Rail Station for Croke Park

[Mark Hennessy]

I can't see how this could safely work.

Why not focus on delivering a top notch Drumcondra station / metro interchange?

Too much turf wars between RPA / IE ?

Railway station planned for Croker
10 August 2008 By Dick O’Brien
A new railway station is being planned for Croke Park in Dublin. Iarnród Eireann is expected to have high-level discussions with the GAA to open the new railway station at the GAA headquarters.

It is anticipated that the GAA would make a significant contribution towards its development costs, given that the new station has the potential to deliver a large amount of fans to the stadium on match days.

Croke Park is situated adjacent to the Sligo railway line, which serves stations in Boyle, Carrick-on-Shannon, Mullingar, Enfield, Kilcock, Maynooth and Leixlip. A spur on the line serving Dunboyne and Navan is planned for completion in 2015. The line terminates in Connolly station in Dublin, which is in turn connected with the Wexford and Belfast lines.




However, the real benefit of the station will come with the construction of the planned rail interconnector between Heuston station and Pearse station in the city centre. This has the potential to allow Iarnród Eireann to deliver trains directly to Croke Park from locations such as Cork, Limerick, and Galway. The interconnector is scheduled for completion in 2015.

The main problem facing any plan for the new station is the logistical challenge of moving large numbers of fans on and off trains on match days. Croke Park has a maximum capacity of 82,500 people, and were a new station to prove viable it would have to be able to accommodate large numbers of matchgoers.

[Mark Gleeson]

Station at Croke Park is totally unworkable on safety and crowd control grounds

Drumcondra is the logical and safe solution, of course there is nothing too far wrong with Connolly at 15 minutes walk. It is considered better to provide a distance between stadium and station to make crowd control easier.

This is probably part of the GAA's make Corke Park carbon neutral plan. Maybe they should invest the money is buying a few Mk3 coach sets so there would be trains to run specials to GAA events, Irish Rail never run enough and they always sell out. Nice charter business there

[essoII]

I was always under the impression that there was already a halt for passenger trains beside the croker. Is that not already used in special services to bring passengers to GAA matches?

[Mark Hennessy]

I was always under the impression that there was already a halt for passenger trains beside the croker. Is that not already used in special services to bring passengers to GAA matches?

No there's nothing currently but the train lines are either side of the stadium.

Purely from a crowd control perspective I cannot see how this would work.
This is a total non-story.

[Mark Gleeson]

Maynooth line and frequently extra maynooth trains stops in Drumcondra

Current Drumcondra station is unable to cope with the numbers. IE tend to split specials so trains from Belfast, Wexford & Waterford always use Connolly. Cork, Kerry always use Heuston. Limerick and Galway sometimes use Connolly. So the supporters from different teams use different stations which avoids confusion

[markpb]

Let's be blunt for a minute, this is nothing to do with health and safety. Stations near statia are operate safely elsewhere. Old Trafford (76,000) has a train station and tram station. Real Madrid's stadium (80,000) has a metro stop five minutes walk away. In the case of Manchester, the tram station is ancient and tiny but the staff do a perfectly good job of keeping everyone safe.

Drumcondra's location is fine but the station would need a complete rebuild in order to be any use. Even if that happened, Irish Rail staff just don't care and would make a mess of it.

[Mark Hennessy]

Let's be blunt for a minute, this is nothing to do with health and safety. Stations near statia are operate safely elsewhere. Old Trafford (76,000) has a train station and tram station. Real Madrid's stadium (80,000) has a metro stop five minutes walk away. In the case of Manchester, the tram station is ancient and tiny but the staff do a perfectly good job of keeping everyone safe.

Drumcondra's location is fine but the station would need a complete rebuild in order to be any use. Even if that happened, Irish Rail staff just don't care and would make a mess of it.

I think the article hints at a station in Croke Park itself which I can't see how it would fit in.

As I said in the first post, re-building Drumcondra properly to allow Irish Rail and Metro passengers (!) ease of access would be a better solution than spending money on a new station within Croke Park in my opinion.

[Mark Gleeson]

Tram and metro is a different ball game, typically you have no choice its either platform 1 or 2 doesn't matter all the trains are going to the same places

When you throw in long distance to multiple different destinations things get very confusing and then you have issues of controlling who gets to the platform.

Connolly has the old suburban entrance which is frequently used as a dedicated entrance for special services. Heuston has its secondary concourse.

[Colm Moore]

At least the GAA have put a bus-based park and ride scheme in place from some GAA club grounds to Croke Park.

[Brian Condron]

Let's be blunt for a minute, this is nothing to do with health and safety. Stations near statia are operate safely elsewhere. Old Trafford (76,000) has a train station and tram station. Real Madrid's stadium (80,000) has a metro stop five minutes walk away. In the case of Manchester, the tram station is ancient and tiny but the staff do a perfectly good job of keeping everyone safe.

