Coolmine - south bound ticket machines and why to never board without a ticket

[Coolmine99]

As anyone using the recently installed south bound ticket machines at Coolmine probably knows, these are of mixed reliability (i.e. either not working, or accepting laser / C Card only). I tried to use these on Monday morning, and ended up boarding the train without a ticket hoping to pay in Peasrse as the machines appeared to have frozen and were 100% not working. This option was also chosen by several other commuters in the queue. This was reasonable course of action given the torrential rain, and the fact that the barriers were down. Wrong move - as I came foul of a rather rude offical at Pearse at the otehr end. A couple of things:

I know I was in breach of the famous "bye-laws" (which, incidentally are not to be found on Irish Rails website). However, you would expect some flexibility in this case. I produced a recently expired annual card (my second consecutive one) and last week's weekly ticket, as well as explaining the situation at Coolmine that morning. Not exactly the modus operandi of a serial fare evader.

The attitude of the guy at Peasrse was nothing short of a disgrace. He firslty said he would ring the station to check this out, but said I needed to give my name and address first. He wouldn't explain why he needed this - despite my repeated requests for such personal information - so I might have been a bit (ahem) forgetful exactly where I lived exaclty, knowing where this was going. Low and behold, after I gave my details, he proceeded to tell me a fine will be in the post. He refused to ring the station as he had promised, and proceeded to walk off from my protenstations - ognoring me as if I wasn't there. Great way of treating 'customers'.

To be honest, the combindation of the torrential rain, over crowded trains that apear to run on random time table (never mind the complete lack of information when trains run late / don't show up, missing or wrong information on th train panels, etc), rude and ignorant IR staff, some of whom have personal hygiene issues, is making a 1.5 hour commute by car from Coolmine to town starting to look attractive.....:(

[Mark Hennessy]

I've noticed that the machines with the new software are very slow.

There is no apparent response from the machines a lot of the time and they are not very customer friendly at all in their current operation (kinda like Irish Rail in general).

It is typical of the Irish Rail laziness that these machines were released to the public without any idea of the effect of the updated software.

I'm not sure of the appeals procedure but there has to be a way to appeal the buy laws as you are not a fare dodger. Certainly putting your case in writing to Paul Slowey would be a start. You should also consider drafting a letter to your local TD's alerting to them the fact that people are being exposed to fines through no fault of their own.

Paul Slowey
Customer Relations Manager
Northern and Eastern
Iarnród Éireann
Connolly Station
Dublin 1

[Mark Gleeson]

The bye laws require that you intended to defraud the company, which you did not.

The bye laws do not require you to even use the TVM's. You presented yourself in good time and the booking office facilities where inoperative. As Mark has noted there is a sluggishness with the new software, indeed I crashed a TVM recently when I asked for a monthly ticket

The revenue protection unit is based in Connolly, details on the letter you will get.

Even if it goes to court in this case it is clear Irish Rail failed in its duty of care to ensure the ticket vending machines where serviceable. Indeed there may be a data protection act issue as well since you have a right to know why your name was being taken

The law is here http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/legal.php

[Coolmine99]

Lads, thanks for that.

You presented yourself in good time and the booking office facilities where inoperative. .

Well, technically I could have waited for the trains to pass, go back accross the rails, get a ticket from the manned station and get a later train. The concept of people arriving on time for work is therefore lost on IR.

I did intend to write to IR on this, I was livid at my treatment. Although I applied the same dishonesty displayed by the ticket inspector in being inventive with my address. So I'm reluctant to put it in writing to them (expecting a reply to my address!!). I dodn't want the hassle of challenging penalty. TBH, I have never received as much as parking ticket, so the whol incedent was embarrassing, degrading and frankly unpleasant.

I have used this service since 2001. I have never boarded a train without a valid ticket, this was a once off. It is truly shocking to see how the book can be thrown at you.... next time I will say I got on at Broombridge, as the automatons at Pearse will happily issue you with a ticket for that station... :)

[Mark]

If you are wearing a suit and say you got on a Broombridge they might not believe you.

