Change to Credit/Debit Usage at Luas Ticket Machines

[Colm Moore]

http://www.luas.ie/ul/245.pdfCHANGE TO CREDIT/DEBIT USAGE AT LUAS TICKET MACHINES

From Monday April 28th Luas customers will only be able to use Credit/Debit Cards for transactions from €5 to €50 at Luas Ticket Machines.

The Luas Ticket Machines were purchased in 2002 before the current Financial Industry Standards (Chip & Pin) were introduced. Restricting Credit/Debit Card transactions to under €50 is an interim measure to enhance security for Credit/Debit Card users. RPA are in the process of securing an upgrade of Luas Ticket Machines to Chip & Pin Technology. It is hoped that this will be installed before the end of 2008.

Tickets bought from Luas Ticket Agents and cash transactions at the Luas Ticket Machines are not affected. Click here (http://www.luas.ie/ticket-outlets.php) for a list of Luas Ticket Agents.
A complete list is also on the Stop Notice board at each stop or by Freephone 1800 300 604.

RPA and Veolia regret any inconvenience which customers may experience. This change is necessary to bring the system into line with the current Financial Industry Standard and best international practice.

For further information:
www.luas.ie info@luas.ie 1800 300 604

[chris]

About time some restrictions were introduced to be honest. I worked part time in a petrol station last summer and we would frequently have 20-30-40 credit cards that people had forgotten in the chip and pin machines. It would have been amazingly easy to use these in the LUAS machines

[packetswitch]

Any chance that debit cards (AIB Maestro in particular) will start to work? Or is that too much to hope for?

[Laois Commuter]

And like Chip and Pin has only just been introduced. So if I want a monthly all-zones, I now need to carry over €70 cash to a machine, or $60 to a shop? Farcical.

LC

[Mark Hennessy]

2 points, addressed by both posters above:

You can't buy something like a 30 day ticket by Credit/Debit card?
Is this some kind of practical joke from the RPA?
Whats the point of offering these facilities if you can't buy the most expensive tickets from them?
How long will customers have to wait for the chip and pin to be introduced?

The AIB debit card never works.
Agree completely, both that and the AIB student mastercard have never worked for me.

[Thomas Ralph]

You have to go to a retail store to buy tickets costing over €50 by card (and the Luas-only ones are cheaper that way anyway).

I agree it's complete nonsense and the machines should have been built with PIN verification in mind. Veolia can already have any transaction charged back to them on a customer's say-so because they aren't using PIN verification. It's not as much a complete nonsense as Veolia trying to cover their own backs — they can accept any transaction they feel like but all the customer has to do is say "didn't buy it bud" to their bank and the money's back.

[Colm Moore]

Eh, is a monthly ticket linked to a specific ID card?

[Mark Gleeson]

yup

the simplest solution is to permit one ticket sale per month for a value over 50 euro, to allow for the monthly ticket.

The current setup allows me to buy literally thousands of weekly tickets, spending thousands yet one simple monthly ticket they are worried about

[Thomas Ralph]

the simplest solution is to permit one ticket sale per month for a value over 50 euro, to allow for the monthly ticket.
One ticket per card per month? That'd require storing card details which would violate the Data Protection Act (http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=581&m=f).
The current setup allows me to buy literally thousands of weekly tickets, spending thousands yet one simple monthly ticket they are worried about
After three or four transactions from the same location in short succession most banks would block the card (assuming that the TVM didn't reject it for the same reason).

[chris]

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't violate the Act if done properly. I can only use my card to top up my Northern sim card a few times per month. Any more and O2 steps in to say it's not allowed-it doesn't even get as far as authorisation with the bank. If it doesn't vioate the British Act, then it probably doesn't violate ours - we usually copy their acts. As long as Veolia were clear in their T&Cs what data they were storing and why, I can't see why there should be a problem. Saying that, I haven't read that Act and have to defer to TJ Stamp

[markpb]

I don't think the DPA says anything about credit cards but PCI regulations definitely would. Storing credit card numbers beyond billing and processing is a big no no. There are ways around it though but at the end of the day, putting a pinpad on the TVMs would be a much better, simpler and more reliable solution.

[chris]

Putting a pin pad outside is a bit dodgy for a number of reasons.

1. Pinpads aren't supposed to get wet
2. Cards aren't supposed to get that wet
3. Electrical devices like pinpads aren't supposed to operate at low temperatures
4. If it sticks out (as it presumably will), people will whack into it and break it off, especially at the busy stops on the red line, which serve a dual function as pavements.

