Scoping study published - insufficient funds for Navan [Archive]

Navan Junction

07-01-2008, 20:48

The scoping study hasd confirmed route three as the preferred route of the Navan line.

Route 1 is the old alignment to Navan Junction where the new Navan Central will be built.

Route 2 is the old alignment with an extension to the Kells road for an additional Park and Ride to ber called Navan North.

Route 3 is the old route with a deviation to the M3 interchange at Dunshaughlin, returning to the old alignment but deviating west around Kilmessan. From the the old alignment is used until Cannistown /M3 where the line deviates behind the new houses and rejoins the alignment to join the Drogheda line for Navan Central, terminating there.

The Trim road station no longer figures.

Route 4 went into Dunshaughlin but would have cost €55m more because of having to go below 2 new roads and over the M3 twice.

All other five routes were discounted for the usual reason and as Ratoath cannot grow anymore as it has no more capacity for services (sewerage etc) and Ashbourne is too far.

Pros: Route has finally been selected.

Cons: Iarnród Éireann have said it is not a financially viable project as even though it will cover it's running costs as project and will be economically viable as revenue will not cover depreciation.

And €78 million has been landed on the project for the second hand rolling stock that would be used.

Estimated cost €450m at todays prices, €580 at 2015 figures.

IÉ claim section 49 levies will not cover costs (not with the 1km radius on the Dunboyne model anyway).

IÉ claim 1hr journey time to Docklands at best saying it will be uncompetitive with roads.

IÉ claim that they have no access to Tranport 21 costings but that they have been told that the funding is not in Transport 21 for that amount as it exceeds the Transport 21 costing by €200m - work out the maths.

The are recommending abandonment of the project as it does not offer the same value as other competing projects in Transport 21.

Footnote - Sewer pipe gets moved if built.

Derek Wheeler

07-01-2008, 20:48

Its my news to the masses.:D

Im putting it in here because it has a wider (and deservedly so) interest than just RUI members. Yes its an infrastructural issue, but its dynamite. The news may have broken elsewhere, but here goes.

IE made a presentation to Meath CC today in relation to the routes and costings for the rail line from Pace to Navan. The same presentation is being made to the DOT next week. Tom Finn of IE is running the show.

Some of the route options examined were bonkers, but the preferred route (option 3) is more or less the original alignment with the necessary deviations. Navan station is to be sited at the site of Navan junction. (The original site on the former railway.)

Sounds good so far, doesn't it?

But Tom Finn stated that the costings in T21 for the project were not from IE and perhaps they came from the strategic rail review of 2003. Either way he wasn't sure where the figure was plucked from, but he was adamant that it was short by 200 million! Do the maths folks.

There's more!

The project would not recoup its build costs. It would cover its running costs, but not the cost of depreciation. Therefore the document reaches the conclusion that the project is not financially viable.

Of course this doesn't mean that the line won't be built, but I feel its is a very convenient method of placing it on the back burner. Yet again my "banjo bet" looks safe and a further prediction from Dero's crystal ball.......if the dept of finance don't fancy the monopoly money that the direct route will cost, then the Drogheda route looks like a sleeping possibility.

This particular report is almost identical to a previous report done by IE and MCC. (circa 19999) That too concluded running as far as Navan wasn't viable. In fact its recommendation was to run as far as Pace and build a huge P+R for Navan commuters. The more eagle eyed amongst you will remember a debate between Barry Kenny and I on the last word in mid 2005, where he tried to justify the Pace P+R as a suitable facility for Navan commuters. Thats what it was always meant to be. Of course in November 2005 T21 pulled a rabbit out of the hat by including Navan in the list. Apparently the money was "ringfenced". But according to Tom Finn today that "ringfenced" money is a tad short. (If its even there at all)

I don't like saying these things and I know I sound like the Eamonn Dunphy of transport, but I still don't believe that Navan or the Interconnector will be built. Alternatively, it could be Navan or the Interconnector. Take your pick. Meanwhile in the west, the WRC is on its merry way. And yes, it was mentioned by one councillor in Meath, who made the very funny point that "the WRC will carry 500 people a day and thats the population of Kilmessan!"

Thats all from the funny farm.

Mark Gleeson

07-01-2008, 20:52

So its exactly in line with the submission we made all that time ago, we wanted the Dunshaughlin deviation and we got it

And its nothing new that the project was going to be too expensive

Derek Wheeler

07-01-2008, 21:15

Ive posted more or less the same in a different thread which crossed with this one.

The only real points of interest in todays news in relation to P11/RUI are of course the sewer pipe and the fact that I went on record saying that the won't happen by 2015. The submission is merely routine and from my perspective unimportant as I never believed it would happen anyway. I say that with respect to my former colleagues here. The correspondence I have in relation to the project will make interesting reading and Im baking the humble pie for the few that will have to eat it. As I said in the other thread, Drogheda is now the only realistic hope for Navan.

What a mess.

Mark Hennessy

07-01-2008, 21:23

Derek Wheeler

07-01-2008, 21:37

Thanks for the update Derek, it doesn't shock me one bit now especially given the 5 year dithering over Midleton.

I'm firmly in the Interconnector not being built camp (well maybe by 2025) also :(

When this period in time is a period in history, it will be look back on as one of the greatest catastrophes in Irish Transport history. IE have embarassed the Government today because the Government did as the usually do...they acted like transport experts, when they are not. (remember metro, luas etc etc.) Navan has a rail line and with considerably less money and a bit of vision and creativity, it can have rail services. We were not mad when we proposed the Drogheda route. We were not mad when we said the sewer main displayed a lack of commitment to the original alignment. Navan has been treated like muck for years in terms of a rail connection. Blame your Government and never believe IE spin when they are drugged up on Government promises. The reality hit hard today and Im glad of that, but disappointed for Navan commuters. They have been sold a pup. Standby for more bull**** from your Government when this news hits the media. It will all be lies and more lies. T21 is a joke at the expense of citizens literally dieing from horrendous commutes.

As for the interconnector. Brilliant idea. IE are up for it. It needs to happen. Don't rule out IE scheming against Navan to protect it. But isn't it sad that we have to think like this.

Mark Hennessy

07-01-2008, 21:53

I just think the scandalous waste of our (brief) wealth from the boom times will come back to haunt us.

There has been little in the way of a capital legacy laid down for the people who helped fund the whole boom, the first time buyers out in places like Navan etc.

They have enslaved themselves to long mortgages, long commutes all to work hard to give up taxes for nothing in return. Truely sad state of affairs.

As an aside, before the election I was hassling my local candiate (Michael Fitzpatrick FF TD now) about how much room for improvement there was in the Maynooth line service and he turned to me and said in the most patronising manner about how lucky I was to have the service. How right the arrogant sh1te was.

Derek Wheeler

07-01-2008, 22:20

As an aside, before the election I was hassling my local candiate (Michael Fitzpatrick FF TD now) about how much room for improvement there was in the Maynooth line service and he turned to me and said in the most patronising manner about how lucky I was to have the service. How right the arrogant sh1te was.

Remember that moment Mark and never let it go. Tell your kids about it. Tell your grandchildren about it. Im not being melodramatic about this. Its a prime example of how politicians view public transport. Realistically, after years of wealth, what have we done in terms of rail transport?

CSL

07-01-2008, 22:39

Y'all will have a motorway ... Yee Ha . Don't forget it'll be tolled!

Derek Wheeler

07-01-2008, 22:44

Y'all will have a motorway ... Yee Ha . Don't forget it'll be tolled!

A key point. Its where the Government failed to realise that modern European transport networks consisted of quality road and rail networks. We have yet to experience the death of inter city rail travel as motorways shorten journey times. But its coming. I predicted it long ago. Its a pity that Ireland didn't capitalise on lessons from elsewhere.

Anyway, Im divulging widely. This is about Navan and the implications.

Mark Gleeson

08-01-2008, 09:25

€578m rail line to Navan 'not financially viable'
Elaine Keogh

The next phase in the reopening of the rail line from Dublin to Navan would cost €578 million, was "not financially viable" and "would require the full capital costs to be borne by the Government," councillors in Meath were told by Iarnród Éireann yesterday.

The reopening of the line is part of the Government's Transport 21 infrastructure programme and the first phase of the line, from Clonsilla to an interchange with the M3 at Pace near Dunboyne, is scheduled to open by 2010.

However, the study on the viability of continuing the line to Navan found that it was costly, and if the final route took in Dunshaughlin the cost would jump by another €55 million.

The report, drawn up by consultants Roughan & O'Donovan - Faber Maunsell revealed the emerging preferred route would use two-thirds of the pre-existing line, with an extension to create a station at Navan North to link in with an existing but disused line to Kingscourt.

Including construction, stock, land and property, the cost of the line is estimated at €455 million in 2007 terms.

However, with construction anticipated to take place between 2010 to 2012, that cost would rise to €578 million, with annual operating costs of €6.8 million in today's terms. The presentation to Meath County Council also heard the service could be operational by 2013 - two years ahead of the target date in Transport 21.

The journey time to Dublin from Navan would be approximately one hour, with trains every 15 minutes at peak times, and there would be stations at Pace, Drumree, Kilmessan, Navan Central and Navan North.

With a projected 5,300 trips each way from Dublin to Navan, it would have an anticipated financial return of 4.6 per cent, and therefore just meets the Department of Finance's threshold of 4 per cent.

Tom Finn from Iarnród Éireann told councillors that 85 per cent of the projected population growth would be needed to justify the development and "even the slightest drop in population could have a very significant impact on the rate of return." He acknowledged that "financially, you would not touch it with a barge pole because of the costs".

