View Full Version : Carriage skips GCD
I was on the 18.20 from Blackrock yesterday, as we pulled into Grand Canal Dock, the DART didn't slow down properly. By the time we came to a complete stop, my carriage, the front one, and I would think the second one, had passed the platform. The train didn't reverse back and no announcement of why was made.
Once again top notch customer service from our excellent rail operator. :rolleyes:
Did the doors in your car open Paul? (You should make sure to report this, the driver might be dodgy)
Did people get out of your carriage?
Mark Gleeson
09-03-2006, 10:17
I've got some further insight from Paul
It was the 17:59 Bray Malahide
It was a Japanese built train
The speed limit at this point is 25mph
The driver of an 8 coach train can't reverse at this point, a 6 coach can. Reversing a long train would change the signal at Lansdowne Rd back to red in the face of an oncoming train
I've seen this before but only under poor conditions, a little bit of rain. In two incidents I can recall the driver did leave the braking way too late. No PA on those occasions either and that was a 4 coach train
The anti lock brakes are plain strange its great to 10mph beyond there it takes an an age to slow
Yes the train has a black box. IE will deny this happened
Did the doors in your car open Paul? (You should make sure to report this, the driver might be dodgy)
No but I suspect I could have opened them, they made that beeping sound.
Did people get out of your carriage?
No but I reckon I could have.
It was odd because it didn't seem to be the drivers fault (I have had a driver skip a station once, my station) I could hear the breaks squeeking, the train just didn't stop on time. As we approached the station, it seemed normal, normal slowing, no loud bangs, it just took longer than normal to come to a complete stop.
Was there an 'L' sticker on the front window of the train?
This is potentially very dangerous (obviously). Imagine some blind guy was alone in the car when that happened or a kid runs to the door and is too short to see out the window before pressing the button and stepping out into the abyss. Even a sighted adult could come a cropper at night with this carry on.
Can we contact the IRSC or whoever about this? It's an accident waiting to happen is this.
The driver of an 8 coach train can't reverse at this point, a 6 coach can. Reversing a long train would change the signal at Lansdowne Rd back to red in the face of an oncoming train
Would that not be safer than hitting the door unlock button with 2 cars beyond the platform and not even making a PA to move down the train?
I've seen this before but only under poor conditions, a little bit of rain. In two incidents I can recall the driver did leave the braking way too late. No PA on those occasions either and that was a 4 coach train
And these guys were complaining about a new safety regime-no wonder!
Yes the train has a black box. IE will deny this happened
Can the black box record exactly where the train stopped? Can IE delete what's on it? Do the IRSC have access to the black box like the CAA would with an aircraft incident?
Mark Gleeson
09-03-2006, 13:26
You can't set back generally without permission of the signaller, normal procedure is the call the signaller request permission, change ends move back then change again that proceedure is followed. You can't go back if there is a train behind (there is one timetabled 5 minutes behind which can be only 300m at time)
Due to the track layout at GCD setting back is tricky as the overlap beyond the signal before GCD is 20m up the platform so setting back would set the signal at Lansdowne Rd to red thus possibly causing a SPAD incident thus requiring the signaller to take control.
The black box records distance, acceleration, braking, postion of the controller handle, antilock brake state and the ATP state it also records the door interlock state so it would be possible to prove an overshoot and that the doors opened. ITs based on establishing a datum point eg Lansdowne Rd stop. The box has a limited storage capacity and unless we have the coach number we are stuffed.
Yes this is a breech of safety
The Railway Safety Commission
4th Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
Phone: +353 (0) 1 2068110
Fax: +353 (0) 1 2068115/116
And yes uinlike IE they will write back
If I was on board I would have got out (I know what I am doing) and took the photo and opted for the walk to Pearse. Evidence is key coach number train composition, opinion on approach speed
If I was on board I would have got out (I know what I am doing) and took the photo and opted for the walk to Pearse. Evidence is key coach number train composition, opinion on approach speed
It ocurred to me just after that I should have done this, I was kind of shocked it didn't move back.
