2009 Timetable!

[paddyb180285]

On another thread, someone mentioned a rumour that there will be a major change from the current timetable coming about in 2009. It was something along the lines of clockface timetabling. What is the meaning of clockface? What will this mean for places like Drogheda, Maynooth and Gorey? Will this have any affect on the DART frequency?

[Thomas J Stamp]

clockface means that your train leaves at the same time every hour (or two hours)

with the amount of 22k trains here we should be expecting trains every two hours to and from Limerick for example, all leaving at xx.25 from Heuston, with an extra one at 18.25 in the evening and similar in the morning from Limerick.

same for Dart, suburban rail, but here you are talking about knowing the train will leave every ten, twenty mins starting at xx.00 or xx.05

We have a model optimal timetable. The current timetable, if you saw how it was put together, is not helpfull and IE will soon scrap the entire thing.

[paddyb180285]

In other words, clockface timetabling is where there is a fixed pattern to the timetable of each route. The only route (I know of anyway) that has this method of timetabling is the Connolly-Sligo route. Maybe, the Enterprise has this as well. At the moment, the current timetable on most routes including the DART seems to be quite random with 5 minute gaps here and 25 - 30 minute gaps there. For example (if the rumour is true that is), trains will be pulling up at Dalkey at at a fixed amount of minutes past the hour on peak and the same off peak.

[chris]

Maybe, the Enterprise has this as well.

Enterprise is only clockface on Sunday, and not completely regular

[paddyb180285]

Gorey services seem to be restricted to peak times where gaps between services can exceed 5 hours. In other words, there would be three services on peak between 6:00 and 9:00 AM and then there wouldn't be a service until 2:00 PM. If these rumours are true, will this be different in the 2009 timetable?

[ThomasJ]

Heuston cork would be a good example of this, on the hour, every hour, until 9pm

[Mark Gleeson]

Clockface enterprise is coming, probably ever two hours to start. We know discussions are on going to go hourly, 4 Mk3 sets have been reserved for this

[KSW]

Getting a train from Gorey to Dublin that leaves at 11am would be good for alot of people, a late morning service, take off the 14.10 & 14.50 separate them maybe 13.30 & 16.00 then the evening services start...

[paddyb180285]

KSW, I like what your saying. This would cut the gap into three more equal parts. At present the trains to and from the Gorey area seem to operate in a convoy like manner with massive gaps in between. I wonder if a return service later than the 18:35 will be introduced on the Gorey/Rosslare route? There is a service that gets into Connolly at 9:18 PM from Gorey and terminates there.

This could easily be used as a 9:30 PM return to Gorey/Rosslare as beyond Greystones it would be the only train on the track. Therefore, it could max out it's speed beyond Greystones and arrive at Rosslare at 11:30 - 12:00. If it went as far as Rosslare, it could stay there over night and be used as an extra early morning service to Dublin. It could leave at say 6:45 - 7:00 AM. It would double as a fifth service southbound and a sixth service northbound. This is just a suggestion. NO improvement on infrastrucure would be needed. As well as serving Connolly, Tara Street and Pearse, serving all stations between Bray and Gorey/Rosslare would be a must to give everyone along that stretch of track a chance to get home. Maybe a few stations between Pearse and Bray could be served as well such as Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey and of course Bray itself.

Therefore, people from Gorey or Rosslare could stay in Dublin and do a bit of shopping or drink to unwind after a hard days work. The people from Waterford also seem to be lacking a late night service. A similar situation could apply. Although the bus is another option, the train is a lot more comfortable with more spacious seating, toilets and on board refreshments. I am aware that the bus can do the same journey in a shorter space of time. However, the train journey is more scenic (along the Gorey/Rosslare line anyway. I'm not sure about the Waterford-Heuston line). It would encourage people from the countryside to stay in Dublin longer.

I know that there are certain technicalities. For instance, on another thread I have heard something like "nobody from Rosslare works with Irish Rail" or "there is no train depot in Rosslare". It was something along those lines anyway. I am aware that at a relatively higher 5(south)/6(north) times daily frequency, full time staffing would still be unfeasable. That isn't to say it can't be taken in shifts which correspond to the departure and arrival of services. However, there is a high possibility that the demand mightn't be there for such a late service. Maybe by 2011/2012, this kind of service will be introduced. On the other hand, the lack of a late service could be crippling the demand as people feel forced to leave Dublin early.

[Mark Gleeson]

We are working on something at the moment which will expose some of the scandalous timetabling choices Irish Rail have made. Don't know what it will be like but potentially could be fun

The lack of staff based in Gorey is the biggest hold up to improved services, the alternative would be even more empty trains moving around wasting yet more money. There are few if any extra trains and no drivers, last thing we want is the 17:35 to Carlow mess repeated again

I can't see a case for a train later than 18:35 to Rosslare, certainly a case for a 22:00 to Gorey.