The scoping study ruled out spurs on the line to Ratoath, Ashbourne and Dunshaughlin, but the emerging preferred route does includes going close to Dunshaughlin.

It also said up to 25 per cent of the funding could be raised through development levies, with the balance sought from the exchequer. The report will now go to the Department of Finance.

© 2008 The Irish Times

Remember we said to would could 300 million (at 2004 prices), well we are proven right 455 less the rolling stock cost (which is normally separate) gives about 300 million

Garrett

08-01-2008, 15:41

Mark Gleeson

08-01-2008, 16:02

We predicted this more or less, Navan would be the first casualty.

The first person to let it slip was Dick Fearn CEO of IE who in a published interview clearly stated it wasn't a certainty that was back in spring 2006

In terms of the route, we where proven 100% on every single aspect. We didn't say East or West of Killmessan (west was the obvious choice) but everything else we got spot on. We did make a submission (so its on record for all to see) and we did speak at considerable length with the IE people working on the route choice right down to the manholes (proven right there as well)

On cost yet again we hit very close

We are not really in the infrastructure business for this very reason we know what should be done but there is very little support to achieve this

However it must be emphasised that the Navan line will cover its operational costs the WRC will not and the costs at todays prices are not much different

No annual passenger number quoted in the reports but we think its in the 2-2.5 million bracket

Its all speculation really until we see a copy of this report, it would be most inappropriate to issue a formal statement until that time

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 16:20

Not speculation. I've read the report twice

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 16:39

So, as I understand it:
- Pace to Navan will never happen
- Drogheda to Navan could be a runner
- Financing a rail project to Navan could jeopardise finance for the Interconnector.

Those who always predicted this situation are justified in making it known that they were right all along. P11/RUI members do need to give themselves a pat on the back every now and then, and we need this for "attacking" IE and the government. However, I suppose RUI needs to quickly move on and deal with the scenario. I'm just a fly-on-the-wall member so I was wondering how the really active members think RUI policy will evolve on this issue?

I am the blasphemor who poured scorn on the Navan project. I will rot in hell for my actions.:eek:

While no longer a committee member, I'd suggest that the Drogheda angle be taken off the shelf and put into the media again. IE themselves have now removed one of the reasons they used against this proposal. If the interconnector was built, then loads of trains could run from Navan on the northern line.

Drogheda would be the logical reaction from this organisation.

Prof_Vanderjuice

08-01-2008, 18:20

As a matter of interest, how many T21 rail projects are financially, as opposed to economically, viable? Pace isn't (http://www.meathontrack.com/uploads/Clon_Dunb_M3FeasibilityReport.pdf#page=26) and neither is Midleton (I can no longer locate the study online, but it's discussed on pages vii and viii, or 7 and 8 of the pdf - and probably at greater length elsewhere - for anybody with a saved or paper copy; the study states that "there are few rail projects which can be justified solely on financial grounds"). I think I remember reading somewhere that the only project emerging from the Dublin Suburban Rail Strategic Review as financially viable was the Phoenix Park Tunnel.

It might be that the economic results were unsatisfactory, but nobody's actually said so. Of course, the points about costings and population growth are valid ones.

Mark Gleeson

08-01-2008, 18:23

We need to see the report to see exactly what it says, what assumptions and so on

Midleton is in fact profitable

Oisin88

08-01-2008, 18:25

The Irish Times article above says:
With a projected 5,300 trips each way from Dublin to Navan, it would have an anticipated financial return of 4.6 per cent, and therefore just meets the Department of Finance's threshold of 4 per cent.
Does this not mean that from the DOF point of view it is financially viable?

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 18:33

Yup, once born it will breath on it's own

Financially speaking that is

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 18:35

Yup, once born it will breath on it's own

Financially speaking that is

Might be a very long pregnancy though.

Its also worth noting that IE havent just said its unviable on financial grounds. They have recommended that the project be abandoned. The longer people tolerate this charade and fool themselves into believing that the direct route will happen, the less likely Navan will get a rail service.

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 18:35

We need to see the report to see exactly what it says, what assumptions and so on

Midleton is in fact profitable

I'll get my copy back sometime tomorrow and I'll scan it in.

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 18:36

Might be a very long pregnancy though.

But hopefully not a phantom one

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 18:43

The longer people tolerate this charade and fool themselves into believing that the direct route will happen, the less likely Navan will get a rail service.
Oh Navan will get a service alright. Either directly or via Drogheda.

But Drogheda won't be considered until the direct line issue is decided

That's just a political reality

We all know that it would makje sense to stick a couple of the new intercity trains on the Drogheda line and to link up on an existing path at Mosney loop.

But politically the idea won't gain traction until the fate of the direct line is decided once and for all.

Either route kicks hell out of road journey times

Prof_Vanderjuice

08-01-2008, 18:45

Mark,

Midleton would be financially viable in the sense of covering capital costs from revenue? (I know it would be profitable - as would Navan - insofar as covering operating costs is concerned.) I was just going by the 2002 Faber Maunsell study, which assessed options for the whole Cork network rather than Midleton alone, but found that even the ones excluding Midleton would still have negative financial outcomes. They do mention that nearly all the Midleton options, including the preferred one, would cover their operating costs. There may have been another subsequent study I've forgotten about.

(I won't go further with this because it's getting off topic - just curious.)

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 18:52

It's not off topic - no private enterprise has even considered railways as a means of making money in decades

If a railway line is viable that it is the best you can hope for - they are there as an economic asset and preferably not to be a drain on public finances.

Navan meets both of those considerations.

Iarnród Éireann purposely put the boot in on this last night - and the word on the street it was to put pressure on the Minister in his own patch to come up with more money

ofjames

08-01-2008, 19:10

This report surely makes IE's case for claiming the broadstone alignment utterly redundant???

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 19:18

This report surely makes IE's case for claiming the broadstone alignment utterly redundant???

Not nessessarily. I've never understood the rush to Luas for the alignment.

Broadstone is the last heavy rail alignmnet available into Dublin and shouldn't be used up until it is certain it will never be needed.

You can run a Luas up the canal alignment but you can't run a train down it.

If you loose the Broadstone alignment and the Interconnector trips slips or dies then you have problems.

The canal alignment is there and should be used.

We can't have gotten so used to the goodtimes that that we forget that things can go horribly wrong, have we?

I remember when I was a kid one lane of the M50 between Firhouse and the Greenhills road was build and lay idle for what may have been a decade, I haven't a clue.

Point is the story told at the time was that the money wasn't there to move on it.

Don't ditch your back up plan until you no longer have need for a back up plan, particularly if there are other options

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 19:21

Oh Navan will get a service alright. Either directly or via Drogheda.

But Drogheda won't be considered until the direct line issue is decided

That's just a political reality

We all know that it would makje sense to stick a couple of the new intercity trains on the Drogheda line and to link up on an existing path at Mosney loop.

But politically the idea won't gain traction until the fate of the direct line is decided once and for all.

Either route kicks hell out of road journey times

The fate of the direct line has been decided. Your Government just don't have the balls to tell you.

As regards road journey times, I wouldn't be so quick to make that assertion on the basis of road projects under construction on the route. I know people in Kildare that are switching back to their cars when the red cow interchange is finished. Why? Because they reckon it will be quicker and less hassle. Tell them about the interconnector and they role their eyes to heaven. This is the reality that we face and fail to plan for. You know aswell as I do that the vast majority of people in Navan don't give a hoot about the railway. It's the same in the west (WRC). The western moaners were appeased quite cheaply. The eastern moaners are a different ball game and vastly out numbered by car loving commuters who want every other car user on public transport.

I don't blame IE on any of this. They are trapped in the world of politics and must play the game. They are also trying to administer resources to build all these projects. They are tied up on the WRC, kildare route and midleton at the moment. If everything was to go to plan they'd be facing into electrification of the Dublin area, interconnector and navan, all at the same approximate time. Thats a lot of money for the dept. of finance and an unprecedented amount of work for IE.

Sorry, as a supporter of navan, I still think its dead in terms of the direct route. You'd think that the scopping study would have been done before any announcement. Oh yeah. Thats right, it was done in the late 90s and the conclusion then was the same. Run as far as Dunboyne and build a P+R for navan as going all the way wasn't viable. But T21 was drafted by civil servants. That sums it up really.

packetswitch

08-01-2008, 19:32

Iarnród Éireann purposely put the boot in on this last night - and the word on the street it was to put pressure on the Minister in his own patch to come up with more money

That theory did occur to me today. Any word (official or unofficial) on Dempsey's reaction?

ofjames

08-01-2008, 19:41

im reading on boards that dempsey has come out tonight on rte and said that the navan line WILL definitely be built. Confusing stuff indeed if true

Mark Gleeson

08-01-2008, 19:42

http://www.rte.ie/news/1news/

Its not finanically viable but it is economically viable

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 19:45

im reading on boards that dempsey has come out tonight on rte and said that the navan line WILL definitely be built. Confusing stuff indeed if true

He was hardly going to say otherwise. Anyway, its not up to him.

For the record, I don't believe him. Last night I predicted he'd come out with this type of baloney.

JUST TELL THE GODDAMN TRUTH DEMPSEY.

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 20:49

That theory did occur to me today. Any word (official or unofficial) on Dempsey's reaction?