[Mark Hennessy]

The concept of people arriving on time for work is therefore lost on IR.

Tell me about it.

[andyl222]

Goodluck with getting your fine quashed. If you read back to one of my first posts you'll find i was in a similar situation at coolmine when a train arrived early. Only 2 months ago, a garda arrived at my door with a warrant saying i owed irish rail 200 euro. Lo and behold the whole mess unravels, it would seem after my initial emails back and forth with John Byrne in Connolly station my case was put forward for prosecution. I never received a letter from irish rail about the fine, emails from Mr.Byrne were all i had to confirm the fine was still valid. then I never got a summons for the court case, so obviously wasnt aware i was meant to be in court. a year later this gard shows up on my doorstep saying the fine i owe is 140 euro for irish rail and then 60 euro court costs and on top of this i was convicted in my absence. An absolute nightmare, i am of course appealing, the conviction has been set aside and my next court date is in 3 weeks or so. It is a disgrace that irish rails ineptitude and general haphazard manner results in ordinary decent people getting dragged through the already overrun irish courts system.
Again i hope you get your fine quashed, but i fear it won't be that simple. Keep us posted.

[Colm Moore]

I imagine that issuing summons is for the courts, not Irish Rail.

[andyl222]

I imagine that issuing summons is for the courts, not Irish Rail.
The reason i never got a summons was due to irish rail's ineptitude when they took my address incorrectly. So I didnt receive a notification stating the fine was still active or a summons to court due to this error on irishrail's part.

[ccos]

The concept of people arriving on time for work is therefore lost on IR.

maybe they all commute by public transport:D

[Coolmine99]

So it looks like I might expect a burly Garda on my door step in the newar future? Or should I just come clean and try and sort this out before it gets out of hand?

[Mark Gleeson]

Long run it is probably cheaper to pay the fine now, even if you win in court it will cost you at least a half day off work and potentially fees for legal advice and so on. Of course you could lose and pay much much more.

Interestingly the Luas bye laws prohibit you from traveling if all the TVM's at a stop are broken!

Under the bye laws Irish Rail have a fully legit collar, we don't like it but the guy in Pearse caught you traveling with no ticket from a staffed station. The legal requirements of the fine where satisfied. The matters of rudeness should be addressed to Customer Services, Northern and Eastern, Connolly Station, Dublin 1.

If this was 3 years ago, I'd give good odds on a win for you but since the Rail Safety Act 2005 rolled in and Irish Rail had a string of non convictions due to the pay and the other end practice, they have change the game plan and rolled out a zero tolerance game and plenty of posters telling you about it.

Edit 21 days are up so the summons is in the post by now

[Coolmine99]

An update - rang Pearse this morning. My fine is being processed and being sent out to my (ahem) wrong address, so i corrected this - I didn't fancy a Garda visit after missing court appearances years down the line, particularly after reading andyl222's experience. Now, if only I had of been as forgetful about my name as well.....I will definitely appeal, and am sending a strongly worded letter to David Finlay at Pearse (Customer Services). Would the fact the guy acted like a complete ingnoramus and breached IR's customer charter help my case? Anyone know if appealing apenalty fare increases it if unsuccessful? I'm sure the details will all be revealed soon.....

[Mark Gleeson]

While Irish Rail where lazy, ignorant and rude they have the whole legal side in their favour. There was a staffed ticket office at the station

Fine is a matter for the judge worse case the fine is 1000 euro, but it is a conviction so that may have other problems for your future. Max for the penalty notice is 100 euro and it disappears there and then never to surface again.

End of the day in nearly every case Irish Rail have always left themselves slightly open to losing. But it all depends on the judge on the day and that is not the kind of thing we are going to guess about. If you do end up in court seek professional legal advice.

[Coolmine99]

OK, thanks. My stock answer in future is that I got on in Broombridge - this seems to work and is legit, as there is no ticketing there at present. Although me being the honest git I am I said I got on at Coolmine. Lesson learned - maybe €50 the poorer, but will go down with a fight.....:) .