I used live near Old Trafford. The tram station is over 1 km from the ground, beside the cricket ground on the Altrincham line. There's a few pubs on the way to disperse some of the crowd. On a normal day the tram station may be small and unstaffed, but on a match day the usual entrance is closed and special turnstiles are used. There are usually 30 or so armed police dressed in full riot gear to keep the crowd flowing. Other tram stations nearby are closed off. It works reasonably well, never as smooth as Lansdowne Road though in my experience. The arrangement was far from perfect. Was a right pain when a match coincided with my evening commute.

There is also another tram station which is just as close as the Old Trafford station on the Eccles line. I wouldn't usually be over that side of the stadium but anecdotally it wasn't as busy.

To the best of my knowledge the mainline train station is never used. My usual train home used the same line and I never saw any activity there, even on match days.

[Donal Quinn]

back to croker

this is a non-story alright but just to point out that there is plenty of room for a new station near croke park on the line that runs under the canal and and on to the new docklands station

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=2160406

given that the docklands station is now to be retained (i think) surely this comes into play again?

Also worth pointing out that this station could have exits on both drumcondra and on Jones road. for safety they could close the jones road exits on match days

drumcondra exit would be nice and close to existing drumcondra station as well as drumcondra metro stop just north of existing drumcondra station

On a broader level part of the problem here is that there is a little understanding of what the interconnector actually does. "a 5.2k tunnel between docklands and heuston" means nothing - whereas showing the new dart routes criscrossing the city would mean so much more. The general public looks at transport plans with only one thing in mind - how will this affect me?

[Mark Gleeson]

If you are going to do that you might as well put it alongside Whitworth Ave and get a pedestrian link to Drumcondra station

You can't get to Heuston from the Midland line and access to Connolly is very tight

Much better off spending the cash on Drumcondra.

[ACustomer]

The Docklands line runs under the new Canal end stand at Croke Park. As far as I can see the main supporting structures are in places quite close to the tracks and I doubt if you could build platforms, especially as they would have to be quite wide, given the large crowds.

Was there any thought given to a station when they were building the stand? Somehow I doubt it, and it may be too late now.

[Mark]

After working on a proposal for the Lansdowne Road stadium I can tell you that citing stations as close to stadia as possible is not recommended. A certain distance is advised to prevent crowd congestion and allow for the safe circulation of people to and from the different entrances and exits.

Perhaps IE/Croker are looking at it for non match days? The conference facilities can be heavily during the weekday sometimes. If a station were built for that reason then it would have to be closed on match days. Only a massive outlay in space, structure and crowd management on match days would enable it to be usefull at large scale events.

Drumcondra is kind of a confined site for expansion of the IE station and platforms but that might all change with the RPA work planned. Entrance through school of deaf site etc.

[dowlingm]

Do the northern Connolly specials impact Connolly operations much? If so, could a "matchday platform" at the south end of Clontarf Road (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=N+Strand+Rd,+Dublin,+Co.+Dublin,+Ireland&sll=53.359849,-6.23148&sspn=0.290533,0.617981&ie=UTF8&ll=53.359215,-6.235825&spn=0.00227,0.004828&t=h&z=18) where I believe there are sidings now provide a route to Croker at about the same distance?

As for Croke Park - it will be interesting to see what the brains trust come up with. The curved track and bridges in the area makes a new platform a no-no in a lot of likely places like here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=N+Strand+Rd,+Dublin,+Co.+Dublin,+Ireland&sll=53.359849,-6.23148&sspn=0.290533,0.617981&ie=UTF8&ll=53.361309,-6.246189&spn=0.00227,0.004828&t=h&z=18). A platform cantilevered over the canal opposite Clonmore Terrace might work if the object was to segregate the traffic but how does that relate to the interconnector and Maynooth electrification?

In any event, moving train end points nearer Croke Park may not suit the supporters whose matchday routines are often entwined with various public houses in the city centre.

My suspicion is that is might be an annual story fed to the press at times that complaints from nearby residents peak...

[Jack O'Neill]

You have to bear in mind that on match day (depending who is playing, of course) a lot of fans travel by train to Heuston on Scheduled trains, (I don't know if there are any match specials run?) To be fair to these fans, they have to traipse up and down the Quays and surrounding neighbourhoods, precariously in my mind, to get to Croker. People have also been killed driving up and down to Croke Park on match day, anything that can get these fans safely and from the match is to be welcomed.

I agree that under the Davin Stand, where the lines run, seems a bit tight for the numbers of fans that would be congregating waiting on the trains. But with a bit of human engineering, eg a holding area before allowing ticket holders on to the platform and waiting trains could be accomplished. There would be no need for ticketing facilities, as return tickets would have been bought at the origin. I believe there is space under the stand for platforms etc. Perhaps the GAA could engage in a bit of PPP on this too?

The station in Croke Park would only be used on match day. These match specials on Saturday & Sunday to Croker would bring extra revenue to IR, which is to be welcomed. It would also allow for passangers on scheduled services to Heuston to travel unemcumbered on packed out trains and not affect any platform conflicts.

I also wish agree with previous posts that Drumcondra must be upgraded, full Metro connectivity, a new station at Phibsboro and Liffey Junction, with Luas connectivity.

Lets be selfish and seek everything possible.

