere only to find a tram already packed waiting for you?

Oddly enough, if Luas opens up a few more P&R sites, and ditto metro (lol) you could very well see a total collapse in IE numbers in the Kildare/Maynooth corridoors.

Again, as we have pointed out before, less customers does not mean one job loss in IE. The same trains will run, at the same times, despite being empty or full to the brim. Customers are not relevent.

A clear difference must be drawn between commuter rail and inter city rail. The habits and patterns are a lot different. Inter city travel is at a higher risk from roads because of the time and distances involved. And it was in fact me that has been saying that the new motorway network will have a massive impact on intercity rail. (as far back as 2005) If you want to piggy back on that belief, then fire away.:D

As for the Red Cow, well how many here drive through it every morning during Peak? I'd say none, so you have no idea how it is at the moment. While the tailback beyond the Green Isle hotel has got smaller, negociating this infamous junction is still difficult and worth avoiding if you can. Outbound in the evenings still has tailbacks to Bluebell. The off ramps from the M50 are still heavily congested. Only when all the work is complete can we ascertain an improvement in Journey times. So if our country cousins get through it once in a blue moon without any hiccups, then its hardly grounds to claim success. Try it every morning and evening for a week and you'll be back on the train with your tail between your legs. And remember that grade seperation at Newlands is still a long way off and possibly at risk, if a contract hasn't been signed. The train/bus is still the better option from Kildare if you work along the line or in the City Centre.

[Thomas J Stamp]

For christs sake did either of you read what I posted?

Im not disputing the fall off. Never even attempted to, so less of the justification on that score please.

Im saying that its disingenuous to cite improved roads and car parking charges. Your just speculating and I think it would have been alot more professional to speculate rather than sensationalise.

Well, I'm certanly not speculating, they are the reasons why I didnt use the train and I know others who are doing the same.

I've no doubt that you are as equally correct, and that job losses in the city are meaning that there are less poeple using the trian, or indeed, driving. I think in fact that Meath/Kildare is suffering the most from the downturn, there was something about it on the radio during the week.

From RUI/NRG point of view, what is wrong with highlighting the things that IE can change and reverse to attract theose who are only marignally better off driving to work? We all know that there are job losses out there, surely IE should now be trying their level best to keep those who are in work on the railways?

[Thomas J Stamp]

And it was in fact me that has been saying that the new motorway network will have a massive impact on intercity rail. (as far back as 2005) If you want to piggy back on that belief, then fire away.:D

As for the Red Cow, well how many here drive through it every morning during Peak? I'd say none

I'm not piggy-backing on your belief. Anyone can seach this forum, and yes I was saying it back as far as you have been. Bloody hell :rolleyes:.

And to answer your second question, yes I do indeed use it at peak. Every day? No, but its getting a lot better, and when you're on the M50 I find it a hell of a lot better than before.

[ThomasJ]

This morning I took a 39A from Clonsilla at 8.40. I was lucky to make Dame Street at 10:00am this morning. Yesterday it was 10:10am the day before it was 10:15am. Bear in mind this is an express bus that bypasses Blanchardstown Shopping Centre, Clonsilla Road and Blanchardstown Village that are nightmare traffic spots themselves. Imagine being on a 39 that goes through those areas at this time of morning!

If people start using the cars again instead of the train the area will not cope full stop!

Irrespective of the price rises IE WILL STILL WIN OUT in this area and Maynooth because THERE IS NO QUICKER WAY OUT!!! :mad: :(

[Mark Gleeson]

Buts its much much cheaper to go by train or bus once you are inside the Dublin short hop zone, its twice the price from beyond it and the further out you go the less time advantage the train has

[Thomas J Stamp]

Irrespective of the price rises IE WILL STILL WIN OUT in this area and Maynooth because THERE IS NO QUICKER WAY OUT!!! :mad: :(

True, as Derek and Mark both say there is a difference between long distance and short distance. My point is on the marginal differnce, and its real, eg Portlaoise. Any service that goes to city centre direct will be a cash cow, no matter what you charge at stations. Ones to Heuston will be more vunerable untill the interconnector is built.

So, IE have got to target speeds, they have to eliminate useless padding, they have to get more carraiges and more frquencey. They also have to remove potential barriers to customers - the most obvious being Car Parking Charges.

In other words, IE cannot get back those customers they have lost through job losses and such, but they can retain those customers who, thanks to changes in for example Road Tax, find that their fuel costs may be lessened by driving smaller cars, and who will feel the benefit of lower petrol prices filtering through in the coming weeks and months.

They can do this by more discounted fares, lobbying for an increase in the tax relief in seasonal tickets, by even extending the tax releif to car park charges and of course abolishing those charges altogether.