[Mark Gleeson]

As I have posted you never know with the judge. They might have a legit collar but the attitude and general administrative mess that followed is unacceptable. Once you actually get the notice, find out the due date and then argue and you never know. Send any letters by registered post and keep copies.

Don't try the Broombridge excuse, they have been known to send staff out there early morning

[Colm Moore]

Don't try the Broombridge excuse, they have been known to send staff out there early morningYeah, 6-12 months for perjury would be wasted on a case like this.

[Coolmine99]

Lads - relax. I'm not up for a stint in the Joy. I'll read what comes out with the penalty fare - if the appeal is pointless, and means I pay more if I lose (like driving penalty points), then I'll cough up the fine. Although, I like the idea of delivering €50 in 5000 x 1c pieces... keep em busy for a while.:)

[grainne whale]

Check what bye law you have broken as written on the fine and double check it as they do get their by law numbers wrong, also check that the time of the offence is correct.If this information is not correct then the fine is invalid,write and tell them so.! Best of luck.

[Colm Moore]

Lads - relax. I'm not up for a stint in the Joy. I'll read what comes out with the penalty fare - if the appeal is pointless, and means I pay more if I lose (like driving penalty points), then I'll cough up the fine. Although, I like the idea of delivering €50 in 5000 x 1c pieces... keep em busy for a while.:)
That doesn't work - the most anyone has to accept in any transaction is 50 coins.

[andyl222]

had my day in court today, and i'm delighted to say my case got thrown out :) i'm very relieved because the fines were getting bigger n bigger as the day progressed. 500 euro n 100 euro costs, thats pricey. Alot of fare evasion cases today,a few of which were just given the probation act, no fine or anything.

[Mark Hennessy]

had my day in court today, and i'm delighted to say my case got thrown out :) i'm very relieved because the fines were getting bigger n bigger as the day progressed. 500 euro n 100 euro costs, thats pricey. Alot of fare evasion cases today,a few of which were just given the probation act, no fine or anything.

Nice one, the muppetry from Irish Rail in your case was unbelievable.

[ThomasJ]

Can I be so bold as to ask andyl222 what was the reason for it being thrown out?

[andyl222]

Can I be so bold as to ask andyl222 what was the reason for it being thrown out?
the solicitor had NO eveidence against me,so they couldnt proceed. judge just threw it out.

[Mark Gleeson]

So escape by technicality not on the merits of the case.

Any other day and you would have likely been hit with the €500 fine

[andyl222]

So escape by technicality not on the merits of the case.

Any other day and you would have likely been hit with the €500 fine
Possibly, but i'm too happy to care. This has been hanging over me for a year and a half so now that its over i'm just happy to relax.

[ThomasJ]

So escape by technicality not on the merits of the case.

Any other day and you would have likely been hit with the €500 fine

But short of checking the security cameras on the platforms for evidence how can this be proven?

[andyl222]

So escape by technicality not on the merits of the case.

Any other day and you would have likely been hit with the €500 fine

And also I did note that there were several cases similar to mine where a person got on a train due to an unforeseen circumstance and when they explained themselves the judge agreed that it didnt sound like fair evasion and they were given the probation act and no fine what so ever. So it would seem that people can win against irish rail,and not just through technicalities.

[Mark Gleeson]

The official who issued the notice typically gives evidence of the incident involved.

Its the same as the classic I got off since the garda who caught me didn't show up in court.

Be very clear here, if you board at a staffed station without a ticket the full force of the law will be applied. I know of a few people in the court today. End of the day if you boarded without a ticket at a staffed station there is a case, the law has been broken.

You might get lucky, through a combination of Irish Rail messing up or the judge being friendly. Or you might get up to €1000 fine, a criminal conviction and a loss of income from a half day off

[andyl222]

The official who issued the notice typically gives evidence of the incident involved.

Its the same as the classic I got off since the garda who caught me didn't show up in court.

