Pay Parking at stations - unjustifiable rip off

[Thomas J Stamp]

I heard Barry Kenny on radio IE, sorry, Newstalk 106 breakfast show today. He was speaking about pay parking.

Now this is something we have touched upon before and indeed we have a position on it:

http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_issues/parking.php

But Barry Kenny came up with a couple of reasons to justify this policy and I regret that I didnt have a chance to take him to task on it (will one day though, Barry).

1. The charge reduces the usage of the car park facilities by those who dont use the train.
2. It encourages those who can otherwise walk or cycle to abandon their cars.
3. There was a reference to overcrowding on trains
4. The charge is €2 per day €5 per week.
5. The revenue is needed to pay for the upgrades

This is why those reasons dont stack up:

1. If you want just the rail users to use your car park then you operate a system whereby a token is issued to you by the station staff on showing your ticket which you use on exit or a system whereby you can use your ticket. If you have a season ticket you are given a ticket that the entry/exit barriers can read to allow you to exit at all times. At the same time you have a look at what the local parking charges are and you charge double so that anyone who really does want to park in the IE car park during their shopping will go elsewhere.

2. If you live within a killometer of a station you will walk. Some stations are not very assessabile to the vast majority of the local population- eg, Hazelhatch, Maynooth, Salins. There can be little option for many many people but to drive. Leaving aside the nanny-state element of this, why bother expand a car park (the rationalle given for the charging) if at the same time you are trying to discourage people from driving? Ergo, the principle will achieve 100% success when the car park is empty. This is despite the fact that the princely sum of €2 is not going to discourage anyone from driving in the first place, although it is noteworthy to point out that it is just about the price of a packet of Tayto on an intercity train.

3. This I found odd, and indeed I may have mishead it but a lot fo texters did mention the fact that this will do nothing to ease such overcrowding. Let's hope that we're not seeing a dim little bulb appearing above Barry's head entitled "rush hour surcharge"

4. The price is too small to discourage anyone from parking. I'd throw €2 at a cat to get it off my grounds so paying €2 means nothing to anyone, not even €5 a week. It is too small to act as a disencentive, therefoe it is a revenue generating device. Think about this: Luas introduced a similar small charge to stop casual customers using the rush hour service? Do you know anyone that stopped using it? Have you? Do you even notice that it costs more? Nope. The only thing that has changed on Luas is the balance sheet. Same will happen here.

5. It is amazing that a company, wholly owned by a major property developer, who has licenced the building of apartments and commercial developement on its lands for millions of euro, hasnt ringfenced that money for works such as this.

Also, can we please have the exact bill for each station car park redevelopment? Perhaps then we can ring fence each car park revenue to that development cost so we know that in some future date the costs will be eliminated. And, erm, if that is the reason, how come not every car park being redeveloped is seeing pay parking being introduced.

Anyway, Claire Byrne thinks you're all getting great value for money at €2, as its cheaper than any other parking in the area. Considering IE use this to deter parking, that hardly makes sence. If something is free today and €2 tomorrow I'd hardly call that value for money but if you want to tell her that it'll cost you .30C. Last year it was free, but I'm sure that its great value for money nonetheless.

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail have refused to back down on the planned charges at the proposed Pace and Dunboyne stations. Its not even up for discussion. Irish Rail refuse to accept that for the charge a physical security presence is then warranted

The good folks in Newbridge where told that they could either have an extended car park with a charge or nothing.

We are aware that these new car parks infact may not be costing Irish Rail any money since they is a huge massively undersubscribed fund held by the DoT to fund Park and Ride schemes

Like it says on our website, its not sustainable anyway to keep providing bigger car parks since its not addressing the actual issue, local area transport

[ThomasJ]

From The Irish Times

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motors/2007/1205/1196713281438.html

Extra charges for commuters
Patrick Logue

Thousands of motorists who leave their cars at train stations before commuting to work face extra charges next year, as Iarnród Éireann plans to significantly expand the number of pay-parking facilities across the Republic.

Motorists, who already face increases in motor tax in today's Budget and rising fuel costs, could see the cost of travelling to work rise by hundreds of euro per annum.