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/story.asp?stID=1801

Navan rail line 100% certain, says Dempsey

MINISTER for Transport Noel Dempsey yesterday (Tuesday) swept aside doubts expressed by Iarnrod Eireann on Monday about the viability of reopening the Navan-Dublin rail line and declared that he was "100 per cent" behind the project.
"It will happen," Mr Dempsey told the Meath Chronicle, hours after the rail company briefed Meath County councillors that the next phase of the reopening of the line, costing €578, was "not financially viable" and "would require the full capital costs to be borne by the Government".
He said that Iarnrod Eireann`s approach to the project had been "extremely conservative", and quoted the scoping study which had clearly stated that the project was a valuable one which would justify the use of public funds. The minister also said that the company had taken a very conservative view of projected population figures along the route using 2002 census figures.
Eighty-five per cent of the forecast population increase would have to be realised in Navan, Dunshaughlin and Kilmessan before the project could proceed. "Not only did they use 2002 census figures, but they did not take into account the projected population growth in Trim, which is expected to go from 7,000 to 17,000 in 10 to 15 years, and similar growth in Kells," added Mr Dempsey.
The rate of economic return from the restored rail line is marked in at four per cent, according to Department of Finance guidelines. Mr Dempsey said that the rate of return on the Navan-Dublin project would be 4.6 per cent, "so I have no doubt at all about the viability of it".
The reopening of the line is planned as part of the Government`s Transport 21 infrastructure programme. The first phase, from Clonsilla to an interchange with the M3 at Pace, is scheduled to open within two years.
Iarnrod Eireann has already announced that its preferred route, out of nine options, would follow the line of the old Navan-Dublin line which opened in the mid-1800s. A study on the viability of the reopening revealed that the emerging preferred route would use two-thirds of the pre-existing line, with an extension to create a station at Navan North to link up with an existing but now disused Kingscourt line.
Meath on Track, the organisation campaigning for the restoration of the Navan-Dublin line, said that it was disappointed Iarnrod Eireann had said the project would not be viable. "That is no surprise since no rail line in the State is viable, not one fully covers it costs," said its spokesperson, Proinsias Mac Fhearghusa.
"The reason the company is saying it would not be viable is because it is maintaining that the initial capital investment would have to be met out of running costs. What is also unfair is that the figure of €580 million for the project is a 2015 figure," he added.
Also included in the projected cost were fleet acquisition expenses of €78 million. "However, large parts of the existing network are to be electrified and all that diesel stock, which could not be used on an electrified line, would become available for Navan," he added.
The finding of the Iarnrod Eireann study on the Dunboyne to Navan railway line found that, over a 30-year period, revenue from passengers would just cover operating costs, leaving no surplus to cover capital investment.
The study was carried out by Roughan O`Donovan - Faber Maunsell on behalf of Iarnrod Eireann.
However, a meeting of Meath County Council heard on Monday that the project would be viable under criteria used by the Department of Finance to evaluate major projects in terms of the wider benefit to the community and the local economy.
Councillors heard that, in today`s terms, the cost of the line was estimated at €455 million but, allowing for inflation, this would rise to €578 million during the construction period in 2010/2013.
Jim O`Donovan of Roughan O`Donovan explained that a route closely following the old railway line with an extension to a second railway station in north Navan was the emerging preferred route.
He explained that it was proposed to provide a twin track along the route, as a single track and passing loops would have insufficient capacity to provide a reliable service.
Councillors heard that the journey time to Navan would be approximately one hour with trains every 15 minutes at peak times and stations at north and central Navan, at Drumree, Kilmessan and Pace, near Dunboyne.
There would be diversions from the old line to avoid the M3 between Pace and Batterstown and at Drumree to locate the station at the Dunshaughlin M3 interchange. There would also be diversions west of Kilmessan and west of Cannistown to avoid existing properties.
The study ruled out routes that would take in Ratoath, Ashbourne and Dunshaughlin but the emerging preferred route will travel close to Dunshaughlin. It was estimated that the extension from Pace to Navan would provide 5,600 additional daily passengers on the line.
Tom Finn, Iarnrod Eireann`s Transport 21 manager, said that 85 per cent of the current projected population growth was needed to justify the development of the line and even the slightest dip in population could have a significant effect on its viability.
He said that 25 per cent of the capital costs could be provided through development levies with the remainder being sought from the Exchequer. He said that while the project did meet the guidelines in terms of economic appraisal, there were a lot of other projects competing for similar Exchequer funds.
Meanwile, Mr Finn said he was confident that there would be a rail link from Dublin to Dunboyne in 2010. While a decision on the railway order for this project wasn`t due until 19th February, he was confident it would be granted, allowing work on the link to begin by the end of this year. He said it would take two years to complete and would be commissioned in 2010.

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 21:34

"Not only did they use 2002 census figures, but they did not take into account the projected population growth in Trim, which is expected to go from 7,000 to 17,000 in 10 to 15 years, and similar growth in Kells," added Mr Dempsey.

Ha ha ha!

I completely forgot that FF/CRH have the ability to rezone land, build houses and start tribunals. He's having a laugh at us. I apologise to the man. He obviously knows that Trim and Kells are to become cities!

"That is no surprise since no rail line in the State is viable, not one fully covers it costs," said its spokesperson, Proinsias Mac Fhearghusa.

Eh...they were built over 160 years ago, so their capital cost is irrelevent now. Navan's capital expenditure is being set against deliverable benefits. Its not an unfair comparison. Using existing infrastructure as an example is an unfair comparison. Navan is a new build surface line. The biggest in the history of this state.

What is also unfair is that the figure of €580 million for the project is a 2015 figure," he added.

I don't agree with that at all. Its a an inflation linked figure for the build period of 2010-2013. Its probably a conservative one at that. T21s figure was based on a 2002 estimate.

Also included in the projected cost were fleet acquisition expenses of €78 million. "However, large parts of the existing network are to be electrified and all that diesel stock, which could not be used on an electrified line, would become available for Navan," he added.

Having thought about this one, I feel its wild speculation. If it transpired the way you claim then Navan could have 10 year old plus rolling stock. Furthermore the electrification of the Dublin area does not mean that existing diesel stock is up for grabs. For example Drogheda will still claim a hefty dose of railcars post electric to service all stops to Gormanstown. Portlaoise will claim more railcars to service stops to Sallins. Don't forget Gorey and Carlow either. IE are already short stock. Navan will require new stock to service the proposed frequencies. No doubt about it.

He said that while the project did meet the guidelines in terms of economic appraisal, there were a lot of other projects competing for similar Exchequer funds.

QED Folks!

Im tellin ya, IE know the writing is on the wall. They didn't want the WRC. It robbed funds. They know navan has the potential to turn into another WRC. Half a billion yo yo's. It could actually kill off the interconnector. Dempsey wouldn't give a ****. All he'd care about is telling his constituents, "look I delivered the railway". (most of whom won't be on the f**kin train anyway!!) I'd love to see it happen, but the will/ability to spend isn't there unless something like the interconnector/metro doesn't happen. This Government left it all too late. The bill keeps going up and up. What happens from here on in will be political and highly dangerous.
Remember what I said earlier. IE only have so many resources. Some of them are currently being wasted in the west of Ireland. But the period 2010 - 2015 looks scary. I wouldn't like to be the one signing the loan cheque.

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 22:02

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 22:07

You are preaching to the converted, but you know that. Navan periodically bubbled to the surface politically over the years but like the snow of last week it never stuck.

Ask you a question. How many people travel through the doors of Hueston daily or say Connolly per day? To the nearest 10,000 say?

Yeah I know Im preaching to the converted, but its the best action this board has seen in weeks.;)

As for that question, heres one back.

Why?

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 22:11

Just out of interest, just as a comparative exercise for projected passengers numbers with Navan and other lines about the country

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 22:15

philip

08-01-2008, 22:21

Surely most public transport falls into this category of being "unviable"? Just take it out of my taxes Bertie-that's what I pay them for.

What a 'country' we live in.

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 22:22

Listen, 8,500 passengers a day is pretty decent for the Navan line. No one can argue with that and the cars it would take off the road. But a comparative exercise with total heuston and connolly figures is useless. We probably need figures for commuter lines like carlow, kildare and gorey. But remember they are running on lines that carry other traffic aswell.
I know but it is relevant. I couldn't give damn whether I take a train from Navan and it gets me to Dublin city centre in 50 minutes or 70 minutes.

I would prefer any service to another decade of waiting, and either path to Dublin is better that the grid-lock rat race through Blanch.

Point is from an economic perspective it does matter because if the long term vision justifies the direct line to Navan (and God knows we have waited long enough for the dithering to end) then that's what needs to be done.

We have passenger figures for Navan for the first time - maybe it's time to work through comparisons with existing services.

The figures for the line are based on northern line comparisons as well, just to add that in

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 22:32

I know but it is relevant. I couldn't give damn whether I take a train from Navan and it gets me to Dublin city centre in 50 minutes or 70 minutes.

I would prefer any service to another decade of waiting, and either path to Dublin is better that the grid-lock rat race through Blanch.

Point is from an economic perspective it does matter because if the long term vision justifies the direct line to Navan (and God knows we have waited long enough for the dithering to end) then that's what needs to be done.

We have passenger figures for Navan for the first time - maybe it's time to work through comparisons with existing services.

The figures for the line are based on northern line comparisons as well, just to add that in

For a start the gridlock through blanch is coming to an end long before any railway opens.

As for figures, Ive never seen any bar the overall yearly totals IE give for the entire network. The only new figures I see are the ones quoted for new builds. The only real comparison that you can make with navan is with the new builds such as the WRC or perhaps more so with Midleton. But realistically Navan is unique. Its a long abandoned route.

Indulge me.

