View Full Version : [Article] Iarnród Éireann offered free Wi-Fi network
dowlingm
16-06-2008, 18:26
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0616/wifi.html?rss
Monday, 16 June 2008 16:09
An Offaly-based technology company has offered to install a Wi-Fi network on Irish trains for free.
AirAppz is offering Iarnród Éireann a Wi-Fi network for passengers to use on their laptops, PDAs and mobile phones.
While there would be no cost for Iarnród Éireann, customers would most likely have to pay to surf.
The firm's Chief Executive, Evert Bopp, said passengers could use the service for around €1 an hour or pay a monthly unlimited subscription of €29.
Mr Bopp said his company is ready to roll out the service if it were given the go ahead.
There are several methods for delivering a Wi-Fi service to a moving train, but Mr Bopp said using existing fibre optic cables that run alongside main rail lines is the best solution.
By placing receivers on the trains to pick up the signal and repeaters along the tracks, Mr Bopp said a 2mb per second connection is possible. If the fibre optic option is not viable AirAppz has suggested a 3G network or a satellite connection.
AirAppz would make money from the venture through location-based advertising and ads would change each time the train passed a new station.
Iarnród Éireann spokesman Barry Kenny said it is planning to meet with AirAppz about the proposal.
Mr Kenny said it has had approaches similar to this one in the past, but cost has been the recurring issue.
'If it is beneficial to us and our customers we would consider it,' Mr Kenny said.
However, if AirAppz proposal is deemed viable, Mr Kenny said the contract would have to go to open tender.
Canada and several states in the US including California, Washington and New Mexico have installed Wi-Fi on their public transportation systems.
On the Iarnród Éireann website's Frequently Asked Question section, the company says it is not in the public's best interest to install the current wireless technologies for its customers to use on board its trains.
'Anything we install now is likely to be completely redundant within five years,' the website says.
Instead it advises passengers to obtain their own wireless solutions through mobile providers.
Mr Kenny said Iarnród Éireann has not put money into Wi-Fi because its priority is investing in more trains.
Mark Gleeson
16-06-2008, 18:43
I've met people from the main provider of this service in Europe, they being the guys who did GNER in the UK who remain the only UK operator to go wifi on all services
Firstly, this is extremely expensive gear, you can't use off the shelf consumer wifi routers you get in pc world or Peats, it has to meet rail safety specifications which is pretty hard to do. You have to physically cut a hole in the roof to fit a satellite receiver which has structural implications.
Of course the business case GNER developed for wifi was driven by remote access to the trains computer to diagnose and repair problems enroute, not passengers surfing the web. Its free to all passengers, but then again GNER where the best long distance operator in the UK, they had there house in order in passenger service terms
There is catch, no doubt heaps and heaps of ads will get dumped on me
The service is still appalling that needs to be addressed first without question
Thomas Ralph
16-06-2008, 20:09
You'll note that GNER folded last year...
Mark Gleeson
16-06-2008, 20:54
The company which owned them Sea Containters went belly up, GNER was profitable. Point is these guys had got the customer service angle sorted and started to look at value add
Irish Rail barely manage to provide a service on any level
Laois Commuter
17-06-2008, 11:24
I agree with the IE website comments on this one. Wi-Fi on trains is largely a pointless gimmick nowadays. Times have moved on - most who want net access on the move have it via mobile provider either in to phone, laptop or PDA - and speeds and coverage will oinly improve as time goes on. The only people to benefit would be the provider and (presumably) IE thorugh profits.
LC
James Shields
17-06-2008, 20:01
Pretty much any IT equipment will be obsolete in five years, but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing. Having an outside company handle it is probably the best solution, though.
The mobile network has is good up to a point, but 3G coverage can be patchy, especially since the mobile providers don't seem to make coverage along rail lines as big a priority as along roads.
Donal Quinn
18-06-2008, 10:18
i used a 3G modem goign to galway and back last week - rarely had a very good signal and mostly was on GPRS. But it was the randomness of it that was most frustrating - loads one minute - nothing the next.
having a consistent WIFI signal in the carraige would be a serious boon. Also it is relatively future proof. more and more mobile devices now have wifi - iPhones iPaqs some nokias and Sony ericssons etc and there is no doubt that it will feature on laptops and mobile devices for years to come.
Pricing is key - and it has been a major flaw of wifi hotspots so far. instead of being premium services at up to 10 euro per hour they should be a fraction of that. what is the point in paying for installation if no-one is using it? pile em high and sell em cheap. and do clever things like an add-on on the ticket etc - especially for annual users
Mark Gleeson
18-06-2008, 10:31
The solution we have seen in use, uses several 3G phones on a number of different networks but requires a satellite receiver to be fitted to the roof to overcome the blackspots. Satellite is painfully slow in response times
For reference GNER spent at least £3.2 million on the project, number of train sets involved would be less than Irish Rail have
Is there WiFi in any of the train stations? I imagine a good start to providing Internet access to customers would be to install a Wifi router in all train stations.