The rail company has already introduced four pay-parking sites but said it expects to open "dozens" more. The next pay-parking site is expected to be opened in Sallins, Co Kildare, in the coming months, while planning permission has been granted for a new pay-parking facility at Newbridge station.

Other locations where pay parking is planned include Rush and Lusk station, in north Co Dublin; Drogheda, Co Louth; Coolmine, Dublin 15; and Portmarnock, Co Dublin. Multistorey options are being considered in Drogheda, Coolmine and Portmarnock, Iarnród Éireann spokesman Barry Kenny told The Irish Times.

Gormanston station in Co Meath, on the Northern Commuter line, had its free-of-charge car park replaced with pay-parking in September.

Up to 60 cars were using the station on a daily basis before the new car park was developed. Half of them were parking in the existing small car park, and the remainder were leaving their vehicles on a public road.

"In Gormanston we now have 90 cars per day using it and it is a 250-space car park. It is an area where there is likely to be further development," said Kenny.

"Some people are still using the road, but the local authority will be marking it as a no parking area soon," he added.

Pay parking has also been introduced in Leixlip/Louisa Bridge station in Co Kildare, which is 80 to 90 per cent full on a daily basis, according to Kenny. Tullamore, Co Offaly and Arklow, Co Wicklow also have pay parking.

Iarnród Éireann is charging €2 per day for the parking facilities or a weekly pass for €5, representing at least an extra €260 per annum for motorists who commute by train. This is on top of hundreds of euro already spent on annual rail tickets.

The company says the money is being used to cover the cost of upgrading parking facilities including CCTV and improved areas for bicycles.

Labour spokesman on commuter affairs Senator Dominic Hannigan said the fact that the new parking charges were not regulated by the Department of Transport was a concern.

"Train fares are regulated and car parking charges which are part of the overall cost of travelling should also be regulated."

Recent census figures showed that 57 per cent drove a car to work in 2006, up from 55 per cent in 2002.



© 2007 The Irish Times

[ThomasJ]

Quick question re. coolmine station.

Heard a rumour that the Carpark will close for eighteen months when they are making the carpark into a double storey and they may be even closing the station down for some time. any truth to any of that?

[Colm Donoghue]

the existing pay parking council owned car parks in Arklow allow only 4 hours max. so IE will let non train users pay for the week for a fiver. sweet!

I wonder how the system will work for kiss and ride passengers, will passengers now need to be dropped on an unsafe road immediately outside a station car park?

Also you'ld have to wonder about the malice in no season tickets being issued to allow customers avail of tax relief.

Or instead of providing increased capacity they would try limit the numbers of customers...

[CSL]

You are assuming motives where none exist.

Whoever is building these things simply does not think in these terms that we can relate to.

[Mark]

This is a very interesting topic. You would think that someone travelling to the train station from within walking/cycling distance would see the incentive of actually leaving their car at home.

Questions arise though when access to the stations from within its catchment area are poor. No cyclepaths, poor footpaths, poor lighting. Poor ped and cycle crossings and unsecure bike parks etc. Also bus linkups could come into the equation, Portmarnock for example.

In an ideal world these improvements would be carried out either before the pay parking comes into effect or as part of the car park upgrading works.

Sadly we live in Iarnrod Eireannland.

[Mark Gleeson]

The position on charging for car parking is quite simple

If you pay you expect something in return, there is a high level of vandalism and theft reported at some station car parks despite CCTV, if there was a visible security presence then I think everyone would be a little more agreeable to a charge, this is the consensus which formed in Newbridge earlier this year, its the compromise position and a reasonable one.

Irish Rail have refused on several occasions to provide security if the car park was charged for

At the moment you get charged to park where you parked for free last week with nothing extra provided

[dowlingm]

The position on charging for car parking is quite simple

If you pay you expect something in returnWhat do people who pay local authorities for parking on public streets get?

There is no entitlement to parking in any business - it's essentially a function of demand. If service is undersubscribed you make it free to encourage use. If the trains are jammed and you'll get the passengers no matter what why give away what you can charge for? At the least restricting free parking to premium customers (monthly pass holders) is reasonable while charging the occasional user.