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 22:38

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 22:48

I don't know - I was asking you becaue you have all the answers :D

Do a guesstimate based on number of services a day then and a rule of thumb guess on the load factors

Not scientific, use the Hueston timetable as a guess, say every train on the clock on a daily basis, throw them all in

Bear in mind I don't have an over-riding agenda with the direct route because the Drogheda line is still there, so I'm not worried how it stands up

Give it a go, g'wan

Ah no. I don't have those type of answers. Mark Gleeson has that kind of thing to hand. Ask him. I only talk the talk of the ordinary man who couldn't give a **** less about stats, figures etc. Except when it suits an argument and I have them to hand.

Jaysus. That was nearly as good as Dempsey.

By the way is boards.ie still down? I fancy a bit of rough!

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 22:50

Surely most public transport falls into this category of being "unviable"? Just take it out of my taxes Bertie-that's what I pay them for.
Just about all of it does. Funny thing is for such a negatie headline in the report, the content isn't all that negative

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 23:00

Surely most public transport falls into this category of being "unviable"? Just take it out of my taxes Bertie-that's what I pay them for.

What a 'country' we live in.

I agree Philip. But I don't believe the Government think that way.Unviable WRC got the nod. Unviable Navan may get the nod. Cork Co Co planned for nearly 30 years to get the nod. The Nenagh line is falling to pieces. Waterford - Limerick junct is the same. This Government havent a damn clue what they are doing or how they do it. There's no shape to any of the decisions.

But there's a conflict here. On one hand a new report into CIE is recommending a fresh look at phasing out subsidies. The DOT are to meet CIE companies with a list of questions. On the other hand the Government are commiting to "unviable" projects. Longterm somebody has to pick up the infrastructure cost of these projects. Fine if government accept them, but dodgy if they want out of the subvention game.

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 23:01

Jaysus. That was nearly as good as Dempsey.

Aye, but he's evolving and picking up new lingo though from hanging around with IÉ. Rail lobby groups are becoming 'Rail enthusiasts' under the new lingo, guess where he got that one

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 23:02

but dodgy if they want out of the subvention game.
Phew, thanks be to God that Navan isn't in the annual subvention or economically unviable catagory

Mind you all those passengers would be really viable on the Drogheda line

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 23:16

Aye, but he's evolving and picking up new lingo though from hanging around with IÉ. Rail lobby groups are becoming 'Rail enthusiasts' under the new lingo, guess where he got that one

A sad state man, a sad state alright. But hey I tried to change that you know. Its hard when enthuasiasts just keep peddling the same desperate material, even on this forum. One of the reasons I got out. I couldn't care less about enthuasiasts/train spotters etc. Now Im free to say what I like in a language that ordinary punters can understand. The shackles are off.

Keeping somewhat on topic, just look at IRNs sad contribution to the Navan debate. A headbanger who thinks routing the line through every town in meath would improve the projects "viability". Sorry, but I can't fathom that kind of ****e.

Ive exhausted my opinion on Navan. It won't be built. IE don't want it. The Government don't really want it. It all boils down to very simple reasons. Politicians think they are transport experts because they are politicians. IE know that the Government will select certain projects through ignorance and political strategy. God love them, but they are only trying to protect what is really needed. But Navan rail will disappear up the arse of the M3. A pity, but a reality.

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 23:19

Phew, thanks be to God that Navan isn't in the annual subvention or economically unviable catagory

Mind you all those passengers would be really viable on the Drogheda line

You should get some sleep.

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 23:20

I wouldn't be too worries about name calling, it's irrelevant.

And you may be right about the M3.

But either way the process needs to be exhausted

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 23:23

I wouldn't be too worries about name calling, it's irrelevant.

And you may be right about the M3.

But either way the process needs to be exhausted

Not name calling. Its my opinion based on extensive research and experience. He's a headbanger.

Navan Junction

08-01-2008, 23:25

Not name calling. Its my opinion based on extensive research and experience. He's a headbanger.
I was talking about Dempsey

Derek Wheeler

08-01-2008, 23:27

Ok.

But he's a headbanger aswell.

Mark Gleeson

09-01-2008, 00:14

Navan Junction

09-01-2008, 07:37

Ok, here are some really rough calculations.

Say on average, each Dublin-Cork train carries 350 passengers each.

And without checking say there are 15 departures per day from Hueston.

That would mean that approximately the same number of passengers use the CDE as would use Navan Dublin.

Maybe somebody else wants to come up with other comparisons

ACustomer

09-01-2008, 09:23

Two things strike me about this discussion.
1. If the Navan line gets built, it will be because the Minister for Transport just happens by good fortune to come from the Meath area? So much for a rational basis for transport decisions.
2. Is there any consistency between the methodologies used to assess road projects such as the M3 and rail projects such as Clonsilla-Navan? There should be, as they compete for capital resources, and ultimately for customers. Also is there any consistency in banging on about a new line being financially or economically viable while continuing to support existing lines which probably do no pass either test?

The whole mess reflects badly on the competence of both the politicians and especially the civil servants in the dysfunctional Dept of Transport.

Mark Hennessy

09-01-2008, 12:58

This is going to be moved to the members area shortly. This forum is primarily for passenger issues. The pros, cons and political ideology behind the possible reopening of a line is not a passenger issue

Mark can you leave the core of the issue available to the wider public.
If anyone in Navan except NJ cares about the railway they may want to read about it.

Mark Gleeson

09-01-2008, 13:45

The media reports and so will remain public

This is principally a forum for passenger issues

Derek Wheeler

09-01-2008, 19:59

This is going to be moved to the members area shortly. This forum is primarily for passenger issues. The pros, cons and political ideology behind the possible reopening of a line is not a passenger issue

Would all posters please refrain from the use of derogatory terms with respect of public figures. Last thing we need is trouble from some angry individual.

Is this kind of thing a passenger issue.......

When I went to the show in Sligo back whenever it was, I saw that the suspension was a combination of old school springs and some posh hydraulics or air suspension setup on top of that.

Experience has shown me that when it comes to suspensions on trains destined for Sligo and perhaps anywhere in Ireland, that the simpler and more old school the suspension, the better. The 2800s and Mk2ds (both good) vs the 29ks (crap) prove that you can get a better ride by not complicating things.

The conclusions I took from that were that these trains ride would be generally solid as the whole bodyshell rested on springs, but that the hydraulic thingy on top of it would have to be watched carefully.

This thread has wide appeal and deserves to be seen by all forum members and visitors. At least ordinary people can understand it.

As for derogatory terms about public figures, my comment is totally and utterly legal and above aboard.

Navan Junction

09-01-2008, 20:17

I'd agree with leaving it.

The point of the matter is that the project and every other project in Transport 21 should be rigourously examined.

The only concern I'd have is that rigourous examination was misinterpreted as resistance, but that is no reason not to debate it.

Just to adress a couple of points - nobody has ever seen the Meath project ever shown any favouritism at a political level from the county no matter whether the politician in question was Mary Wallace, John Bruton or Noel Dempsey.

I think the report is much stronger than the doomsayer headline intro thrown out there by IÉ at the presentation.

I would have thought once the decision was taken to spend €450m on a line at today's prices was made two years ago, the only real question after that was whether it would be a success in terms of passengers and covering it's costs.

The answer in the report was a firm yes to both.

Just to mention that an error was made in respect of the Section 49 levies in the report - they limited their radius to 1km around the stations.

Clearly the station in Dunshaughlin will be about that from the centre of town, and Navan is already developed within the 1km radius in Navan town.

Effectively the consultants inexplicably ignored any real potential for a comprehensive levy scheme.

There is more than a possability that MCC constrained the levy scheme which provoked IÉ into a negative headline intro. There is more to this than meets the eye, but what it is not clear.

The report did not come to a negative conclusion - even Midleton and Dunboyne are not expected to repay their build costs beyond the levy contribution level

Colm Donoghue

09-01-2008, 22:58

Rushed2nowhere

09-01-2008, 23:55

Quote
"Remember we said to would could 300 million (at 2004 prices), well we are proven right 455 less the rolling stock cost (which is normally separate) gives about 300 million"

Do Irish rail need to buy additional stock?

They have started the tender process for an extra 150 commuter railcars bringing the nunmber to 330 + 250 more DART carraiges. All these should be in operation by at least 2015.

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/national_commuter_fleet_investment.asp

By the sounds of it the govenment have allocated €250million to this project. If you remove the cost of the rolling stock I.R. are only €50million short.

I think the government should never have spent so much upgrading the N3. Instead of building the motorway they should have upgraded the N3. Now there is not enough money for the railway.

Again the politicians are guilty of short term planning.

eoin

10-01-2008, 00:53

Listen, I know in the great scheme of things €10 isn't that much to ask for, but the fact is that committee members (past and present) of RUI are some of the most clued in people in Ireland when it comes to issues like this. There is information and opinion available in this thread not available anywhere else. And I mean anywhere. I think it would be a shame to hide this from the public at large.

There are probably more people reading this discussion than you realise. I for one rarely post on this forum, but I find all of these issues very interesting. Please don't move this thread from public view.

Thomas J Stamp

10-01-2008, 13:19

robdrysdale

10-01-2008, 15:22

This from fxcentre.com

Govt "stalling" on Northside Luas plan
Thursday, 10th January 2008 02.43pm

Fine Gael claims that the government is stalling on plans for a northside Luas in order to benefit the constituency of transport minister Noel Dempsey.

It made the accusation today when it released details, acquired under the Freedom of Information Act, about a row over the proposed route.

In a statement, Fine Gael Senator Paschal Donohue said, "Plans to extend the LUAS into Dublin's Northside have stalled because CIE won't allow LUAS staff on to its land despite a direct request from the previous Minister for Transport, according to Fine Gael Seanad Transport Spokesman Senator Paschal Donohoe, who has received information on the dispute under a Freedom of Information request."