Mark Gleeson
22-06-2008, 15:28
Third party wifi services are available
Fairly sure Eircom have wifi in Heuston
Bitbuzz definitely provide wifi in Pearse
If you can't live without a connection, get a 3G modem, or a 3G phone and connect your laptop with bluetooth
The technology is moving a incredible speed, the cost of the equipment for use on train is slower and more expensive as it takes time to modify and certify the equipment to meet the regulations
Of course every new train Irish Rail have already have a ethernet wired network on board and they all have wifi cards fitted
This proposal comes from a company with ZERO experience of doing wireless connections to fast moving objects, appear to have no knowledge of rail safety and certification standards. The market leaders are a outfit called icomera who have europe wide experience and they ain't giving it away for free, so the whole thing doesn't seem to stack up
This proposal comes from a company with ZERO experience of doing wireless connections to fast moving objects, appear to have no knowledge of rail safety and certification standards. The market leaders are a outfit called icomera who have europe wide experience and they ain't giving it away for free, so the whole thing doesn't seem to stack up
Mark,
Thanks for contacting us before you make comments about our knowledge or expertise in this field. Your comments is based on assumption rather than fact.
If you would like to find out more about us feel free to contact me directly. The same goes for anybody else who would like to know more about our offer or service. I will make time to talk to each and every one of you.
Regards, Evert Bopp.
CEO AirAppz
Mark Gleeson
25-06-2008, 18:31
The website presents no indication of service to mobile clients, everything is referenced as point to point or fixed hotspots[1]. No case studies are presented to indicate successful deployment in any field, no white papers on the technology, no endorsements from happy customers nor are any existing clients named this is most unusual in the tech field. No published peer reviewed material in the journals from what a little bench research. Its all rather blank[2] Other companies provide considerable detail as a matter of fact[3,4]. Google revealed nothing useful.
We want to believe its possible, just no publicly available info makes us very wary compared to the opposition
We are fully entitled to be skeptical in this context as the target customers we will end up paying for whatever is provided, nothing is free there is always a catch. The established providers, eg Icomera aren't giving it away for free, T-Mobile/uknomad aren't doesn't look like Siemens are either. We have been promised all kinds of wonderful things, few have ever been delivered. What little we get is usually poorly done with little consideration of the end user.
More than happy to revise post and formally delete the comment should some publicly available proof appears, which will massively improve the credibility of the whole thing. I am as many members will know in the wireless medium access control business myself
[1] http://airappz.com/services/
[2] http://airappz.com/projects/
[3] http://www.icomera.com/customers/gner
[4] http://www.uknomad.com
Third party wifi services are available
Fairly sure Eircom have wifi in Heuston
Bitbuzz definitely provide wifi in Pearse
If you can't live without a connection, get a 3G modem, or a 3G phone and connect your laptop with bluetooth
It should be very simple to just install a Wifi hotspot in every IE station around the country. I mean, we're not talking about a whole lot of stations here, about a 100 I think it is.
A hotspot in stations shouldn't run into too many regulatory problems, compared to putting Wifi on trains. Also, as broadband speeds improve the Wifi hotspot should also naturally improve in capacity.
When a train is stopped or passes slowly through a station, passengers could hit the send/receive button on their e-mail client. At a terminus station, passengers could perform quick internet tasks (weather, news) while they wait for the train to pull out.
It all seems like a no-brainer to me. I know that priorities may be elsewhere at the moment, but jeez, 100 wifi routers probably costs less than an IE board meeting!
Mark Gleeson
08-07-2008, 14:55
More like 120+ many would need several hotspots, plus the black haul connections
Would have to be a public tender
Again if you need internet get a 3G modem, its the only way to get reasonable assurance of access. It would work out cheaper than paying the hotspot company and much greater coverage
Mark,
Thanks for your reply.
I do agree that the website is thin on details but that is solely due to the fact that the venture itself is relatively new and we are busy working on our service and the website is something that has, temporarily, taken a backseat.
However the people behind AirAppz have extensive experience with the technologies and industry. I myself have been working with wireless data & voice services since 1999 and have worked as consultant on project all over the globe. We have developed an innovative solution for the provision of public wifi services that opens up several new revenue streams, something that makes it possible for us to provide the actual Internet access for a very low fee or even for free. This service can be deployed in static as well as dynamic/mobile environments.
The main "issue" with providing wifi access on a moving vehicle such as a train is the backhaul connectivity to the Internet. However there are various solutions available for this (wifi, wimax, 3g, satellite etc) and it is basically a question of proper and insightfull network planning and sufficient cash. We can do the former and we have the latter.