Whatever about signalling issues, Philip make a good point, someone could have been injured.
Screw the car number-the average joe doesn't even know cars have numbers. Write to the IRSC Paul and explain what happened. Let them ask the awkward questions of IE. This is bang out of order. Imagine this happened at P7 Connolly Northbound-you could step out in front of a southbound train!! The IRSC need to know this stuff is happening.
Mark Gleeson
09-03-2006, 14:37
Proof is essential the coach number provides an instant hit as we then now the type its history can be traced, the on train data recorder can be pulled etc. You are dealing with Irish Rail here plausible deniability is there key mantra. It didn't happen. I've been told that before
I've had fun with IE in the past on safety issues specifics are very very useful
Given the layout of GCD its all but impossible to go wrong
If it happened I would have head out door, shout the inevitable question "Are you going to set back ?" and then in a calm and safe manner climb down just to make the point and quickly get to the platform to nab the photo
There was a case in Dalkey some time back on a manual door train
I agree with Mark that proof would be essential and I have none.
Still though, I think I will write to the IRSC. I feel I would be failing my duty (as member of a passenger lobby group) by not doing this.
Who wants to write it for me? :D
Nobody's going to court for this-we just want corrective actions taken so it doesn't happen again so we don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt. The IRSC won't know IE drivers have problems stopping trains unless they are informed. Picture the scene;
IRSC guy;"We've had a report about the 17.59 ex Bray overshooting the platform etc. Can we see the black box data please?"
IE guy;"No can do bud, you need the coach number"
IRSC guy;"Find out what set was rostered on that train and find out which coaches led the formation or we'll find out for you"
IE guy;"Ok Ok bud"
If even they make IE aware that they are aware of the issue and are keeping an eye on it it's a job well done. It's not our job as P11 to predict that because IE's response (or lack of) will be lack-lustre and hence do nothing about it, it's our jb to hang 'em out to dry when they're potentially putting people in serious harms way. Even stepping off the train could break an ankle/wrist, particularly in the elderly.
Nobody's going to court for this-we just want corrective actions taken so it doesn't happen again so we don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt. The IRSC won't know IE drivers have problems stopping trains unless they are informed.
I agree Philip. I would like to say I have proof but I don't. I feel me not writing to the IRSC ensures nothing gets done. Me writing may get something done.
Yeah, I know it's a pain writing to people who don't seem to care but maybe the IRSC will do summat, we can but hope :)
Send it registered post if you can do that for free from work.
Mark Gleeson
09-03-2006, 21:21
Actually the blackbox from the rear unit would do. Put simply at this stage it has been overwritten.
If the RSC was to take formal action there would have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt concerning the events. Remember we need to help the RSC as much as possible. Time is critical to ensure a result.
The majority of incidents are human error, the two overshoots I witnessed where human error in my opinion, after 22 years you get to know the braking points
The last time I had a safety issue (couldn't get out) I calmly noted the coach number. IE denied it happened, there was no entry on the report card (specific to the unit number). Train was subsequently seen by myself in Inchicore 2 weeks later
They could demand platform CCTV tapes too, they would show any overshoot. What about on train CCTV?
The IRSC are pretty useless if they can't investigate an issue raised by an ordinary member of the public.
Mark Gleeson
09-03-2006, 22:04
The train in question has fantastic CCTV equipment but no camera angle looks outside, again the system has limited time capacity so it would recycle hard disk space overwritten oldest first. Platform CCTV is not provided at GCD
In the event of a rail safety incident or witnessing a defect on a train the first port of call is the driver, guard or the first member of station staff you find. Note the evening before the still unexplained Potters Bar derailment in London a passenger had reported a rough ride at that point.
To there credit the one time I had to report a incident, missing pantograph wipper blade the member of staff confirmed the train details with me and picked up the phone.
Details or no details each incident should be reported and an overshoot of a suburban type train is serious my point is (and having read too many accident reports) is the truth gets lost in a muddle of poor inconsistent evidence.