If IE charge for parking then maybe local authorities will be forced to make local connecting transit a reality.

[Terrontress]

The one thing I will say is that the car park which I am most familiar with, Donabate Northbound, has some of the worst parking I have ever seen.

I have seen people drive into other cars twice while trying to manoeuvre out of the gate. The width of the gate is reduced to the size of one car parking space and there is usually someone parked perpendicular to it up the middle of the carpark.

The access road has cars parked all along the footpath and the side of the road with no footpath has double yellow lines which are ignored daily.

It is not uncommon to see people take up more than one space through careless parking over the white lines.

At least if pay and display parking were to be bought in, the fees would pay for the cost of sending clampers out to make sure people park properly.

Am I right in thinking that it is wrong to expect resources be put into patrolling car parks for bad parking where there is no revenue coming in from them?

[Mark Gleeson]

Well Portmarnock got a nice car park in recent years

Its free

The clampers visit daily and deal with anyone who parks outside the defined spaces at €65 or more a go it seems to work just fine

If you look at the planned Pace car park, 1000 spaces, assuming a average yield of €1.50 per space per weekday thats €7,500 per week and thats not including the clamping fees on anyone who breaks the rules.

Its a lot of cars a lot of money will there be a security presence, no
Will the car park be used by non rail passengers, no
Are Irish Rail paying for it, no

[shweeney]

how can IE justify charging for carparks that they are not paying for themselves?

In Greystones there is a large park and ride, but it was built on council land with DTO money and as a consequence it is free (though it does suffer from some security problems). What's the difference between that and what's planned at (for example) Pace?

[Mark]

Well Portmarnock got a nice car park in recent years



IE are planning a multistory car park in Portmarnock and Coolmine.

[Colm Donoghue]

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0610/D.0610.200511240034.html

bearing in mind Bary Kenny is quoted as saying there is no other way to pay for these improvements at
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-rail-defends-83645aweek-car-park-charges-1239057.html

"This is simply about covering the cost. If there is any surplus, it will be reinvested in the service, but we wouldn't anticipate any. The only other way (to pay for these improvements) is to factor in the cost into the rail ticket."

Either you the passengers are being screwed by an ignorant Irish Rail who were unaware of the capital funding, or you the passengers are being screwed by an Irish Rail who are aware and in receipt of capital funding, or some other as yet unexplained thing is occurring.
Ask your local Govt TD.

[CSL]

A quick look at the Subvention review shows :

Goals:

"To integrate public transport and non-public transport modes
An understanding of changes in provision of car parking at stations,
cycle parking at QBC bus stops, etc. will inform the overall assessment
of performance and the issues impacting on performance, although
they are not directly related to operational expenditure."

In consultation with the Steering Committee, the view was taken that the assessment
of the achievement of integration and sustainability objectives should not be an area
of focus for the expenditure review.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[James Shields]

While I'm thrilled about the prospect, paid parking is something I could suffer, especially since I can cycle to the station, it would give me an added incentive on those days I'm feeling lazy.

There are two aspects I have an issue with. As far as I know it's a pay and display system, so you'll have to allow an extra five minutes to feed money to a machine and stick the ticket on your windscreen. It will be infuriating watching your train leave while you pay for your parking. Passengers who park every day should only have to endure the ritual once a week, but occasional parkers who don't know ahead whether they'll need parking just lose another five minutes of their valueable time.

The second point is that in order to pay a €2 parking fee, I have to earn nearly €4 and pay tax on it. I can already get the tax back on my train ticket. Why can't I pay for parking at my choice of station with my yearly ticket and get tax back on the lot? That would also solve the problem stated above, as I would have a yearly parking pas in the window of my car.

[plant43]

2. If you live within a killometer of a station you will walk.


This is not actually true. I used to know a family who live in Skerries within a kilometre of the train station. Every morning, three cars from that house would be driven to and parked in the train station. This wasn't an isolated case either. I would wager that most cars parked in that station carpark were from houses within one kilometre of the train station.

People are incredibly lazy in this country and (mostly) when they have the option of driving short distances, they will drive the short distance.

