[article] Enough Empty Trains to get to the Moon

[Mark Gleeson]

Sunday Tribune, today, front page.

Waiting for the online edition to post the full text

[Mark Hennessy]

Front page of Tribune:

http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2008/sep/28/irish-rail-enough-empty-trains-to-get-to-the-moon/

and inside:

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2008/sep/28/off-the-rails/

[Thomas Ralph]

Would be good if they'd checked their facts. For example it says there is no service from the city to Greystones before 0825, but a Rosslare service leaves Connolly at 0726 and calls there.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its not phrased well, first train to arrive Greystones does so at 8:24. First DART service arrives 9:19 (but it only runs from Bray). The first real service arrives at 10:23am! There are 6 empty Bray Greystones DART services ahead of the 8:24.

Anytime I've travelled to Greystones a significant number of passengers joined at Bray

[Thomas Ralph]

Well there's a railcar service gets to Bray in time to meet that first DART. But I suppose they have a good point overall.

[Mark Hennessy]

This was front page of the Metro today also.

[Donal Quinn]

great work guys, well done

[Mark Gleeson]

Provide a bit more detail to this

The total distance is over 516,000km per annum, this does not include all empty trains just those of interest, so the Saturday Ballina Drogheda empty isn't there, nor is the Inchicore Connolly Inchicore empty railcar. The figures can't be denied and Irish Rail haven't tried

The highlights

18:50 Howth Bray empty despite a 24 minute gap between services
22:00 Heuston Portlaois empty despite a promise to have a later train to Portlaois
4:30 Connolly Arklow empty, runs in service to Rosslare from Arklow, would be handy for the ferry
21:55 Ballina Claremorris on a Friday
21:10 Longford Connolly empty, why can't it stay the night and operate in place of the morning train from Enfield?
5:50 Connolly Enfield
4:10 Connolly Gorey, why can't it run at 22:00?

Then there is a the crazy Galway Dublin empty and Athlone Dublin empty and indeed a Dublin Athlone empty. 90 odd other ones to go with them.

[Mark Gleeson]

Today FM 16:40 tonight

I can't wait to see how Irish Rail dig themselves out of this mess

[KennyG]

Would be good if they'd checked their facts. For example it says there is no service from the city to Greystones before 0825, but a Rosslare service leaves Connolly at 0726 and calls there.

Hi, I'm the author of the Tribune piece. As Mark said, I was refering to the arrival time into Greystones rather than the departure time from the city. Any confusion is due to my phrasing rather than lack of research. It took me three weeks to carry out all the work involved.

Regards,
Ken Griffin

[ThomasJ]

Today FM 16:40 tonight

I can't wait to see how Irish Rail dig themselves out of this mess

Any chance of a podcast/recording Mark, i'm snapping I missed it!

[Mark Gleeson]

Will do shortly

Should be here http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/2992008-16.wmv about 10 minutes in


Edit

http://www.railusers.ie/podcasts/audio/29092008_LastWord_GhostTrains.mp3

[Thomas Ralph]

Hi, I'm the author of the Tribune piece. As Mark said, I was refering to the arrival time into Greystones rather than the departure time from the city. Any confusion is due to my phrasing rather than lack of research. It took me three weeks to carry out all the work involved.

Regards,
Ken Griffin

Thanks for the clarification and apologies for assuming the negative.

[Laois Commuter]

Thanks for the clarification and apologies for assuming the negative.

However, if a journalist can't phrase things clearly and concisely (when writing is his job) how can he criticise others??

LC

[KennyG]

However, if a journalist can't phrase things clearly and concisely (when writing is his job) how can he criticise others??

Just two quick points: (a) I wasn't criticising IE's mastery of the English language so there is no hypocracy involved and (b) the sentence makes perfect sense but I hadn't realised that it could be read in a different way.

Unfortunately, with the sheer amount of writing we have to do, the occasional phrase which is open to different interpretations sometimes creeps in.

Regards,
Ken

[Mark Gleeson]

I read the text in the article as meaning arrival in Greystones

[Donal Quinn]

Dick fearn had a letter in this mornings Metro in response. Movements are vital to allow for early starts...