An aircraft black box (even a 20 year old one) is capable of recording days of data. Just how much capacity does the IE black box have?
Colm Donoghue
19-04-2006, 14:02
I was on the 18:15 Pearse Drogheda last night. The train overshot the platform at Rush and Lusk, The doors didn't open for a good while, then the driver announced for passengers at the first door not to get off and get off at the rear door of the first car. I was getting off at the rear door anyway.
I got a poor phonecamera shot of the front of the train, I lost the number of the second car in the train though.
Should I contact the rsc or is this too little info to go on?
On another note, it's good to see the rsc are so easy to find, with their website and all.... not.
Send it all in anyway. The more the merrier.
Mark Gleeson
19-04-2006, 14:46
Once you have the number of any of the 4 leading coaches that all the last 2 digits reveal the set number in almost all cases
In this case the driver did make a PA and the overrun was less than a coach length its not worth reporting, if no PA was made it would have been worth reporting
Once you have the number of any of the 4 leading coaches that all the last 2 digits reveal the set number in almost all cases
In this case the driver did make a PA and the overrun was less than a coach length its not worth reporting, if no PA was made it would have been worth reporting
I'd have to disagree Mark. Making a PA is the least he should do after the train has overshot the platform. What if the only passenger in the leading coach was deaf and was disembarking at the front door, then the PA would be useless and Mr. deaf passenger falls out into the darkness (and what if the driver doesn't see that?). It seems it happens often enough when our small group here can report two overshoots in as many months. There must be many more. Report it I say.
Mark Gleeson
19-04-2006, 15:58
I've witnessed 1 full coach length overshoot in 20 odd years and I've experienced 1 half coach length overshoot, both where due to poor adhesion conditions and the anit lock brakes did there job, both where same day on the same train, same driver 10 minutes apart, I also experienced a 100m slide at 50mph due to leaves but the driver stopped inch perfect. They are uncommon, typically more common in the autumn but still very rare
Each incident is different but in the scheme of things a 10 m overshoot, where the train was held, passengers informed then doors released is very minor compared to a full coach overshoot with no pa and instant door release
I've experienced a carriage overshoot and a full train overshoot. The carriage one is this thread. The train one me and several others went up to the driver. He wreaked of whiskey. I think it should be reported as for all we know it is the same driver in all these instances. He could be an alco for all we know (if my job was that easy I probably would be :D ).
Yes this is worst case scenario and probably unlikely but reporting it can not hurt. Not repoting it could.
Exactly Paul, the RSC needs to build up a picture of these incidents and if a particualr driver is having 'minor' overshoots every so often then perhaps he needs additional training or counselling. If nothing is reported it all looks fine and dandy and someday the overshoot could be something more serious and there could be casualties. Best report everything.
craigybagel
19-04-2006, 23:19
It happened to me about 6 years ago but i didnt make an issue of it at the time because i thought it was a regular occurence!
Train was 7:05 Drogheda-Pearse or thereabouts (the only cravens operated train at the time in the morning peak) and it over shot Howth Junction by a coach and a half.The train had about 15 people standing in the first coach where i was and people for the junction had to very quickly fight their way 2 carriages down the train to get off.
Of course being cravens no announcement or isolation of the doors was possible.Just a lucky thing it wasnt mid winter when that train runs in darkness!
Now i moved house shortly after so only spend one year commuting outside the dart area yet i still experienced a serious over shoot. A statistical anomaly or is there a potentially serious problem here, particularly with vacuam braked stock.
Mark Gleeson
20-04-2006, 10:42
Overshoots are categorised as follows
Lead passenger door of lead coach was beyond the yellow line on the end of the platform, many stations the locomotive will be stopped beyond platform (e.g. Thurles). At certain stations Templemore in particular Dublin bound it is permissable to overshoot the station such that the restaurant car is at the platform, typically to load/unload a wheelchair Templemore being fully accessible
The causes can be defined simply as
1 Adhesion Related
Leaves, water, oil, ice on rail leading to loss of braking performance or wheelslide
2 Driver Error
Driver misjudgement of braking distance required, can be caused by lack of attention, honest misjudgement or failure to understand gradients which impact heavily on distances. It takes several seconds on a locomotive hauled train to reach full braking up to 9 seconds in fact, modern railcar/dart units its within 3 seconds as they have electro pneumatic valves. 60mph is 27 meters/second
3 Failure of braking system
Incredibly rare as the systems legally are required to be failsafe, even under degraded conditions the braking system will still stop the train within the prescribed distances of the signalling system.