Senator Donohoe said the Fianna Fail Government has failed to resolve the dispute and suggested that Transport Minister Noel Dempsey may be putting his own constituency's interests before Dublin's transport needs.

Mark Gleeson

10-01-2008, 15:34

Derek Wheeler

10-01-2008, 15:41

It's funny how IÉ never whinged about building the line from Ennis to Athenry like this.
I'd say once the dual carriageway from Barefield to the M17 is built, coaches like BÉ or citilink will be quicker from Limerick to Galway.

The only road built that is profitable is the section of the M50 from the N3 junction to the N4 Junction.
Why is there this big concern about the capital cost?

Two people who worked for the government who were involved with this profitable road have served prison time having been convicted. One of them is of course completely innocent.
Another person who worked for the government and was involved in shennanigans nearby this profitable road served prison time too. but as Liam Lawlor said "Liam Lawlor never did anything wrong"

When the M3 is built and the M3/M50 junction finished and if the opw let busses and coaches use the phoenix, what will journey time for a coach to
the city centre from Navan be? compared to projected train times?

IE did complain about the WRC. They put forward similar arguments against it over the last 5 years. The Strategic rail review said the same. The only thing with Navan, in my opinion, is that the capital cost is an easy way out for government. (The WRC was a lot cheaper and less complicated)

IE don't want any of these new routes because they probably fear that subvention will not be increased to cover growing infrastructural costs. They are also aware of the demands on exchequer funds for new rail projects. I am not against navan. I have been one of its biggest supporters. But there has always been the possibility that it can become far too political and detrimental to whats most important - the interconnector.

A simple example is this. The WRC Ennis-Athenry is going ahead, while 2 existing lines are slowly dieing. (Limerick junct - Rosslare and Ballybrophy - Limerick.) This is because politicians are interferring and making the wrong decisions when they do interfere. Does it make any sense for existing lines in similar areas to the WRC to be treated this way? No it doesn't and its very poor management of infrastructure. The decision making process for the entire nation should have been taken out of the hands of CIE and Government. A dedicated agency free from the baggage of CIE and politics may well have been the preferred vehicle to decide whats what and where.

But back to Navan. Its a lot of money. So what? Well it can be used by the DoF as an excuse. The M3 may well be used as an excuse. Don't mind Dempsey. He'd say mass. There's more evidence against Irish Governments for breaking promises than keeping them.

I would suggest that post M3 and M50 interchange completion, journey times from Navan to Dublin will be decreased considerably. This may dilute public demand for a railway and be used by Government as yet another "excuse".

Navan Junction

10-01-2008, 15:44

When the M3 is built and the M3/M50 junction finished and if the opw let busses and coaches use the phoenix, what will journey time for a coach to
the city centre from Navan be? compared to projected train times?
I'm not sure. The M3 is set to reduce times by car by twelve minutes or something, and the buses already skip the gridlock in blanch.

The train would still knock the socks off it anyhow

Mark Gleeson

10-01-2008, 15:49

Wouldn't be so sure

Bus Aras 6pm back Nov 2005 arrived Navan 6:57pm, fluke possibly but it proves the point that the direct route to Navan is so important to be competitive

Navan Junction

10-01-2008, 15:51

Surely most public transport falls into this category of being "unviable"?

They do on an annualised basis in most cases too, which Navan wouldn't according to that report. Navan will be viable on an annualised running cost basis over 30 years.

The issue is build cost of €450m. But we all knew about that price tag going back how long? Years anyway.

The only funding surprise was the impotente section 49 levy scheme which in it's current format will collect next to nothing from developers along the route.

There is a similar cost to the KRP, and according to some there will be a only minor increase on passengers on that that €450m project.

Navan Junction

10-01-2008, 15:53

Wouldn't be so sure

Bus Aras 6pm back Nov 2005 arrived Navan 6:57pm, fluke possibly but it proves the point that the direct route to Navan is so important to be competitive
That was good - but traffic can be extremely eratic up here, and getting out of Dublin is generally much much easier then getting to it from Meath

Was that the night of the Navan railway public meeting where P11 backed the project with it's then only estimated €450m (but now confirmed) price-tag?

Navan Junction

10-01-2008, 22:12

Right, got a sample figure on a bus journey times from a Navan commuter today, just out of interest.

Got bus this morning at Arboyne at 7:35am, arrived Dublin at 9:25am.

Got bus this evening at 6pm, arrived Navan (Ardboyne) at 7:25pm.

Derek Wheeler

10-01-2008, 23:54

Was that the night of the Navan railway public meeting where P11 backed the project with it's then only estimated €450m (but now confirmed) price-tag?

Less of the inuendo on the board. RUI have continued to back Navan. I don't recall it changing.If you don't like what I said in my previous posts (despite clarification on the phone) then deal with me in private. What I said, I said as an individual. Im no longer a commitee member of RUI. If you don't like what other RUI members said, then deal with them individually.

For the record, there is more to life than this friggin railway. If questioning the project in terms of viability/deliverability forces you into remarks like that above, then you need to get out more.

Derek Wheeler

10-01-2008, 23:59

Thats utter rubbish RPA staff have the legal powers to enter any lands they need when doing so to carry out surveys and so on from the creation of a works order

This is more of the usual look at me politican

Sorry, but I read the news article and then your reply. How do you know that this didn't happen?

Anyone interested knows that the Broadstone line (and thats whats being referred to) is now a problem. CIE have gone public with plans that are a direct contradiction to what is planned under T21 by the RPA.

I have no doubt that this information is correct.

Mark Gleeson

11-01-2008, 10:29

Transport Act 2001 section 36 grants the RPA, CIE or their agents the right to access all lands in the preparation of a works order

Should the owner refuse, a warrant may be issued upon application to the district court.

I'm no solicitor but that to me means if CIE wants to block the RPA they need to go the high court to get an injunction. That would be public knowledge if it happened. Before that of course you would get the usual round of letters back and forward trying to get a solution. The RPA have been on site, that can be confirmed. Mountain molehill thing. I very much doubt its the first time the RPA have had to deal with a awkward landowner.

In that context the media report doesn't make any sense at all, since it implies the RPA dont have access when in fact they do

The fact it is the use of the future use of lands which is in dispute. This is well known, nothing new and indeed a study has been commissioned to resolve the issue in a open manner. The result is fairly well assured to be in the RPA's favour

The hold up on the Luas side is the continuing will they or won't they build the line to join the Red and Green lines. Its to be done by end 2012 which is 5 years from today basically, they don't need to submit the works order mid 2009, its not as if its delaying things

Thomas J Stamp

11-01-2008, 13:45

right, this is getting out of hand. stop bikering, and stop stalking about broadstone. We might as well be discussing a new station on the moon.

Derek Wheeler

11-01-2008, 14:19

right, this is getting out of hand. stop bikering, and stop stalking about broadstone. We might as well be discussing a new station on the moon.

A new station on the moon? That sounds cooool!But is it financially or economically viable?

ThomasJ

11-01-2008, 15:05

stop bikering, and stop stalking about broadstone
:D

Thomas J Stamp

11-01-2008, 16:06

:D

many a mistake revels the truth ThomasJ !!!

ThomasJ

11-01-2008, 16:11

Thomasjstamp can I be as bold as to ask for the meaning :o

Thomas J Stamp

11-01-2008, 16:26

bikering and stalking..... sums us up sometimes i suppose.

ThomasJ

11-01-2008, 16:34

ah i see.... forgive me for asking a stupid question :o

losexpectation

17-01-2008, 02:06

Rail Services Between Navan And Dublin is Financially Viable
Meath Chronicle
Editorial 19/01/2008
THE extraordinary confusion sowed by Iarnrod Eireann (Irish Rail) last week concerning the viability of reopening passenger rail services between Navan and Dublin has taken a further twist this week as it has been revealed that the senior manager who told Meath County Councillors the route was not financially viable has been removed from his post.
Transport 21 project manager with Iarnrod Eireann, Tom Finn, has been removed from his post following controversial comments made to Meath County Councillors last week about the planned rail line between Navan and Dunboyne not being economically viable and that "financially, you would not touch it with a barge pole because of the costs". The remarks are understood to have infuriated senior management at the State rail company.

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/story.asp?stID=1882&cid=128&cid2=

don't see any mention of this here

should this guy have chosen his words more carefully

Mark Hennessy

17-01-2008, 09:52

Interesting, you can be sure he wasn't towing the higher political line thats for sure.

The rail line may not be economically viable but it looks good as a colour crayon on an election manifesto.

Navan Junction

17-01-2008, 10:04

No, the report said it was economically viable.

His comments referred to financial viability as the build costs would not be recouped from revenue even though revenue would cover the annualised running costs. Has the Luas repaid it's costs or were the new intercity trains paid for out of annual revenue?

The financial viability vs economic viability seems to be standard in all reports about rail projects, check a few or ask Mark

To be honest, I'd have thought the comments about the Transport 21 budget being insufficient might have caused more ructions as that would have had implications on a national level

Either way, there you have it. It must be a big blow to the guy himself

Mark Hennessy

17-01-2008, 10:22

Sorry NJ about the ecomonic criteria. My main implication is that whatever he said wasn't what the man at the top needed to hear about a rail line on his patch.

It is typical of the political culture here about that someone who actually says something straight and direct (and maybe even the truth) is forced off the stage.