I presume reasons like this are why they weren't there in the first place, but I agree Veolia have to find a way around it. If they can have ATMs outside, there should be some way to downsize. Anyone know how other cities do this?

[Mark Gleeson]

What you do is update the magstripe reader to read the chip, been done on many atms

Then use the touch screen as the input for the pin, IE have a nice on screen keypad for entry of id numbers and reservation numbers

[chris]

Thanks for that Mark.

They'd need to keep the onscreen keypad small to protect security

[Thomas Ralph]

What you do is update the magstripe reader to read the chip, been done on many atms
That's doable.

Then use the touch screen as the input for the pin, IE have a nice on screen keypad for entry of id numbers and reservation numbers
That violates IPSO rules.
I don't think the DPA says anything about credit cards
Did you click on the link at all?

[Colm Moore]

Putting a pin pad outside is a bit dodgy for a number of reasons.
...
4. If it sticks out (as it presumably will), people will whack into it and break it off, especially at the busy stops on the red line, which serve a dual function as pavements.
...
If they can have ATMs outside, there should be some way to downsize. Anyone know how other cities do this?I imagine a keypad similar to those on ATMs can be retro-fitted so that it is more or less flush with the face give or take 2mm.

[chris]

I imagine a keypad similar to those on ATMs can be retro-fitted so that it is more or less flush with the face give or take 2mm.

Given the ridiculous amount of space those things take up, I imagine you're probably right. There must be a lot of empty space inside them

[Laois Commuter]

[QUOTE=tralph;32819]You have to go to a retail store to buy tickets costing over €50 by card (and the Luas-only ones are cheaper that way anyway).

QUOTE]

And you're going to be really popular trying to buy a LUAS ticket by card in the middle of the morning rush at a newagents. Oh, and they don't take Amex. So tough, customers.

As I said - farcical.

LC

[Thomas Ralph]

I imagine a keypad similar to those on ATMs can be retro-fitted so that it is more or less flush with the face give or take 2mm.

Yes, should not be much of a problem. TFL did it for chip/PIN rollout without hassle.

[Colm Donoghue]

Yes, should not be much of a problem. TFL did it for chip/PIN rollout without hassle.

Every retailer in the country managed... maybe the rpa were too busy explaining why 30m trams on the red line were good enough, or maybe they signed an amazingly bad contract with veolia that it makes sense to not accept payment instead of upgrading the machines....

[CSL]

what, are we looking for simple solutions ?

1. Register your card
2. Buy the top-up online
3. Next tag-on, card value increases by whatever it was [ €100 or whatever ]

Job's a horse.

[Thomas Ralph]

what, are we looking for simple solutions ?

1. Register your card
2. Buy the top-up online
3. Next tag-on, card value increases by whatever it was [ €100 or whatever ]

Job's a horse.

That would work but would be even easier to generate card fraud with. The current method requires the physical card, that method would allow purchases with just the card number.

[Laois Commuter]

Also doesn't cover season tickets.

LC

[Terrontress]

That would work but would be even easier to generate card fraud with. The current method requires the physical card, that method would allow purchases with just the card number.

It seems to work fine on eazypass.

[eoin]

Also doesn't cover season tickets.

LC
It would if Smartcards were capped to weekly/monthly rates, like Oyster. Though I'm in fantasyland imagining that could ever happen.

[CSL]

That would work but would be even easier to generate card fraud with. The current method requires the physical card, that method would allow purchases with just the card number

No it wouldn't !

I'm talking about tagging-on, not spending cash ?
Or maybe I have it wrong, give a step-by-step please.

As for season tickets, the smartcard is a stored value so whatever system's in place now seems to be OK

I'm only talking strictly about replenishing cash into [ not out of ] a smartcard

to defraud this system as far as I can see

1: Steal Visa Card
2: Steal smartcard
3: Top Up Smartcard online
4: take lots of train journeys :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
5: repeat

above only works until cards reported lost.

[Mark Gleeson]

Obviously you need to report the smartcard as stolen, another great feature of the smart card is instantly block the card avoiding the current mess

RPA/Veoila can then decide simply disable the card or arrange a trap to catch the person since of course you can look at the pattern of use

Unlike IE RPA don't offer tickets through ticket master

Of course Irish Rail are still taking cards for everything, we haven't heard anything

[Thomas Ralph]

Yes it is entirely the decision of Veolia in this matter to cap their own risk. Because there is no PIN verification on either IÉ or Luas machines (note that the few Bus Éireann ticket machines that take cards are chip/PIN enabled) any contested transaction is automatically resolved in favour of the customer and the merchant has to eat the loss.