[Derek Wheeler]

I'm not piggy-backing on your belief. Anyone can seach this forum, and yes I was saying it back as far as you have been. Bloody hell :rolleyes:.

And to answer your second question, yes I do indeed use it at peak. Every day? No, but its getting a lot better, and when you're on the M50 I find it a hell of a lot better than before.

Tom, you really have to be in Dublin traffic everyday to fully understand, its a worsening mess and not an improving one, despite some routes showing slight drops in volume. Off peak the M50 is operating a little better, but at peak its now a total mess between the Toll and Finglas, northbound. Southbound was never as bad and thats because it appears the jobs are on the Southside and always have been. There's another area worth study.

As for your reaction.....****ing hell:rolleyes:
We'll agree to differ.

Anyway, my original point still stands despite the wandering. RUI are wrong to cite car park charges and improved roads as the cause of the drop in passenger numbers without factual data. The approach in the Daily Star was inaccurate. End of story. Take the criticism.

[Thomas J Stamp]

RUI are wrong to cite car park charges and improved roads as the cause of the drop in passenger numbers without factual data. The approach in the Daily Star was inaccurate. End of story. Take the criticism.

I agree it may not be the only factor, but I belive its A factor, but thats the way it goes.

I still personally prefer to hit them where they are weakest, you know?

[plant43]

There hasn't been a huge fall off in the use of Newbridge Car Park since the car parking charges came in. Heading to the station in a few minutes so I'll try and take some pictures.

[Mark Gleeson]

I will say it again

A fall off of 20% was put to IE management and they did not deny it. What more do you need? They sat there, normally they dig in an deny everything, they didn't this time

I've noticed it myself when I pass through, the car park is nowhere near as busy as it was before, yes it will be full but it takes a lot longer to fill now

There is meant to be a latent demand out there which would absorb any fall off, that hasn't happened

[chipper]

Surely switching to the car is only a viable option for those who can't avail of the taxsaver scheme and have free parking in Dublin and can carpool?

Example. Drogheda to Dublin city centre is a 60 mile round trip. With city traffic you are going to use close to two gallons of petrol which, at current prices, comes to approx €11 per day. Let's say a tenner if you have a more efficient car than my petrol guzzler. I travel 210 days per year so petrol alone would cost €2100.

The current annual rail ticket is €1750 which after taxsaver deductions costs me €927.50. Throw in €400 for station parking and I am still nearly 800 quid ahead on the cost of driving. Even without the taxsaver the costs of train or driving are roughly equal.

Driving only starts to pay off when you get a carpool to share the petrol cost.

[Mark Gleeson]

A couple traveling together to work situation the car wins on cost, fairly common. Most people don't do the numbers if they are fed up and see a price increase coming well they are going to walk away. Bear in mind there is a price on your own time and sanity

Sad fact is passengers are going elsewhere and its nearly entirely Irish Rails fault. They have failed to provide a decent reliable service, they are looking at 15-20% increase in annual ticket rates this year yet there is talk of fewer trains. Kildare line is the pits without question worst service in Dublin, I've got the graphs. Bus Eireann and others are doing well as a result. I know of several people swapping train for bus when their tickets expire.

Not everyone gets the tax benefit. Not everyone travels every day, Irish Rail don't provide a service of much use at certain times so you have to resort to the car or bus. If you are already in the car, you might as well keep going.

Plenty of reports from various stations of a drop off in demand

[Mark]

One common denominator is defo car parking charges tho.

[Derek Wheeler]

I will say it again

A fall off of 20% was put to IE management and they did not deny it. What more do you need? They sat there, normally they dig in an deny everything, they didn't this time

I've noticed it myself when I pass through, the car park is nowhere near as busy as it was before, yes it will be full but it takes a lot longer to fill now

There is meant to be a latent demand out there which would absorb any fall off, that hasn't happened

And I will say it again.

IM NOT DISPUTING THE FALL OFF. IM DISPUTING THE REASONS DUE TO A LACK OF OFFICIAL DATA.

[philip]

M50 is still cack in the eveings anyway. I go Newcastle (Co. Dublin) -> Greenhills for work each day. I just miss the morning rush but I hit the 5pm traffic square on. I go Ballymount->M50(N)->N7(W)->Newlands Cross->R136->home. The M50 northbound to the Red Cow is usually a long queue to get off there and idiots cutting in holding up lane 2 make it worse. Can't wait for them to open the M50(N)->N7(W) freeflow slip but it's months off yet.

[plant43]

One common denominator is defo car parking charges tho.