Irish Rail are all talk about listening but once they commit to something getting them to deliver it is a different game entirely

[ThomasJ]

Well if this happens, this is a chance to tidy up some of the messy timetables out there, Maynooth/Clonsilla, an example.

There are actually times during the day where a docklands bound train will arrive 5 minutes before or after a connolly/pearse bound train then a gap of 40 minutes or so! and noone boarding the docklands train! These need to be spread out a bit more!

I was waiting on a DART last Sunday early evening at Killester going citybound, there was a wait of 20 minutes, then 2 DARTs in the space of 10 minutes, then another 20-30 minute gap! madness.

The whole Dublin commuter/DART scene has to be overhauled and drawing from a blank piece of paper is the best way to do it!

[paddyb180285]

We are working on something at the moment which will expose some of the scandalous timetabling choices Irish Rail have made. Don't know what it will be like but potentially could be fun

The lack of staff based in Gorey is the biggest hold up to improved services, the alternative would be even more empty trains moving around wasting yet more money. There are few if any extra trains and no drivers, last thing we want is the 17:35 to Carlow mess repeated again

I can't see a case for a train later than 18:35 to Rosslare, certainly a case for a 22:00 to Gorey

So it's a case of, there is demand for later train (s) but no staff to cater for it?

22:00 to Gorey sounds good. I know I have mentioned double tracking in other threads. However, I have been told by numerous people that demand isn't there. So, I won't bring that up again. Doing so would be going off topic.

Thomas J, I couldn't agree with you more. Starting from a blank peice of paper is the best way to do it. At the moment the timetable is all over the place. Also, train journey's aren't fixed. By that I mean, some trains along a certain line would serve a lot of stations while the next would serve fewer. I think the journey should be standard. For instance, Dalkey is mentioned as being serviced by the Connolly-Rosslare line on their web site. This is very misleading to those commuting to and from Dalkey as there is only one journey to Rosslare Monday to Saturday with no return journey at all. If Dalkey is mentioned as being catered for by this service it should be standard for all (or most anyway) journeys covering this services.

[Mark Hennessy]

I know I have mentioned double tracking in other threads. However, I have been told by numerous people that demand isn't there. So, I won't bring that up again. Doing so would be going off topic.


It isn't that its off topic per se, its just that infrastructure related topics are all in the members areas of the forum.

[Mark Gleeson]

All I will say in the public area of the forum, is this

Official IE documents we have seen have two tracks from Greystones tunnel 4 through Greystones onwards to Wicklow or so.

Its not a issue the problem on the Rosslare line is not at peak hours its at off peak where the single line issue doesn't really come into play.

[ThomasJ]

I preume this will happen for all heuston once the KRP is completed.

Good news re the Enterprise when it goes hourly but what does this mean for Drogheda and Dundalk?

[KSW]

[quote=Mark Gleeson;35165certainly a case for a 22:00 to Gorey[/quote]


And I thought 20:00 was pushing it lol:D

I do think Irish Rail should completely re-do the Rosslare line timetable wise same with Gorey services. 6:00(06:00) 06:45(07:00) 08:50(09:00) (11:00)late morning (13:30)lunch hour 14:10 14:50 (16:00) 18:50 (18:00) 19:23 (20:00) 20:25... The times in red would probably suit alot more people they would me.

Times from Connolly is what I want to see looked at. First train 08:00 which serves Rosslare then maybe 10:30 which travels to Wexford terminates there. Then 13:00 or 13:30 to Rosslare, Then I would personally like a 15:30 which goes to Wexford then 17:30 to Rosslare and then a 19:00 or 19:30 to Rosslare there you have to evening trains to Rosslare then following morning operate as say 06:00 Rosslare to Dublin calls at 07:00 aslike above then another at 8am which is the 09:00 it just gets tricky afterwards train leaves dublin at 8am but arrives into Rosslare say 10:30 but there is a train that leaves gorey at 11am.. Tricky :DLOL

[paddyb180285]

I have heard that the Dublin Transport Authority are going to be established in January 2009. I am wondering if they are going to have any affect (major or minor) on next years train timetable?

[Mark Gleeson]

None at all in 2009, DTA will have some control over timetabling but mainly appears to have power to contract alternative companies to provide the service if IE fail to make target

Reason it has to be 22:00 is since the train set has to be in Dublin to go back

[paddyb180285]

None at all in 2009, DTA will have some control over timetabling but mainly appears to have power to contract alternative companies to provide the service if IE fail to make target

Reason it has to be 22:00 is since the train set has to be in Dublin to go back

All of this time, I thought there was no demand for a train to Gorey past 7 o'clock. I suppose the lack of staff would filter off a lot of potential clientelle and therefore cripple the demand for these services.