Cheers

[Colm Moore]

Of course aren't the residents of Ballybough as entitled to a DART station as anyone else? The most practical location being between Ballybough Road and St. James Avenue.

The current Drumcondra station was meant to be at Elizabeth Street, but the good Burghers of Drumcondra UDC objected to such a secondary location and insisted on the current location.

I concur with a Whitworth Road location for a platform on the lower line, but it is a little remote. If only the Metro North station was a little further south - that gets into demolition issues though.

[dowlingm]

These match specials on Saturday & Sunday to Croker would bring extra revenue to IR, which is to be welcomedWell yes, but also extra costs in fuel and driver personnel. There are some services which are more trouble than they are worth, which is why we have so much less rail freight these days. Has an analysis ever been done on the cost/benefit to IE of special trains?

[stupido]

A station can be provided at very little cost under the stand at the canal end. It was part of the design of the stadium. there would be no need to buy land. The current bridges over the canal can be utilised to give people access from the city side of the canal, as is the case in accessing some of the stands.

All that needs to be done is build the platforms in the space provided.

Also the station would serve as a local station as part of the new upgraded dart service to Maynooth. The station would not be for stadium use only.

Drumcondra would become a commuter station with metro connections. Croke Park a DART station (another metro in effect).

[Mark Gleeson]

Sadly the station at the Canal End is another urban myth, it doesn't fit. I've been through by train and its way too tight, Ok you can fit a platform in but it won't be full length, barely half length, you would need a 210 m long one. Can't be accessed by rail from the Heuston side, Drumcondra can

This yet another GAA pr exercise to keep the locals appeased being sold as the Croke Park carbon neutral line. If the GAA was serious about public transport use it would be engaging with Irish Rail to run more special services to matches, possibly making a small contribution to the costs to make it possible

The talk is clearly of a station at the Hill 16 end, which is going to be virtually impossible.

Question is, is it better to stick with international best practice and safety by having a station 5-10 minutes away (Drumcondra) which is also accessible to the local population or a tiny cramped solution usable less than 30 days a year. Drumcondra is to be massively redeveloped in the coming years so why waste money on another station.

[stupido]

next time you are down for a game have a look at the area under the canal. A station can easily be accomodated. Also check out the ground floor plans of the stand.

The whole issue of the canal line is a contention one. Although it is currently the Drumcondra line that the interconnector is proposed to utilise, a full dart service and commuter services using the same line will result in the same problems that currently exist with the northern line (lack of loops and signalling). If IE want to expand the commuter service AND have a DART rapid service AND intercity trains then they will have to use the Canal branch. Stations will be built at Croke park and Botanic Avenue (to link with future LUAS line) and the line will go from Greystones to Maynooth. A link will not be required to Heuston from the west (but can easily be installed if required) but there will be the option of running services through the interconnector tunnel under current track layout plans.

The reason Drumcondra station is part of the interconnector route currently is a political one. The jibe about the luas lines not linking up hurt many politicians. The term 'joined up thinking' is on every PR persons brief notes. That is why every project has an emphasis on 'hubs' and 'links'. The thought of promoting a project which does not link in with other services at the moment is politically unthinkable.

Once the interconnector is built the DART will divert to it. I have no doubt about it. It is a logical development. This is part of the longer term plan. The other track would have to be quadrupled if both services were to share it, and this would be very difficult.

[Mark Gleeson]

Please do not stray from topic

Canal End is not a goer

The supporting columns for the Canal End stand come far too close to the rail line on the canal side at the outer ends of the stand they are at minimum clearance, less than 1 m. For a platform minimum 2.5 m would be required, larger given the crowds. Canal End would only serve to move people to/from Maynooth. Drumcondra covers every destination in the country save the Northern line.

Safety people would freak out totally at a station at the Canal End.

Of course the key element is the station would contribute nothing to the community

[Donal Quinn]

There are two seperate issues here

1. does there need to be a station at or around drumcondra/croker on the line that runs from liffey junction to the docklands via the canal end of croker

i think there might be because it seems as though the docklands surface station will be retained for Navan services and this station would allow reasonable connectivity with metro north and the DART services on the Maynooth-Bray line (although there are other interchange opps up at clonsilla etc)

also if built to proper spec it would provide more capacity for croker on match days, carbon footprint blah blah

2. where should that station be

there are 4 options
a. liffey junction - curves here don't seem to allow it and its too far for interchange
b. whitworth rd - not a runner as the line is in a deep pit here between the canal and whitworth rd itself - no room at all
c. canal end - space under the station is neither wide enough or long enough and there are major safety issues with a station so close - distance is needed, also looses out on interchange

d. between drumcondra and jones rd
plenty of wide open spaces for easily constructed big platforms. exit to drumcondra is close enough for interchange and the jones rd one provides access to corker on non-match days. idea would be to close that entrance on match days for safety and have crowd funnell around to drumcondra entrance
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=2160406 (you may have to hit refresh to see it properly)

in terms of priorities this si clearly on the long finger - drumcondra station revamp should come first and this should probably only be considered once interconnector and metro north are making progress