Navan Junction

17-01-2008, 10:47

Mark Gleeson

17-01-2008, 11:15

It is important to get some facts down

Tom Finn is correct in stating he wouldn't touch it with a barge poll (though we should wait for the actually agreed minutes of that meeting to actually prove he said that). The project is not profitable and there is a onus on Irish Rail not to engage in any activity which will further increase the loss unless the DOT agree to cover the difference

In the words of Dick Fearn CEO IE, anything is profitable given a large enough subsidy. Everyone knew it was going to make a loss

The 4.6% return is very shaky and doesn't stand up to aggressive evalaution, a slight reduction in demand over the estimates puts it in trouble. The other rail projects are 10-12% return

The cost of the line in either 2007 or 2015 prices is more or less exactly what informed observers where expecting, everyone is running around in panic as if it was some class of surprise

And let us not forget Transport 21 contains roughly 2 billion to cover for cost increases due to inflation etc over the 10 year window

As is always the case in Navan the whole thing hangs on Meath CC, will they raise the 25% will they actually get the zoning sorted out. When will they seek authorisation to move that damn sewer main

Navan Junction

17-01-2008, 12:37

I agree with you re MCC, particularly on the levies. They have to actively facilitate this project.

The levy element of the study was based on the 1km model for Dunboyne which obviously would not work on the section between Navan and Pace as they would yield very very little.

For example the huge development planned for east Navan would be well outside that as would many south Navan developments.

MCC need to play ball on this, but not hard ball

Just reiterate the study was based on 85% of projected population growth - Meath has a long history in recent times of well exceeding these projections. In addition that study was based on northern line comparisons where much of the line is backed against the sea

losexpectation

17-01-2008, 15:37

So the meath editorial headline is wrong...

I still ask if the Navan rail line isn't financialy viable which commuter line would be???

Mark Gleeson

17-01-2008, 15:51

losexpectation

17-01-2008, 18:01

There is a difference between financially and economically viable

Financially relates to the costs at company level, as in not viable need more subsidy
Economically refers to the country on a whole

You can't show economic and social benefits in the accounts.

I know that.

So the meath editorial headline is wrong...

I still ask if the Navan rail line isn't financialy viable which commuter line would be???

Navan Junction

17-01-2008, 20:38

There is a difference between financially and economically viable

Financially relates to the costs at company level, as in not viable need more subsidy.
Yes. But the line is being paid for by central government through Transport 21and MCC levies. When the line is built, only then will the day to day running costs and depreciation be costed to IÉ.

The report says that over a 30 period revenue will cover the lines running costs, though possibly not depreciation.

Assuming that IÉ aren't footing the bill for the line's construction (which they won't anyway and never were going to) then their cost base relates to running and depreciation.

The question is then is it fair to say that all lines around the country meet their annualised running costs and depreciation costs?

Because if they don't, then is the Navan line really that different to them?

Slightly different question - how many lines in the country actually even meet their annualised running costs, never mind depreciation costs?

Mark Gleeson

17-01-2008, 21:05

If you ignore depreciation the Dublin Suburban devision is 5 million in the black, given the young age profile of the trains depreciation hurts badly.

For several years in the early 90's the DART was fully profitable even accounting for depreciation

Dublin Cork is said to be profitable

Derek Wheeler

17-01-2008, 22:03

Not to worry Mark. The whole thing has been a pain, and the irony of the situation is that it wasn't a negative report as such. The best sound bytes were the negative ones unfortunately.

As these things go with the finance-babble of financial vs economic, it was quite good esp from the ridership perspective.

Its just been a pain in the ass that a casual remark or two has put in train a series of events which have managed to give the impression that it is a pet political project, which history shows it is not. And frankly, it would be so much easier to push for if it was a pet political project.

There was a history of broken promises on the mot site which showed that this could not be the case - the railway is only being looked at way after every other project has been advanced. The campaign for passenger rail services to Navan goes back to 1981!

I really do think it a strong possibility that the Transport 21 funding comment that led to this, and yes I'd imagine that it was politically inconvienient. Noel Dempsey has been taking flak over the non delivery of the railway for years in his own backyard so I'd imagine that whatever led to this, it had more likely than not more to do with the bigger picture of Transport 21 than Meath

Sorry NJ, I have to take issue with some of what you say there.

The Navan railway is becoming very political and very quickly. Its background in terms of promises and financial/economic viability is very similar if not identical to the WRC. It may not be a "pet political project" just yet, but the evidence on display would suggest its getting there. The only thing seperating it from the WRC is cost.

I agree with Tom Finn's comments regarding funding. (and its not often I agree with someone in IE) If the man has actually been demoted because of his comments, then it was no doubt coming from a political agenda. Remember we are not talking about the "bigger" picture of T21. We are talking about the rail investment side of T21. I believe that Tom Finn is referring to that. So removing him from his position due to his comments firmly sails the Navan rail project into the very murky waters of the political sea. There is no doubt about it.

Furthermore, demoting a man for saying this, while the same man and many of his colleagues have poured many doubts on more "economically viable" projects like the PPT, Sunday services through it from Kildare etc etc, strikes me as an act that was deemed by the DOT as too close to the political bone.

Its a Meath thing. Just like the the WRC was a western thing. I bet my ass that had Tom Finn said something similar about the interconnector, then he'd still be pushing the T21 buttons in IE and the DOT wouldn't give a toss.

Navan Junction

18-01-2008, 00:12

The Navan railway is becoming very political and very quickly.
Ok, I hear ye on that. I've always given out that politics shouldn't have a place in infrastructure provision. (At least not in the Jackie Healy-Rae Kerry tarmacing manner).

But even if it does get the nod doesn't mean it's not worth doing. Kick the politics if that happens, not the project

Its background in terms of promises and financial/economic viability is very similar if not identical to the WRC. Hmmm. Maybe, maybe not. Look at the only facts we have, from this report. 5,300 each way not including passengers from Pace and Dunboyne.

Furthermore, demoting a man for saying this, while the same man and many of his colleagues have poured many doubts on more "economically viable" projects like the PPT, Sunday services through it from Kildare etc etc, strikes me as an act that was deemed by the DOT as too close to the political bone.

Again fair enough. PPT, Kildare on Sundays etc. But you have to remember that Navan became "subject to further studies" on the IÉ website ages ago and Dick Fearn commented that the line "could be extended to Navan eventually" in a railway magazine in 2006 and no hackles were raised.

I really think the issue was publicising the cost of a Transport 21 project, saying that there was insufficient funding and also saying that a project that IÉ would not be footing the bill for was not financially viable.

By giving out the T21 figure (through deduction), by saying the T21 budget was inadaquate and innaccurate and by being seen to have taken a decision which really rested with the Department of Transport was the problem.

I disagree with you that it is a Meath thing. The levy issue is a Meath County Council thing, the Minister is from Meath but the Transport 21 thing in relation to hidden costings is a nationwide matter which just happened to come to a head in Meath.

Colm Moore

21-01-2008, 14:31

By giving out the T21 figure (through deduction), by saying the T21 budget was inadaquate and innaccurateWell this is one of the points I've been making since T21 launched. There is no publicly available list of projects, timetables, costs or specifications. It is:

"Railway to Navan" instead of:

"Railway to Navan, double track with stations at ..........; park & ride at ........: to commence construction in ..... and to open to the public in .....; operations with diesel railcars"

Navan Junction

21-01-2008, 15:21

Bingo.

Now apply that to every project in T21 and now you have the problem

It wasn't the boot into Navan. It was the boot into Transport 21

Derek Wheeler

21-01-2008, 20:04

Bingo.

Now apply that to every project in T21 and now you have the problem

It wasn't the boot into Navan. It was the boot into Transport 21

Tom Finn only looked after IE projects within T21. So lets not concern ourselves with the bigger picture for now.I guess your crapping yourself in case Finn lost his job over Navan. If he did (and it looks like that according to media reports) then the Navan project is well and truly shrouded in political muck. IEs statement on the matter, which ran in yesterdays Sunday Indo, is yet more evidence. It reads like a DOT rep stood over Barry Kennys head with a gun. Here it is in all its glory.

Iarnrod Eireann's scoping study and our presentation to Meath County Council, both stated that the Navan to Dunboyne line is economically viable - this is the only criteria that matters when evaluating transport projects, be they rail, road or other public transport.
Iarnrod Eireann's study therefore supports the development of the Navan line. The key issue for all such projects is that the economic benefits - in terms of time saving for citizens, reduced congestion, environmental benefits and reduced road accidents amongst others - justify the investment.
Our consultants report clearly states that the Navan rail line development meets and exceeds the Department of Finance's criteria in this regard, and that it is an economically viable project, as advised to Meath County Council last week.
As stated to the council at last weeks meeting, Iarnrod Eireann intends to progress this Transport 21 project with the Department of Transport and to develop the full preliminary design and business case in accordance with the processes for new capital projects.

Finn wasn't available for comment and was said to be on annual leave.

Now most here know that I am a huge advocater of the Navan line. I havent changed my mind. But if it becomes a political hot potatoe, I believe that it can turn into another WRC. Its just another symptom of political interference screwing up the order and merit of rail projects. If that continues to gain momentum, then Navan will develop many enemies. Remember its getting a new motorway. Combined with a railway, we could be looking at a total investment of nearly 1 billion on what is a very short corridor. If that even remotely looks like happening at the expense of another project in the GDA, then there may be a public backlash. We need more clarity from Government and not empty statements. The Tom Finn situation is very alarming. He may know more than we give him credit for and he may have paid the price.

Colm Moore

21-01-2008, 22:07

Minister was in Navan today, launching a bus service that started on 16December 2007. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055201420

Now apply that to every project in T21 and now you have the problemOr the solution.

Navan Junction

21-01-2008, 22:17

Bus Éireann Launches New Direct Service Linking
Navan, Dublin Airport & DCU under Transport 21

Monday January 21st 2008

Bus Éireann will today launch the first new service in the Eastern region under Transport 21 – the new 109A service connection Navan with Dublin Airport and Dublin City University.