I'm not sure about that. From Newbridge, my tax saver ticket costs 4 euro a day. Petrol for a return trip to Dublin is at least 10 euro. The quickest you can get to Heuston Station from Newbridge assuming no traffic and obeying speed limits is about 45 minutes (and that's before you hit the quays). In traffic that can be up to 90 minutes. Train takes as little as 30 minutes and as many as 45.

When you think about it, the parking charges would add 33% onto my fare if I used it (I walk ~20 minutes most days), but I don't. It's still cheaper and quicker than the car.

[Mark Gleeson]

Thats assuming the train is there when you need it, after all the service is at best hourly for most of the day

Most people don't think in such logical terms, they see price go up, service is crap

[plant43]

A couple traveling together to work situation the car wins on cost, fairly common. Most people don't do the numbers if they are fed up and see a price increase coming well they are going to walk away. Bear in mind there is a price on your own time and sanity

Sad fact is passengers are going elsewhere and its nearly entirely Irish Rails fault. They have failed to provide a decent reliable service, they are looking at 15-20% increase in annual ticket rates this year yet there is talk of fewer trains. Kildare line is the pits without question worst service in Dublin, I've got the graphs. Bus Eireann and others are doing well as a result. I know of several people swapping train for bus when their tickets expire.

Not everyone gets the tax benefit. Not everyone travels every day, Irish Rail don't provide a service of much use at certain times so you have to resort to the car or bus. If you are already in the car, you might as well keep going.

Plenty of reports from various stations of a drop off in demand

Petrol has gone up by ~25% in the past year, diesel by even more. There is a price on your time too, and the train still beats the car from most places in the commuter belt.

It would be more interesting if the drop off in demand at the stations was offset by an increase in road use. There isn't any hard facts to support this though and any evidence is anecdotal at best. No wonder you only ended up in the Daily Star.

[Thomas J Stamp]

No wonder you only ended up in the Daily Star.

What's wrong with the daily star?

[Mark Hennessy]

IM DISPUTING THE REASONS DUE TO A LACK OF OFFICIAL DATA.

Was the official breakdown of passengers per train ever given out?
What is official data in the context of this argument?

If we could only speculate as to why the trains were packed over the boom years, why can't the same apply as numbers thin out?

For the record, I don't think Car parking alone is the reason though from talking to other Commuters about this it is a combinatorial reason for moving away from IE.

All of the factors mentioned in this thread, the recession, the absence of foreign workers, road improvements and the general Irish Rail incompetence are all causes though I doubt the official figures will cite the last factor :D

[plant43]

All of the factors mentioned in this thread, the recession, the absence of foreign workers, road improvements and the general Irish Rail incompetence are all causes though I doubt the official figures will cite the last factor :D

Why were none of these other factors mentioned in the articles then? Is it because the car parking charges story will sell more paper because it makes it out to be IR's fault?

[plant43]

What's wrong with the daily star?

We used to get it free in the old job I worked in. Read it every day for nearly two years, to call it a newspaper would be stretching the realms of truth, slightly. The amount of factual errors in it was staggering.

[Mark Hennessy]

Why were none of these other factors mentioned in the articles then?

I have no idea being honest.
Perhaps get in touch with the respective journos?

[Derek Wheeler]

What is official data in the context of this argument?


Thats easy Mark. Professional research carred out to ascertain why a percentage of people have stopped using services on certain lines.

Not wild assumptions like the following.

Most people don't think in such logical terms, they see price go up, service is crap

Sad fact is passengers are going elsewhere and its nearly entirely Irish Rails fault.

Will I go on?

I have no idea being honest.
Perhaps get in touch with the respective journos?

MarkG did the interview. Did he mention all the other factors that you now accept as possible causes.

Personally, getting into the tabloids is good. Its important to get the RUI name out to all kinds of reader, but not when you have to resort to assumptions and speculation parading as fact.

[ccos]

Well is there any facts to prove Mark wrong?

Someone who says someones facts don't add up should at least have some facts to counter the argument, some data perhaps, maybe somebodys got some numbers to prove Mark wrong but until they appear well pots and kettles spring to mind. I drive up the N7 everyday and I can tell you that Ive noticed less volumes since the school term kicked back in, in September Numbers please

remember all theorys are equally valid until they are disproven and anything we accept as a fact now is capable of been overturned with fresh evidence.

Now wheres me daily star thats got numbers in it

[ccos]

My reality is broader than the one you obviously inhabit.

I don't think we have ever met so what do you base your assumptions on??

[Derek Wheeler]

ah now Derek, play nice.

that's me being nice, as you know xxx

This is nice. Do you want nasty????

I suppose you're gonna lock the thread now.:D