The chances of a overshoot happening under normal conditions are remote, I'd given you 1 in 50,000 upwards of an overshoot on approach to a platform there was a time not so long ago the odds of an accident on certain lines was well below that. I'll look up the audits to see what the acceptable level is
BTW cravens coaches do have a PA system, its just the guards van has no microphone!
Its hard to judge when to file a official complaint, if a PA is made explaining the situation, doors are not unlocked until after the PA and you don't need to resort to walking to the next coach I wouldn't be complaining unless the driver behaviour was abnormal
With regard to the situations described
Grand Canal Dock, yes complaint warranted
Rush and Lusk, no unless other factors such as unusual driving style
Howth Junction, yes without question very serious dangerous spot to dismount trackside if it came to that
If you do wish to complain to make it stick
Date, time and location (specific platform number)
Destination of the train you are on
Type of train (if known)
Number of either of the first two coaches if a (railcar/dart)
Weather conditions (wet/dry/fog/drizzle etc)
Opinion on approach to station, (fast/normal)
Aftermath of incident (pa/train set back etc)
The last time I took a Cork-Dublin train the first coach of the MK3 set's door closest to the locomotive was off the end of the platform at the tunnel mouth at the end of Kent Station and the door was fully open. I'm not 100% sure why this was the case, surely they could have backed up a few more meters.
James Shields
25-04-2006, 09:57
Yesterday, I was on the 19:15 Pearse to Drogheda (I was in the lead coach, 29104). It stopped in Portmarnock, and the front door was just beyond the end of the platform, over the sloping ramp. I don't think there was any safety concern, but if someone didn't look before stepping out they could be surprised to find themselves on a ramp rather than a level platform.
craigybagel
28-04-2006, 19:16
The last time I took a Cork-Dublin train the first coach of the MK3 set's door closest to the locomotive was off the end of the platform at the tunnel mouth at the end of Kent Station and the door was fully open. I'm not 100% sure why this was the case, surely they could have backed up a few more meters.
Seems to be the norm at Cork on the CityGold sets so i would presume the platform isnt long enough?
Mark Gleeson
30-04-2006, 18:40
Done some research on this as always Roger Ford in the UK has the stats. Considering UK practice and platforms match Ireland the stats are comparable
Event passenger fall out/alights from train onto track at station
1.079 * 10^-9 events per passenger journey
Basically one in a billion chance of a fall or injury
Mark Gleeson
03-05-2006, 15:30
Was there an 'L' sticker on the front window of the train?
That was a funny remark until the unimaginable happened, I saw a DART doing a driver training run and in the back window, L plate no joking
Event passenger fall out/alights from train onto track at station
1.079 * 10^-9 events per passenger journey
Basically one in a billion chance of a fall or injury
What is 'Track' does that mean the gound or the rail side? If a carriage skips the platform, is that track or does this equation only count those who fall onto the 'wrong' side of the train?
Mark Gleeson
03-05-2006, 15:57
What is 'Track' does that mean the gound or the rail side? If a carriage skips the platform, is that track or does this equation only count those who fall onto the 'wrong' side of the train?
The numbers relate to a passenger disemarking onto the railway, which is normally the wrong side, in the case of Grand Canal Dock this is true as there is an active railway track both sides
The stat is correct as UK info shows one such fatality in 2003 for 1 billion carried
The stat is correct as UK info shows one such fatality in 2003 for 1 billion carried
I'm sure it is true but skipping a carriage and getting out of the wrong side are very different things.
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