[Mark Gleeson]

Curiously enough the key complaints is not the early starts

Its the 18:50 Howth Bray, 22:00 Heuston Portlaois and so on

Irish Rail seem to want to both ways, when they got caught spending €70,000 per annum on taxis to Longford, they relocated the drivers to Longford problem solved

Curiously the solution isn't workable elsewhere. Until IE place staff in Gorey a late evening service isn't a runner

[Laois Commuter]

Curiously enough the key complaints is not the early starts

Its the 18:50 Howth Bray, 22:00 Heuston Portlaois and so on

Irish Rail seem to want to both ways, when they got caught spending €70,000 per annum on taxis to Longford, they relocated the drivers to Longford problem solved

Curiously the solution isn't workable elsewhere. Until IE place staff in Gorey a late evening service isn't a runner

How many crews are at Longford - and how many trains start there? A Gorey starter is only likely to require two shifts - a morning and an evening. Factor in spare cover for rest days, leave, sickness, training etc, and you would need at least 4 crews to cover those two shifts - three if it was Monday - Friday only, although even this would probably require additional cover from Dublin. Less, and reliability will be poor. Cost is too great for the amount of traffic likely to be on offer.

There are (I believe) crews at Portlaoise. I share the frustration about the evening train which runs empty, but suspect that as the trains worked by the new units has varied during the introduction period so has the time of movements to and from the new depot - as well as the effect of the KRP works. As the letter in Metro says, this will be consolidated when the new fleet is fully up and running. Having said that, driving down the N7/M7 at about that time in the evening it is near empty after Naas, so again how much of a market is there is open to debate.

LC

[Thomas J Stamp]

woah there!!

When the fleet is up and running? That date is in two months. The draft timetable for December is already being poured over. So, it is either there for next year or it isnt. The trains are there. So, whats the missing element? Why is it missing? Whose job is it to ensure it isnt missing?

[Mark Hennessy]

Dick fearn had a letter in this mornings Metro in response. Movements are vital to allow for early starts...

And lots of angry letters back at him this morning....

[Mark Gleeson]

As was so well put on Tuesdays letter page, its simply bad management

[dowlingm]

Just listened to the Last Word excerpt. A masterclass from the John "What Senator Obama doesn't understand" McCain school of debating on behalf of the IE rep. I would fault Matt C for not devoting more time to what were two important issues - the ghost trains and the fare increase.

First, she lashed Mark about his lack of research and that a stopping train wouldn't work - but she didn't say why the train couldn't simply pick up at origin and destination. People love express trains! Then when Portlaoise came up it was "well there may be a point there" when she essentially rubbished the whole notion as an essential practice earlier on.

Hopefully this lady will see a comeuppance similar to that Matt handed out just after to the cereal woman.

[just thought of something else - she said the extra train wouldn't be guaranteed as it mightn't run everyday. This would differ from normal IE ops how?]

[Mark Gleeson]

I really enjoyed the cheap slagging exercise from Jane, she would do well to check her facts, we didn't do the research Ken in the Tribune did, what we did was review the research and validate the numbers as well as point out how things where on the ground. We don't take personal shots at people we stick to the issues, thats the professional thing to do.

Irish Rail at no point found a hole in the numbers, well they couldn't since it was from their own internal timetable.

It would have been good to have an extra five minutes. Irish Rail want it every which way. The story of the Longford taxis, the Claremorris ghost train.

What odds on the 18:50 Howth Bray running in service from Dec 08 ? I have personally suffered the pain of missing the 18:59 out of Pearse and the crazy 24 minute wait.

And there will be a late train to Portlaois in December funny that eh?

Its kicked off quite a fuss in the metro and long may it continue

Edit the 22:00 Heuston Portlaois runs Monday to Friday was far as we know, if it ran only randomly there would be another empty train somewhere to balance it out. It works back to Dublin as the 6:30 or 7:20 out of Portlaois. As far as I remember the 93 trains listed in the research are scheduled moves, running mon-fri mon-sat, sat only or sun only, all conditional trains as in those marked as 'path' where excluded to be fair

[Laois Commuter]

woah there!!

When the fleet is up and running? That date is in two months. The draft timetable for December is already being poured over. So, it is either there for next year or it isnt. The trains are there. So, whats the missing element? Why is it missing? Whose job is it to ensure it isnt missing?

Sorry Thomas - was that a response to my post? And I think you mean "pored", rather than the use of a jug you seem to suggest ;)

The whole fleet will not be in place in December - the 6 car trains without buffets for Commuter services plus the final 3 car set are not scheduled for delivery until the New Year. None of the six car sets are yet commisioned for service, although they are out on test. There are also two sets still in Korea having been returned due to damage in transit. My money is on an extension to the current timetable to February.