Be very clear here, if you board at a staffed station without a ticket the full force of the law will be applied. I know of a few people in the court today. End of the day if you boarded without a ticket at a staffed station there is a case, the law has been broken.

You might get lucky, through a combination of Irish Rail messing up or the judge being friendly. Or you might get up to €1000 fine, a criminal conviction and a loss of income from a half day off
And I have not disputed that fact at all, I was simply trying to point out that the glorious irish rail is not infallable in the eyes of the law. I'm in no way trying to condone fare evasion or anything like that, I was simply trying to pint out that sometimes irishrail get it wrong and a judge will rectify that.

[Coolmine99]

Good result andy, just make sure you have aticket the next time.:D (I know I will, even if it means being late for work)

Still no sign of my penalty fare, so they're obviously as sloppy in issuing these are they are with running services in general... I have rang and written to IR about it, so the ball is in their court (no pun intended).

[Coolmine99]

Well, no sooner had I written the post above than a letter came from IR advising me of my penalty fare. Plenty of bold lettering advising me of the seriousness of the offence, €1000 fine, prison time, taking my wife and kid etc. Mind you, I had written to them complaining about the circumstances and my frankly disgraceful treatment at Pearse. No mention of this in their lettrr, so I am finally convinced IR don't give a toss about their 'customers'. At least I know now.

I will appeal it, am also thinking of getting the local TD involved. This is a disgraceful treatment of ordinary decent people. As for the €50 fine, they will be getting this in as much change as I can get together.....

[TRYCOOL6]

firstly i never heard of a station called Peasrse and secondly did it not cross your mind to go over to the ticket office and get a ticket from the clerk,or was the torrenecial rain affecting your brain, why do pepole like you think the world revolves around yourself, why dont you get up earlyer so you will have enough time to get your ticket just like most people do , maybe the 50 euro fine will cop you on

[Thomas J Stamp]

firstly i never heard of a station called Peasrse and secondly did it not cross your mind to go over to the ticket office and get a ticket from the clerk,or was the torrenecial rain affecting your brain, why do pepole like you think the world revolves around yourself, why dont you get up earlyer so you will have enough time to get your ticket just like most people do , maybe the 50 euro fine will cop you on

Welcome to the board Mr Cool. Someone who rightly points out the correct spelling of Pearse Station shouldn't make a total arse of themselves spelling torrential and earlier incorrectly.

Maybe the infraction you just got with your very first post will ensure you're civil to people around here.

[awhooley]

Welcome to the board Mr Cool. Someone who rightly points out the correct spelling of Pearse Station shouldn't make a total arse of themselves spelling torrential and earlier incorrectly.

Maybe the infraction you just got with your very first post will ensure you're civil to people around here.

hahahahahahahahahaha :D

[Coolmine99]

firstly i never heard of a station called Peasrse What are you, a primary school teacher.

and secondly did it not cross your mind to go over to the ticket office and get a ticket from the clerk

No it didn't - the common (mis)conception was that you could pay the other end. Now i know.


or was the torrenecial rain affecting your brain Well , it was Monday morning. I was focussed on getting t owork on time.

why do pepole like you think the world revolves around yourself, why dont you get up earlyer so you will have enough time to get your ticket WTF?? And it's "earlier", BTW:D

maybe the 50 euro fine will cop you on Thank you for your words of wisdom, and looking forward to more positive posts from you - maybe with better diction, grammar and spelling.

[Thomas J Stamp]

What are you, a primary school teacher.



No it didn't - the common (mis)conception was that you could pay the other end. Now i know.


Well , it was Monday morning. I was focussed on getting t owork on time.

WTF?? And it's "earlier", BTW:D

Thank you for your words of wisdom, and looking forward to more positive posts from you - maybe with better diction, grammar and spelling.

Word of warning - retaliation also gets infractions.

If you have problems with being attacked personally either hit the report post button or PM me about it. Do not respond to attacks, let me deal with them.

Now, everyone chill......