From a technical viewpoint our network will be no different than any of the other ones deployed across the globe. What is different is that we do not depend on paid internet access for our revenue. Because we are in ongoing discussions with Irish rail (and a number of other parties) I cannot go into to much detail. However I can tell you that our revenue is generated by passive elements (no direct user involvement) with no charge to the user and active elements (direct user involvement) in the form of subscription services.
The "plain vanilla" internet access is not and will never be the mainstay of our revenue.
I am more than willing to answer any more questions that readers of your forum might have.
Let me end by saying this; if we get the go-ahead for this it will only be beneficial to rail travellers, so a little less scepticism would be much appreciated.
Regards, Evert Bopp.
So apparently they have (free) WiFi on some Bus Eireann services now, which makes IR look even worse.
Donal Quinn
28-10-2008, 12:55
no mention of this on BE website - where did u hear?
boards.ie (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57633000&postcount=1)
Mark Gleeson
28-10-2008, 13:45
On trial it appears
Bus much easier than a train, fewer people, slower speed, less safety red tape and few if any tunnels.
We did the back of an envelope numbers and to fit out the rail fleet would be very significant and the same money would get a lot more in terms of service improvements
Was on a DB train with wifi recently, two points to note
1 its not free, you have to have a t mobile account or pay with credit card.
2 Only available on ICE trains between Dortmund and Munich, even if you are on a hotspot train you can't use it off this line.
Mark Gleeson
28-10-2008, 18:01
Was on a DB train with wifi recently, two points to note
1 its not free, you have to have a t mobile account or pay with credit card.
2 Only available on ICE trains between Dortmund and Munich, even if you are on a hotspot train you can't use it off this line.
Thalys (Paris/Brussels/Koln/Amsterdam) has it as well, but not all trains fitted yet, a fairly huge lump is bolted onto the roof to enable the satellite connection, its quite tall so much so it would get lobbed off by the first bridge on the way out of Heuston... And its not free but it grants you access to a limited number of website for free, basically enough to book a train ticket with them. Found it remarkably irritating to pay for a connection, gave up
DB seem to be using the wimax setup which requires a box every 2-4km along the line, wimax might do 75km but when mobile it can't. The 3G/satellite arrangement avoids the need to fit boxes everywhere, that said you can have 3G/wimax/satellite onboard if you wish, handy for tunnels
DB seem to be using the wimax setup which requires a box every 2-4km along the line, wimax might do 75km but when mobile it can't. The 3G/satellite arrangement avoids the need to fit boxes everywhere, that said you can have 3G/wimax/satellite onboard if you wish, handy for tunnels
__________________
Im not sure of the geeky **** but all I can say is unlimited www access if u have an account or pay log in fee, ony DB sites otherwise and only in certain areas. this seems to be 1st class service.
Mark Gleeson
29-10-2008, 12:53
In simple terms its the more expensive way to do it and is geographically restricted
In the UK if you took one of the GNER trains with Wifi it would work just about anywhere in the UK, such flexibility is good
The free proposal for Ireland was based on the wimax option though the practicalities of it and the use of IE's dark fiber optic network didn't seem to be worked out
On trial it appears
Bus much easier than a train, fewer people, slower speed, less safety red tape and few if any tunnels.
We did the back of an envelope numbers and to fit out the rail fleet would be very significant and the same money would get a lot more in terms of service improvements
Do your figures involve fitting out the entire train? A wifi carriage might be a possibility.
PS Does the Port Tunnel not count? :D
Mark Gleeson
29-10-2008, 16:24
First class and standard are different coaches. The kit has to be certified to rail safety standards so a cheap router off ebay won't work. The laws of physics are a problem, faster you go the more difficult the connection is, 90kph vs 165kph. Railways are full of deep cuttings and isolated countryside
Principle concern is slicing a hole in the roof for the satellite receiver
Thomas J Stamp
29-10-2008, 22:54
can we just keep this simple? otherwise you all know where this is going.
mkkkkkaaaaayyyy?
Principle concern is slicing a hole in the roof for the satellite receiver
Maybe this was the aspect of 'heavy engineering' they were referring to in the Mk3 refurb tender :D
Thomas J Stamp
30-10-2008, 23:34
Do your figures involve fitting out the entire train? A wifi carriage might be a possibility.
PS Does the Port Tunnel not count? :D
my mobile worked perfectly in the port tunnel last week so dont see why not.
I noticed on the 4pm Dublin-Cork train last Thursday that there was a wireless network showing up as "Free Public Wifi" or something similar. Is there some sort of roll-out planned?
At the moment, there doesn't seem to be a DHCP server, so it's useless.
Mark Gleeson
24-02-2009, 15:44
I noticed on the 4pm Dublin-Cork train last Thursday that there was a wireless network showing up as "Free Public Wifi" or something similar. Is there some sort of roll-out planned?