In response to Mark G, the 2200 Heuston - Portlaoise empty is I believe the stock of the 1805(?) Westport - Dublin. Westport services did not change over at one step, and as we are all aware the 0630 off Portlaoise also did not operate for some time; the 0720 also ran light from Dublin for a period, as it used a Dublin based crew, until Portlaoise was brought up to strength. So, even though a path may have been in the timetable, the train may not have operated for a significant period. It is a bit rich to claim that it will run from December on the back of your radio interview - it has been known about and promised for some time now.

LC

[losexpectation]

so is there not a malahide howth junction bray train 5 five minutes after that howth bray train?

[weehamster]

Will do shortly

Should be here http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/2992008-16.wmv about 10 minutes in


Edit

http://www.railusers.ie/podcasts/audio/29092008-LastWord-GhostTrains.mp3

Missed this post. :o

Wow, :eek: isnt she very aggressive. Typical Irish Rail attitude though. So who is this Jane. Is she new? Has poor aule Barry been let go for not being
aggressive enough. :D

[Mark Gleeson]

Barry on holidays to appears. There is a staff of at least 3 in the office. Thats as much as I'm going to say. The crew in Belfast use a public relations firm which is clearly cheaper.

When the 6:30 Portlaoise Heuston got back running it did so starting from the depot in Portlaois and eliminated another empty run from Heuston. About mid June the 7:20 also started from the depot in Portlaoise.

Within the current arrangements its pretty hard to get a train back to Portlaoise as a service train and then the depot. They can swap the 18:05 and also 6:15 services upon arrival beyond that its empty trains to get stock up and down.

[weehamster]

But she acted as if she was a know it all.

So she was just simply PR as well, who, at the end of the day, has no say in anyway shape or form got anything to do with the running of any rail service. Just another Irish Rail 'We are right, you are wrong' personal.

Which brings me to a point which I am starting to get p'd off with. Where are the regional managers who are the ones who are really in charge, who are the ones responsible for the "Ghost" Trains among many, many others problems. Why aren't they on radio explaining their actions instead of hiding behind Barry who give his usual Irish Rail is 'whiter than white at a price that's right' speech.

[Mark Gleeson]

It is Irish Rail policy to deny everything even when faced with there own documentation. No one is ever right and Irish Rail is never in the wrong. Numerous very newsworthy stories have never made it to press as a result.

The corporate communications office manages all communication, not strange for a big company. But normally it would be a senior operational manager who does the talking. Back in the day of the DART project the Chief Engineer was the one and only source of media comment.

Scanned in the letters page from Metro
http://www.railusers.ie/images/metro_02102008.jpg

[Thomas J Stamp]

Sorry Thomas - was that a response to my post? And I think you mean "pored", rather than the use of a jug you seem to suggest ;)

The whole fleet will not be in place in December - the 6 car trains without buffets for Commuter services plus the final 3 car set are not scheduled for delivery until the New Year. None of the six car sets are yet commisioned for service, although they are out on test. There are also two sets still in Korea having been returned due to damage in transit. My money is on an extension to the current timetable to February.

LC

'Twas indeed a reply to your post. I'll overlook your shocking bad manners re spelling as you may not know its not the done thing on internet forums. What is harder to overlook is your failure to reply to my point.

IE have been heralding the introduction of the two hourly timetable for years now, and indeed have planned for it to happen this December. You, being a rail industry chappie of some sort or other, know this as well as i do. The fact that they cant even meet their own long-term apsirations is my point. We know all about the two sets back in Korea, the failure of IE to commission the 6-car sets here only adds to their incompetance.

I never said the fleet was all here - I said the date for it is December. The fact is they will miss that date.

The commuter sets are not relevent to that date, and never were, as they were simply a bonus add on. You know thats a red herring, and a dead stinky one at that. That leaves the two sets in Korea and the final three car set. They in themselves are not enough to halt the programme, as all you need do is simplly not decommission a few extra mark three sets

The real reason is resistance, on both sides of thre union managment devide.

[sean]

About the angry Portarlington commuter in the letters page above, how long does it take to get through one of those ticket checks in Heuston?

I'd certainly agree it sounds nuts that anyone who's 20 minutes late on arrival at the platform should be delayed in any significant way making their way to the street.