I suppose that if someone contested a transaction to top up a smartcard Veolia might be able to disable the card, but that's neither here nor there.

[MrX]

Basically as far as the banks and card issuers are concerned Chip and Pin is the standard in Ireland for *all* credit/debit card transactions. The retailer is supposed to have a chip and pin terminal at this stage.

If a card is presented with a chip it's supposed to be processed with the Chip and verified with a PIN.

If the retailer swipes the card and processes it the old fashioned way they're taking on full liability for any fraud and the banks will take no responsibility for it. So, if someone uses a skimmed card etc its not the bank's problem anymore if that card is supposed to be processed by Chip and PIN.

Why the RPA and Irish Rail have taken so long to roll out Chip and PIN is a complete mystery. They're extremely late and leaving themselves wide open to major losses as a result of their failure to comply with the banking standards.

The ticket machines ought to have been compatible with Chip and PIN from day one. They were rolled out AFTER the Chip and PIN standards were published and after the launch of the EMV chip and PIN system, even if it wasn't compulsory at that stage it was only a year or two away and they could have rolled out machines with Chip & PIN modules installed. These also process old style Magnetic cards.

Transport for London had a different issue, they've had card machines for quite a long time and had to upgrade them from the old tech to the new tech. IE and RPA managed to adopt obsolete technology that was about to be phased out!!!

So, basically it's short sighted, lack of forward planning and a gross waste of public money (as usual).

And it's highly inconvenient for customers.

Btw: In some cases the banks won't even allow the processing of certain cards without Chip and PIN. This is partially why some Laser cards are being rejected regularly.

Also, I can't see why there's any fuss over this. I'm sure the ticket machines they're using are used elsewhere in Europe and chip and pin is standard across the whole EU. It's only a matter of adding a new card module.
In fact, I've seen the EXACT SAME machines in Belgium happily accepting Chip and PIN. Clearly they're designed to have a PIN Pad.

Also, weather proof Chip and PIN terminals are common place. They're found on petrol pumps, parking meters, payphones, etc in most other countries.

Ireland's pretty backwards with credit/debit card technology roll outs for those kinds of things.

[dowlingm]

I wonder if once smartcards become the norm the govt will slap a stamp duty charge on them :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Colm Donoghue]

I wonder if once smartcards become the norm the govt will slap a stamp duty charge on them :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


please delete that comment before anyone if the dept of finance sees it please....

[MOH]

IE and RPA managed to adopt obsolete technology that was about to be phased out!!!


Lies I say! IE would never adopt an obsolete technology! Why, they won't even adopt Wi-fi just because it might be obsolete in 5 years!

[dowlingm]

Basically as far as the banks and card issuers are concerned Chip and Pin is the standard in Ireland for *all* credit/debit card transactions.Well... those which don't involve Americans or Canadians anyway. Chip and PIN doesn't exist here yet, we're too busy putting RFID and no-signature transactions on ours for ease of consumerism :rolleyes:

[Garrett]

Also, I can't see why there's any fuss over this. I'm sure the ticket machines they're using are used elsewhere in Europe and chip and pin is standard across the whole EU. It's only a matter of adding a new card module.
In fact, I've seen the EXACT SAME machines in Belgium happily accepting Chip and PIN. Clearly they're designed to have a PIN Pad.

Also, weather proof Chip and PIN terminals are common place. They're found on petrol pumps, parking meters, payphones, etc in most other countries.



Yup. When I first came to Orléans in France in 2000, they had just finished their new light rail line, almost identical to the Luas in Dublin. Since day one, the ticket machines at all the stops have been chip and pin ready. Of course, chip and pin was invented in France about 20 years ago, so it's kind of a nationalist thing over here :p

[Thomas Ralph]

It would if Smartcards were capped to weekly/monthly rates, like Oyster. Though I'm in fantasyland imagining that could ever happen.

You're in fantasyland imagining it happens with Oyster, bud. Oyster has daily capping (and at a discount to the paper ticket price) but weekly, monthly and longer tickets have to be bought normally and are loaded onto the card, separately from the prepaid ticket value.