At the moment, there doesn't seem to be a DHCP server, so it's useless.
Probably a rouge laptop somewhere
Colm Moore
24-02-2009, 17:57
Probably a rouge laptop somewhereAny in beige or purple? :D
Donal Quinn
24-02-2009, 23:36
be careful with that! (http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2006/09/free_public_wif.html)
Mark Gleeson
29-11-2009, 12:54
I can report that Irish Rail are conducting trials of Wifi on the Dublin Cork route using 3G only. Borrow a computer science student, get a modem from the 4 networks and its easy enough hack something up. Though IE really need to be looking at something like this http://www.icomera.com/m400_overview.php?id=1&p=1
It works but there are 3 major blackspots en route. 3G coverage is rubbish outside populated areas. Other routes ruled out due lack of coverage
Talk of filtering as well to block youtube, to avoid the connection being saturated with unproductive traffic
Colm Moore
29-11-2009, 19:16
Satellite download might be ideal for cuttings and remote areas.
dowlingm
30-11-2009, 03:31
something like this (http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cnw.ca/images/rtphotos/Photo-16377.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cnw.ca/fr/releases/archive/October2009/27/c2707.html&usg=__v1W_IBFW4y5EGFidLfsZWluM_Eo=&h=256&w=192&sz=12&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=PAo4JumzTaahOM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=83&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbell%2Bmobility%2Bmifi%2B2372%26hl%3D en%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DJ7H%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1) (scroll to near the bottom) - would be a start
Mark Gleeson
30-11-2009, 10:03
The best solution is one unit per train as each 3G modem is competing for the same bandwidth
Remember the business case is based in access to the trains computer for operational reasons not kids on youtube
Remember the business case is based in access to the trains computer for operational reasons not kids on youtube
If Irish Rail are going to offer a Wifi product to customers years after people asked for it, they should do it properly. A service that doesn't work in some areas, provides slow speeds and has a blacklist of sites isn't going to be attractive. Then again, they can't operate a train service properly, what hope is there for anything else.
Mark Gleeson
30-11-2009, 10:11
Blame 02 for the bad connection
It looks to be targeted at business given its Cork only, given the constraints on the link blocking youtube and then other less how shall we say graphic sites is not unreasonable
What was GNER in the UK are looking to clamp down on high bandwidth users
If Irish Rail are going to offer a Wifi product to customers years after people asked for it, they should do it properly. A service that doesn't work in some areas, provides slow speeds and has a blacklist of sites isn't going to be attractive. Then again, they can't operate a train service properly, what hope is there for anything else.
Is that the wi-fi or the train you're talking about?
Is that the wi-fi or the train you're talking about?
Train :-)
This might shed some light: http://www.airappz.com/2010/01/airappz-invited-to-trail-wifi-on-irish-rail-trains/
Mark Gleeson
04-01-2010, 17:29
I still can't take this seriously
No list of customers
No details of the technology used
Which raised serious questions, every other provider is upfront with the details. Not to mention most already have UK rail standards approval, which directly transfers to Ireland. Normally people are more than eager to produce a mountain of paperwork to prove.
Less media fluff and spin, details are what are needed, Fleetconnect and Icomera have no problem with providing solid case studies (and tech specs on hardware) as do the other providers plus we can try them out and we have with positive results.
Passengers don't want to be guinea pigs for unproven tech they want something that works.
I still can't take this seriously
No list of customers
No details of the technology used
Which raised serious questions, every other provider is upfront with the details. Not to mention most already have UK rail standards approval, which directly transfers to Ireland. Normally people are more than eager to produce a mountain of paperwork to prove.
Less media fluff and spin, details are what are needed, Fleetconnect and Icomera have no problem with providing solid case studies (and tech specs on hardware) as do the other providers plus we can try them out and we have with positive results.
Passengers don't want to be guinea pigs for unproven tech they want something that works.
Excuse me you tell me to put more information online and then suggest "less media fluff & spin"? I sense double standards.
I have been in this business a whole lot longer than any of the other companies you list. If you want to see some kind of proof for that you can have a look at my professional profile (http://www.linkedin.com/in/evertbopp) or just use Google. You can also ask some of the other providers in the Irish wireless industry who will happily enough confirm that we know our stuff.
Again, we are in the business of providing 1st class public wifi *not* big spanlgy websites. We have had extensive discussions with Irish Rail who are fully aware of our credentials. Based on the discussions & the trail they have decided to invite us for a trail. If that's not enough for you than i do not know what will be.
Also passengers will not be "guinea pigs", we use standard wifi protocols and the concept of a "captive portal" has been used for years. The only thing we do different is that we provide LBS content and services via that portal. Another thing that we do different is that we won't be charging for the provided Internet access. Hardly "guinea pigs" territory is it now?
Evert Bopp.
vBulletin v3.6.2, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.