The new service will be officially launched by Transport Minister Noel Dempsey TD and Bus Éireann Chief Executive, Tim Hayes at the Newgrange Hotel, Navan at 14.30hrs.

The service operates hourly in both directions with a total of 34 daily departures seven days a week.

Bus Éireann spokesperson Erica Roseingrave said: “Under Transport 21, Bus Éireann is introducing around 235 new vehicles into the fleet. These new vehicles will enable us to improve existing services for our customers, and to introduce new services, such as this one for which there is strong local demand.”

The service provides a direct and frequent connection between Navan, Ratoath, Dunshaughlin, Dublin Airport and DCU.

She stated: “By providing a direct and frequent link between Dublin Airport and Navan, the new service will broaden access to historic Co Meath and open it up to new tourism opportunities. It will improve practical access for students to DCU, making going to College easier and more affordable. For commuters, working in the College or Airport campus, it means they can now reduce their carbon footprint by availing of public transport to get to and from their workplace. Holiday makers can leave their cars at home and take the green option to the airport and in doing so, avoid parking charges.”

She added: “So far, take-up of the service has been very good. It has proved popular with people going to the airport, whether to catch flights or for work (approximately 4,000 people work on the airport campus) as well as students going to college. A direct, frequent and affordable service like this encourages people to leave their cars at home and get onto public transport, which is our main aim.”

The earliest service from Navan departs at 05.00hrs with departures operating until 21.00hrs. Services from Dublin Airport to Navan operate from 06.20hrs until 22.20hrs.

The service is operated by new, high specification, wheelchair accessible single deck commuter coaches, which have been introduced into the Bus Éireann fleet under Transport 21.

Fares from Navan to Dublin Airport/DCU Fares are as follows:

Adult Single/Return €10.30/€13.70
Student Single/Day Return €8.10/ €13.10

A host of new and improved services will be introduced by Bus Éireann in Co Meath this year. Service improvements due in 2008 include:

• A new 15 minute all day frequency on the 109 Navan Dunshaughlin Dublin route
• A range of service improvements for Ratoath, Ashbourne and Duleek
• Expansion of the Navan - Drogheda service to serve Trim, with more daily services.
• Timetable improvements on the Athboy, Trim Dublin service, including additional later services.

Derek Wheeler

21-01-2008, 22:39

Minister was in Navan today, launching a bus service that started on 16December 2007. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055201420

Or the solution.

Yeah. The solution to the problem. But that cannot and will not happen without an independent non politically affiliated transport authority for the GDA.

Navan Junction

22-01-2008, 08:38

Olivia Kelly, Irish Times, Tue, Jan 22, 2008

An Bord Pleanála has refused permission for an industrial estate beside the new M3 motorway near Dunboyne, Co Meath, on the grounds that it would damage plans for the Dublin-Meath rail link and constitute an "unsustainable car dependent development".

Meath county councillors last June voted unanimously to rezone the land for the 42-acre industrial /business estate, in contravention of their own development plan. The application for 32 offices, light industrial and warehousing units by Royal Gateway Holding Ltd, was subsequently granted planning permission by the council but was appealed by An Taisce to An Bord Pleanála.

In its ruling, the board said that the development contravened both national and regional policies and was contrary to proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

The development site was 1km north of a proposed railway station and park-and-ride facility and would be "prejudicial" to the development of a plan for the use of the land surrounding the major rail project. The site would be accessed by a link road to the M3 which forms an "integral part of the regional road and motorway system".

Additional traffic caused by the development would "interfere with the free-flow of traffic and the carrying capacity" of the road and thus "fail to protect public investment in the national road network", the planning board said.

"It is considered that the proposed development, which would be principally dependent on private car, would lead to the creation of an unsustainable car dependent development."

© 2008 The Irish Times

Colm Moore

22-01-2008, 18:58

An Bord Pleanála has refused permission ..... Dunboyne, Co Meath .... rail link ...I shouldn't speed read. :)

Thomas J Stamp

22-01-2008, 20:56

Whilst its nice to go on holidays in January you do have to be careful about letting cats out of bags. Maybe I'm cynical. The realpolitik is simple: keep dangling this Carrott, keep flogging this horse for all its worth - there are local elections to be won. Never mind the amazing political capital that can be bought where and when it really matters - in the FF parlimentary party rooms in Kildare Street when Bertie throws in the towel or is knifed in the back. Meath may get some coinage, Dempsey may become relativly important again.

I was wondering, though, at a billion euro between a road and a rail link to Navan, surely it is cheaper to bring the Dubs back home, say relocate them in Adamstown?

Derek Wheeler

22-01-2008, 21:26

I was wondering, though, at a billion euro between a road and a rail link to Navan, surely it is cheaper to bring the Dubs back home, say relocate them in Adamstown?

Sounds good alright. And probably cheaper.

Colm Donoghue

22-01-2008, 22:14

I saw someone say If Noel Dempsey told me the sun was going to rise tomorrow, I'd rush out and buy candles.

There's only one man who can convince me otherwise and he's not a member of this organisation.....

Navan Junction

23-01-2008, 10:13

That's politics for ya, and that's politicians. In general, they don't like public transport of any sorts (unless it can be privatised), so you are swimming against the current whenever any type of push is amde for improvements.

Like Shakespeare's whited sepulchre, flash new diesel trains, carparks and station upgrades are just cosmetic efforts to hide the fact that we aren't really broadening our railway in any great hurry, not even in capacity terms

At one stage of the state's existence, huge sums of money were poured into the railway. Most of it was eaten up in the dieselisation of the fleet, and much of it was wasted as staff numbers on trains remained at the same levels as on the more labour intensive steam trains

Anyway IÉ aren't hungry for network expansion and neither are politicians, unless they are given no choice by public demand.

That really is the key to whether Dempsey delivers or not. Not whether IÉ say they want to do it, not what any of us say here, not what any politicians think.

If enough voters get pissed off, and if enough of an impact is made on the politicians by the voting public then you'll see action.

The Navan railway is a typical football type issue

At the end of the day if the people of Meath demand the railway, chances are they will get it (at some point). In that respect, Noel Dempsey is irrelevant other than whether he feels sufficiently pressurised to act.

And that is down to the voters of the county. It's good sport debating whether he will or will not deliver, but at the end of the day he'll do what he has to do, and political form says polticians do no more than they have to.

It just depends on what the commuters in Meath are prepared to settle for. The Blanch N3/M50 interchange will solve the problem of today, but one thing we know is that nature hates a vacuum and commuting patterns will change to eat that capacity up as quickly as possible.

And then we'll be back to looking at how we can get people through Blanchardstown once again, and the only answer this time will be the railway.

Fundamentally, what is wrong with the N3 Meath situation is that despite being the busiest bus corridor in Ireland, it is still basically a public transport wasteland.

The M50 upgrade will ease conjestion in the short term, but traffic volumes on the M50 will result in traffic cascading back onto the N3 again in the not too distant future after it opens, and traffic will continue to grow on the N3, partially from the return of all of the Navan/Kells/north Meath commuters that go on a mystery tour cross country to the N2 at the moment and partially through growth.

Either way, the railway has a future in Meath. We can take a snapshot of the day that the M50 upgrade is completed and the M3 opens. Of course everyone will think life is good on that day and for while after it.

But that changes, it always does when it comes to the bottlenecks around Dublin. Capacity won't last for long where the M50 and it's approaches are concerned.

It's not down to Dempsey whether this happens. It will happen because it has to happen. The question is when, and whether it is Dempsey that delivers it, or some other politician

That again is down to the people of Meath

Navan Junction

23-01-2008, 10:37

This weeks Meath Chronicle

Wrong route with railway

(Editor, Meath Chronicle)

Dear sirs - So a senior Iarnrod Eireann manager has been removed from his post following his expressions of concern around the financial viability of reopening the railway from Pace to Navan (Meath Chronicle 19th Jan). Surely the real question however is why the group tasked with producing this report failed to recommend a route which could add in excess of 60 per cent to the catchment population of the line and so increase its viability. I`m speaking of the area to the east of the original alignment in South Meath, in particular the towns of Ratoath and Ashbourne. The combined population of these towns in the 2006 census was 15,777 persons in comparison to the 24,851 of Navan. With all public transport projects one of the primary concerns to the Department of Finance is not only the initial capital cost but the ongoing subvention levels required. In order to minimise that subvention it is necessary to maximise the railway`s catchment. If the railway is not to serve this area then it is difficult to see how it can be justified. Indeed a cheaper and more expedient solution using the freight-only branch from Drogheda should perhaps be re-examined.

Yours,
Mark Healy,
Alderbrook Heath,
Ashbourne.

Navan Junction

23-01-2008, 10:49

Indeed a cheaper and more expedient solution using the freight-only branch from Drogheda
Who knows, might well come back to this at some point

But god knows IÉ are no more interested in this than the direct option

Mark Gleeson

23-01-2008, 10:50

As the reported showed demand from Navan is very sensitive extra 10 minutes would seriously impact numbers

The 55+ million extra of course kills it as there isnt enough for the direct route anyway

Navan Junction

23-01-2008, 10:52

As the reported showed demand from Navan is very sensitive extra 10 minutes would seriously impact numbers

The 55+ million extra of course kills it as there isnt enough for the direct route anyway

BTW, that €55m was only to bring it into Dunshaughlin, not over to Ashbourne

Derek Wheeler

23-01-2008, 21:25

And that is down to the voters of the county. It's good sport debating whether he will or will not deliver, but at the end of the day he'll do what he has to do, and political form says polticians do no more than they have to.

That in itself is dangerous and can be attributed to many millions wasted/mis-spent over the years.