[Mark]

Hopefully the pay parking measures will deter those situations. I feel that Iarnrod Eireann could engage in some awareness campaigns at some of the other stations suffering from people driving short distances. Reminders to people that it only takes 10 mins to walk 1km, costs €X per km to run your car, pollution per km etc..

[karman]

It's all very well to say that people who live within a km of the station are lazy for driving and should be walking, but this doesn't take into account:

1. The climate... it's hardly mediterranean! :) I for one do not like arriving at / sitting in work all day in a damp suit or have a damp rain suit hanging up in a small office.

2. The quality of roads, footpaths & street lighting around many outlying stations leaves a lot to be desired. I have had cars come uncomfortably close to me on the narrow road down to Louisa Bridge station... this does not encourage me to walk.

3. Other tasks achieved on the way to the station such as dropping kids to creche or school.

I may be missing the point here, but I think paying €5 pw for a car park is infintely preferable to parking on a muddy verge on a poorly lit road. People are voting with their feet...or their wheels when they are too lazy to use their feet :) ... the car park at Louisa Bridge is almost always full by 9 a.m. on a weekday.

[plant43]

Hopefully the pay parking measures will deter those situations. I feel that Iarnrod Eireann could engage in some awareness campaigns at some of the other stations suffering from people driving short distances. Reminders to people that it only takes 10 mins to walk 1km, costs €X per km to run your car, pollution per km etc..

They could run awareness campaigns till they were blue in the face but I don't think it would change very much.

[plant43]

It's all very well to say that people who live within a km of the station are lazy for driving and should be walking, but this doesn't take into account:

1. The climate... it's hardly mediterranean! :) I for one do not like arriving at / sitting in work all day in a damp suit or have a damp rain suit hanging up in a small office.

2. The quality of roads, footpaths & street lighting around many outlying stations leaves a lot to be desired. I have had cars come uncomfortably close to me on the narrow road down to Louisa Bridge station... this does not encourage me to walk.

3. Other tasks achieved on the way to the station such as dropping kids to creche or school.

I may be missing the point here, but I think paying €5 pw for a car park is infintely preferable to parking on a muddy verge on a poorly lit road. People are voting with their feet...or their wheels when they are too lazy to use their feet :) ... the car park at Louisa Bridge is almost always full by 9 a.m. on a weekday.

1. The number of days when you're washed out is minimal. I cycle every day and the number of days I'm rained on is actually not that great.

2. Funding should be diverted from improving car parks to improving pedestrian access to train station.

3. And so the vicous cycle continues. Children are growing up thinking that the only way to travel short distances is to drive. Back in my day (and it's not even that long ago) we walked 30 minutes to school and we liked it. Children can be brought to school on foot (or on bike, quite an impressive range of accessories for that these days).

It can entirely be put down to laziness.

[Mark Gleeson]

The problem is in the vast majority of locations the station are not within reasonable walking distance, especially given the poor development and planning standards pushing housing into green fields miles from anywhere

So
Rush and Lusk
Gormanston
Drogheda
Bray
Sallins
Newbridge
Kildare
Templemore

Newbridge, Sallins and Gormanston where free and either are or will be charged
Templemore is being extended but won't be charged

The only progress we have had on this is confirmation from Irish Rail that they are now looking at including the parking on annual ticket after we raised the issue.

Parking is the solution, the only realistic solution is proper local bus services. Note Rush and Lusk has a bus stop but not much of a service, same thing can be said of Sallins and Hazelhatch where there is a service but its a joke

[plant43]

The problem is in the vast majority of locations the station are not within reasonable walking distance, especially given the poor development and planning standards pushing housing into green fields miles from anywhere

Newbridge


I don't think this statement is true of Newbridge. The station is not too far from the town centre and I think most of the town is within reasonable walking distance of the station. Plus the only housing developements that I know of going on in Newbridge at the moment are near the station (Meadows at Cornelscourt, Roseberry Hill, Rosconnell and some apartments that I can't remember the name of). Nevertheless there's still a good few cars that go from Roseberry Hill to the station in the morning. Mind you, the road over the railway bridge needs to be upgraded to improve pedestrian access.