Anyway, getting back to the main topic. As a city, Galway is subject to a very poor frequency. It could do with at least two more evening Dublin bound services with the last service at roughly 9:30. Also, an extra Heuston-Galway service or two in the evening wouldn't be a bad idea either. Galway, as well as Belfast should have the same frequencies as Cork due to their extremely popular nature. I would like to see both Heuston-Limerick and Heuston-Waterford being made hourly on peak and two hourly off peak and see the last train at either end of each stretch leaving somewhere between 9 and 10 in the evening. With Sligo, I would like to see an extra evening service at each end of the journey at the said time too.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Anyway, getting back to the main topic. As a city, Galway is subject to a very poor frequency. It could do with at least two more evening Dublin bound services with the last service at roughly 9:30. Also, an extra Heuston-Galway service or two in the evening wouldn't be a bad idea either. Galway, as well as Belfast should have the same frequencies as Cork due to their extremely popular nature. I would like to see both Heuston-Limerick and Heuston-Waterford being made hourly on peak and two hourly off peak and see the last train at either end of each stretch leaving somewhere between 9 and 10 in the evening. With Sligo, I would like to see an extra evening service at each end of the journey at the said time too.

You've more or less got what's planned in one, but Galway wont be hourly.

[paddyb180285]

You've more or less got what's planned in one, but Galway wont be hourly.

Are there later services earmarked for the aforementioned areas? If so, it will be interesting to see how well they will perform in terms of revenue and popularity. I know that there are Commuter trains being sent down to Bray at the moment from the likes of Drogheda and Maynooth. Will this be different if the rumoured clockface timetabling comes into effect?

[Mark Gleeson]

There is no business case to run later trains than current, what there is, is to readjust the empty trains to run in service at reasonable hours to reduce the loss by carrying a limited number of passengers thus providing the later services at

I doubt we will see a later than 21:00 to Cork, train is more or less empty beyond Portlaoise

As it stands the Cork/Kerry timetable is more or less fixed and unlikely to change in coming years, everywhere else is every 2 hours apart from Limerick and Galway which get an extra peak service

[Thomas Ralph]

The 21:50 Dublin-Cork of a Sunday used to be decently busy before they dropped it. And it was announcement-free too.

[Mark Gleeson]

There be a 21:35 to Limerick on Sunday now which kind of deals with a lot of that business

[paddyb180285]

I have seen the Westport/Ballina timetable.The "frequency" is more or less the same all through the week. I wonder of there will be any increase in frequency of services to these places next year?

[sean]

Isn't there a shortage of drivers somewhere in the system? I believe you were talking about this before, Mark. If so, I wonder how IE is going to be able to run a more frequent timetable.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Isn't there a shortage of drivers somewhere in the system? I believe you were talking about this before, Mark. If so, I wonder how IE is going to be able to run a more frequent timetable.

yes, that's the reasons for all the cancellations this year. they may have to delay the 2009 timetable, it all depends on how advanced the driver training programme is going.

given there are so many 22ks out of Heuston it seems as though they'll get there

[sublimity]

yes, that's the reasons for all the cancellations this year. they may have to delay the 2009 timetable, it all depends on how advanced the driver training programme is going.

given there are so many 22ks out of Heuston it seems as though they'll get there

If they are short of drivers then why aren't they advertising vacancies on their website? I'm tempted to change career:D That timetable cannot be delayed, its December and December only!

[Mark Gleeson]

Closed shop recruitment except on DART. A fully trained and certified driver cannot transfer to IE from somewhere else

In theory a NIR driver is already certified by Irish Rail, but would have to join IE selling tickets first and then progress to driving, farce

[paddyb180285]

I would have thought that most if not all train driving consoles had the same layout. Cars certainly seem to anyway with a steering wheel in front of the driver, gear shift and hand breaks to the side (may vary from country[left] to country[right]) and clutch (if manual), accelerater and breaking mechanism beneath the wheel.

Anyway, I won't get technical. I notice that Tuam Station exists without any train services. I passed it on the way to Westport. It seems to be of a decent size. Do you think there will be services here from next year?

[markpb]

I would have thought that most if not all train driving consoles had the same layout. Cars certainly seem to anyway with a steering wheel in front of the driver, gear shift and hand breaks to the side (may vary from country[left] to country[right]) and clutch (if manual), accelerater and breaking mechanism beneath the wheel.

It's got very little to do with technicalities and more to do with the way the union works. Can't have outsiders coming in stealing our jobs mentality.

[Mark Gleeson]

That way too detailed

The point is services are restricted due to a shortage of drivers, Irish Rail's procedures are such that even trained personnel cannot transfer in. EU is going to make this kind of farce illegal in coming years.

[paddyb180285]

That way too detailed

The point is services are restricted due to a shortage of drivers, Irish Rail's procedures are such that even trained personnel cannot transfer in. EU is going to make this kind of farce illegal in coming years.