It just depends on what the commuters in Meath are prepared to settle for. The Blanch N3/M50 interchange will solve the problem of today, but one thing we know is that nature hates a vacuum and commuting patterns will change to eat that capacity up as quickly as possible.

You're right. But it will take many years to clog up the new N3/M50 interchange (construction starts next week) so how about we leave Navan's railway until say....2030?:D You can bet that what the current Government are thinking.

Fundamentally, what is wrong with the N3 Meath situation is that despite being the busiest bus corridor in Ireland, it is still basically a public transport wasteland.

Because of poorly planned residential development, that's rampant all over Ireland. Navan is by no means special.

The M50 upgrade will ease conjestion in the short term, but traffic volumes on the M50 will result in traffic cascading back onto the N3 again in the not too distant future after it opens, and traffic will continue to grow on the N3, partially from the return of all of the Navan/Kells/north Meath commuters that go on a mystery tour cross country to the N2 at the moment and partially through growth.

Either way, the railway has a future in Meath. We can take a snapshot of the day that the M50 upgrade is completed and the M3 opens. Of course everyone will think life is good on that day and for while after it.

But that changes, it always does when it comes to the bottlenecks around Dublin. Capacity won't last for long where the M50 and it's approaches are concerned.

It's not down to Dempsey whether this happens. It will happen because it has to happen. The question is when, and whether it is Dempsey that delivers it, or some other politician

That again is down to the people of Meath

I've one answer to all that.

2030

Navan Junction

23-01-2008, 22:11

I'm wouldn't argue with that - it could well be 2030, could be longer. I wouldn't even put a date on it. We had the 1998 annoucement, the 2001 announcement, and the 2005 announcement. And still nothing has happened 10 years on but another report.

One thing is certain - it won't be done anytime soon.

Navan Junction

23-01-2008, 22:19

Navan is by no means special.
I'd have to check but I think it is the only county town in Leinster without a railway.

Kildare, Naas, Portlaoise, Wicklow, Arklow, Drogheda, Dundalk, Tullamore, Mullingar, Dublin, etc are all rail served.

Navan is not special but it is different.

Derek Wheeler

23-01-2008, 22:19

And its a real shame that we have to think that. Shame on that whole bunch in Leinster house who haven't a clue and the conditioning they have inflicted on the likes of IE, RPA, DB and BE.

The Lambert puppet theatre (god bless them) aren't up to scratch, when compared to the biggest puppet show in Ireland....the one that has public transport puppets with longs strings stretching back to Kildare street.

philip

24-01-2008, 01:39

I was wondering, though, at a billion euro between a road and a rail link to Navan, surely it is cheaper to bring the Dubs back home, say relocate them in Adamstown?
Irrespective of the billion squids....it's scandalous that we're still allowing the sprawl out to places like Navan when big gaps exist in Dublin such as at Clonburris (http://www.clonburris.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=52). If only other local authorities would follow South Dublin's lead. That website is way ahead of everyone else and you know something....SDCC follow through on their 'masterplans' and do their best wrt. public transport integration. There are miles and miles of unused and rarely used QBC (not just buslane) in South Dublin. The council has built it.....where are the buses?

Colm Moore

24-01-2008, 01:46

I'd have to check but I think it is the only county town in Leinster without a railway.Dangerous language there - "county town". Theres many a county town that isn't the biggest of towns.

philip

24-01-2008, 02:02

I'd have to check but I think it is the only county town in Leinster without a railway.

Kildare, Naas, Portlaoise, Wicklow, Arklow, Drogheda, Dundalk, Tullamore, Mullingar, Dublin, etc are all rail served.

Navan is not special but it is different.
Naas can hardly be described as having a railway connection seeing as it was torn up many years ago and the M7 built over it. Sallins is not Naas and the road between the two is choked with cars anytime I'm on it.

Navan Junction

24-01-2008, 09:39

Naas can hardly be described as having a railway connection seeing as it was torn up many years ago and the M7 built over it. Sallins is not Naas and the road between the two is choked with cars anytime I'm on it.
True, but the people of Naas still use it despite the closer proximity of a 3 lane dc to Dublin and back.

Theres many a county town that isn't the biggest of towns.
Yes, and a case in point is where Trim was the county town of Meath.

But if you take Navan as a county town and the consider that the M1 is shadowed by a railway, the M4 is shadowed by a railway, the N/M7 is shadowed by a railway, and the N81 is shadowed by a rail, the you spot fairly quickly a sizeable gap on the parrallel N2/N3 north-east corridor which is not rail served.

It's a gap in the map, full stop.

I'm not arguing blindly for the Navan project. It's not even the most important project in county Meath, that honour goes to Dunboyne.

but common sense means that it will happen, the question is when. Navan Drogheda would have been an ideal interim solution (interim being a long long time in an Irish context) but until the direct link is forced to a negative conclusion it just won't be considered.

Point is that the sooner the direct link either comes off the fence on either the posative side or negative side then nothing will happen. Most people would bet on the negative side which would open the door to Navan Drogheda again, with the direct link being put back to a later timeframe.

But until the process is exhausted that can't happen. The planning of the direct link has to be pushed forward to a conclusion to get to that point, otherwise there will never be a conclusion to the merry-go-round.

Every campaign focuses on talking up a project. But not every campaign can expect a successful conclusion if it;s primary objective is not met.

Even if Meath doesn't get Navan Clonsilla when the current process ends, it will at least be left with a fully open door to get Navan Drogheda.

Ironically, campaigning for Navan Clonsilla may yet yield Navan Drogheda. None of us knows where this will lead to over the next few years.

If I were to bet though I'd say the process will exhaust with a no to the direct route for now leading to Navan Drogheda for the interim, and Navan-Clonsilla at a later date (but a real later date).

But again it doesn't really matter what any of us think - politics decides everything in the end

Navan Junction

24-01-2008, 09:47

It's not dead baby, it's just taking a break (http://www.meathontrack.com/navandroghedaraillink.html)

losexpectation

24-01-2008, 15:57

what do you reckon about this
Permission refused for M3 industrial estate
by Olivia Kelly

An Bord Pleanála has refused permission for an industrial estate
beside the new M3 motorway near Dunboyne, Co Meath, on the grounds
that it would damage plans for the Dublin-Meath rail link and
constitute an "unsustainable car dependent development".

Meath county councillors last June voted unanimously to rezone the
land for the 42-acre industrial /business estate, in contravention of
their own development plan. The application for 32 offices, light
industrial and warehousing units by Royal Gateway Holding Ltd, was
subsequently granted planning permission by the council but was
appealed by An Taisce to An Bord Pleanála.

In its ruling, the board said that the development contravened both
national and regional policies and was contrary to proper planning
and sustainable development of the area.

The development site was 1km north of a proposed railway station and
park-and-ride facility and would be "prejudicial" to the development
of a plan for the use of the land surrounding the major rail project.
The site would be accessed by a link road to the M3 which forms
an "integral part of the regional road and motorway system".

Additional traffic caused by the development would "interfere with
the free-flow of traffic and the carrying capacity" of the road and
thus "fail to protect public investment in the national road
network", the planning board said.

"It is considered that the proposed development, which would be
principally dependent on private car, would lead to the creation of
an unsustainable car dependent development."

are they saying industrial estates shouldn't be put next to entrances to national road systems?

but they were putting it next to rail access?

Colm Moore

25-01-2008, 22:29

are they saying industrial estates shouldn't be put next to entrances to national road systems? but they were putting it next to rail access?There is a risk that the carrying system of the transport system would be used by commuters (mostly in cars) instead of the delivery of goods and services. The location is rural, everyone would have to commute a substantial distance.

There is of course a secondary problem in the area with ribbon development. Yes, those big car parks at Dunboyne would be used by people who wouldn't have to pay development levies.

philip

26-01-2008, 00:02

I'm delighted with ABP and this decision. It's time we saw more local authorities' knuckles wrapped for innapropriate planning decisions.

Colm R

26-01-2008, 17:34

I am absolutely thrilled by this decision.

Are we finally going to see an end to bad development.

It was the one fear I had for County Meath, and that was the M3 corridor would become a long ribon of industrial estates from Clonee to Kells over the next 30 years. That would be unsustainable.

Now a bit of common sense at last. Meath County Council should hang its head in shame.

ofjames

26-01-2008, 18:31

how come the projected costing of the navan line is so high?

is there a particular reason for it or is that par for the course these days for a heavy rail build

Mark Gleeson

26-01-2008, 18:41

Cost is in line with our estimates, these things aren't cheap and they have to be done right

Navan Junction

26-01-2008, 23:48

how come the projected costing of the navan line is so high?

is there a particular reason for it or is that par for the course these days for a heavy rail build
Partly down to a vicious circle. The delivery date is 2015, so they are quoting 2015 prices as opposed to the current day prices which are about four and a half, or €130k less than the headline grabbing figure

The 2015 price of course makes it appear more expensive than heretofore expected but when you strip out the build inflation cost for the next 8 years then the figure isn't higher than expected by anyone.

There was no surprise in the cost, it was expected and known by IÉ and the DOT that this was what it would cost.

But the longer you wait, the longer it costs. Exactly ten years ago, IÉ carried out a report on the entire Navan Line (Clonsilla to Navan, none of your phases one to Dunboyne and two from Dunboyne to Navan).

Then, IÉ costed the entire line at £90m or so. But they didn't move on it then, and of course it was never going to get cheaper over time

To quote Pat Kenny, there is never a cheaper time to build things than now as the cost of infrastructure just keeps going up

There is a seriously severe whack of building inflation in that cost, especially if you compare it to the 1998 figure