What laws or rules are the EU going to do introduce that will make this illegal? Are they going to have a far greater influence on planning decisions in terms of transport and its timetables and other issues non-transport related?

[Colm Moore]

What laws or rules are the EU going to do introduce that will make this illegal? Are they going to have a far greater influence on planning decisions in terms of transport and its timetables and other issues non-transport related?I think its more down to the right to work in whatever country you want. While sure, a doctor from Poland may not be able to set up in Ireland overnight, there is a rather straightforward procedure for recognition and a fast-track to employment as a doctor. A blocklayer or a truck driver can do it overnight.

Sure there are safety concerns, but none so arduous to prevent someone working at a meaningful level and income.

[comcor]

There is no business case to run later trains than current, what there is, is to readjust the empty trains to run in service at reasonable hours to reduce the loss by carrying a limited number of passengers thus providing the later services at

I doubt we will see a later than 21:00 to Cork, train is more or less empty beyond Portlaoise

As it stands the Cork/Kerry timetable is more or less fixed and unlikely to change in coming years, everywhere else is every 2 hours apart from Limerick and Galway which get an extra peak service

I don't suppose there's any chance of a 20:30 Cork-Dublin train on a Sunday. It exists every other day of the week and I would have expected it would be the most popular day for a late service to Dublin. Although I realise there would then have to be an extra Dublin-Cork service to avoid a set being left out of place.

[Mark Gleeson]

I've travelled on the 19:30 a few times, not on Sunday mind you but never found it to be overly busy, no more than a third full. To run the 20:30 on a Sunday requires a 6:00 on Monday which certainly has merit

[paddyb180285]

All I will say in the public area of the forum, is this

Official IE documents we have seen have two tracks from Greystones tunnel 4 through Greystones onwards to Wicklow or so.

Its not a issue the problem on the Rosslare line is not at peak hours its at off peak where the single line issue doesn't really come into play.

Mark, are you telling me that there are plans albiet on ice to double the track between Greystones and Wicklow? That will be interesting. Where is Greystones Tunnel 4?

Anyway back to the main topic. I would like to see later evening trains to and from Galway at say 21:00 in the evening. I would also like to see this for the Sligo and Waterford route. Sligo has undoubtadly had major service improvements as of the recent clockfaced timetable. However, the one flaw is the lack of a service passed 19:30. A 21:05 Connolly-Sligo and a 21:05 Sligo-Connolly journey could be introduced. A similar situation could apply to the Waterford line and to a certain extent the Limerick line. It mightn't necessarily be done on an Intercity branded train but on Commuter branded train as they can be shortened to two cars in length to cut costs on fuelling. The passenger numbers would determine the size and type of the train in use. If the passenger numbers are really scarce, a 2750 DMU would suffice. It would be a later service nevertheless which is the most important thing.

[sublimity]

Does anyone know what date the new timetable will be coming into effect? Will there be more direct services to Ennis and Tralee in this timetable?

[Mark Gleeson]

Does anyone know what date the new timetable will be coming into effect? Will there be more direct services to Ennis and Tralee in this timetable?

Day after the current one, Dec 14th

Highly unlikely, current number of services Tralee - Mallow is at the level proposed as part of the investment program

Any possible delay will be as a result of the lack of availability of the new intercity railcars. The ICR fleet outperforms the old Mk3 fleet by a mile. Given the Midleton and WRC situation might result in a 6 month timetable only

[KSW]

Just a simple question, Will the Rosslare line get the proposed Five daily services. Maybe three to Rosslare and two to Wexford. What kind of timetable will apply, A clockface pattern in both directions. Quicker journey times list goes on :D:D:D...

[sublimity]

Just a simple question, Will the Rosslare line get the proposed Five daily services. Maybe three to Rosslare and two to Wexford. What kind of timetable will apply, A clockface pattern in both directions. Quicker journey times list goes on :D:D:D...

Yes it's supposed to happen.all 5 services to rosslare, hopefully no changing at enniscorthy crap.
I hope all five will be operated by 22k intercity and not commuter trains.
Can you clarify mark?

[finnyus]

From the Rosslare side, I would like to see the Rosslare 07:00 connection continue on to Limerick Jctn, without the 70+ minute stop over in Waterford. The Waterford - Limerick Jctn is about 55miles? Its madness that it takes 1hour 40mins to travel the route! I know there have been track improvements over that last while on the route, but it still does not change journey times!

I would also like to see connections for Athlone/Galway/Westport/Ballina from Cork trains. Currently the best time to Galway from Cork is 4hours 40mins (05:15 from Cork, with a change at Portarlington). With the Ennis - Athenry reinstatement, hopefully there will be connections at Limerick Junction for Galway, but still a connection to Athlone/Ballina/Westport from Cork with a change in Portarlington opens up access to the West from the South!

On the DART side of things, what would people like to see?