Also for Lusk, I'm pretty sure that if a footpath was laid from the village to the train station that more people would walk, as it's not that far from the village to the station.

[Mark Gleeson]

If you live next to the station you are lucky, if you live anywhere else in Newbridge its a long long walk

Its 10 minutes just to get to the post office on the main street, 10 minutes is the limit to what people are expected to walk to reach public transport

[Derek Wheeler]

I was the first person to speak of "subsidised" local bus services for commuter belt rail stations. It is a concept I stand over and would defend to the end. In terms of Newbridge, most housing development has taken place on the opposite side of the town. (Green road and towards Kilcullen) Further development on the station side of the town has happened along college road and its so expansive that very little of it is within walking distance of the station.

Car Parks are unsustainable. Im no tree hugging green party member, but the practice of extending car parks and charging for them is counter productive to public transport. It causes localised congestion. For every car we stop going into Dublin through park and ride, we place it on local roads in communities that aren't capable of dealing with it. A station car park should be a luxury and not a revenue generating necessity. Public transport is about integration. The bus should integrate with the train and eliminate a substantial amount of road traffic.

In Sallins, the local rail feeder bus has not changed its timetable, route or capacity since it was introduced in the early 90s. Its now hardly used because its out of touch with how Naas has developed.

Subsidised bus services feeding into rail stations would be the correct way of doing things. But when John Lynch (chairman of CIE) talks with pride about the Irelands forthcoming biggest park and ride in Dunboyne, you should realise that even the states official transport provider is fuelling car dependency.

[Colm Donoghue]

Subsidised bus services feeding into rail stations would be the correct way of doing things. But when John Lynch (chairman of CIE) talks with pride about the Irelands forthcoming biggest park and ride in Dunboyne, you should realise that even the states official transport provider is fuelling car dependency.

This is the John Lynch who travels to station openings not by bus eireann, Irish Rail or even dublin bus but by his company merc.....
just like the head of any other property development company.

Noel Dempsey said on the one o'clock news on radio one a few months ago that the gardaÃ* won't let him use public transport, but everyone else should...

this kind of crap comes from the top.
cie won't provide the services, as the bus companies are in competition with the rail company to provide commuter services, and won't work in conjunction with them to serve the citizens of the country.

There wouldn't be as much of a need for park and ride at Pace if ther train line went to some town with a bit larger population, like about 24,000 more maybe...
but hey we have to build a tolled motorway, so we can't be reducing car dependency until the drivers have paid the toll.

[Mark Hennessy]

There wouldn't be as much of a need for park and ride at Pace if ther train line went to some town with a bit larger population, like about 24,000 more maybe...
but hey we have to build a tolled motorway, so we can't be reducing car dependency until the drivers have paid the toll.

The drop off in property revenues for the govt will not be allowed to happen with car users.
They are a cash cow for the govt and in the absence of any decent PT will stay that way.

[Colm Donoghue]

Public transport costs the govt money
Private transport gains the govt money ( unless you cycle a bike bought abroad)

[Colm Moore]

Public transport costs the govt money
Private transport gains the govt money ( unless you cycle a bike bought abroad)

Public transport gets people to work, where they can pay there taxes.

Private transport gets people to work late.

Remove the cars and we can all get to work on time.

[MOH]

Public transport gets people to work, where they can pay there taxes.

Private transport gets people to work late.

Remove the cars and we can all get to work on time.

Not in this country. I lost at least 30 hours of work last year due to late DARTs.

[Peeved]

I drove to Newbridge station this morning at 8.05. I drove around for 20 minutes looking for a space to no avail (Missing trains that pulled in) Went to the ticket office and asked if would be okay to park in a certain location because there were no spaces he said it was at my discretion. I asked would there be a big sticker on my car when I got home and he said he wouldn't be putting them on but he couldn't guarantee if one of the others on later in the evening might.

I have often gone to the station at that time and gotten parking I can't understand why this morning is so bad (I realise that last week some people were not back in work) We need more spaces but we shouldn't have to pay on top of the annual commuter ticket - trains are expensive enough for those of us travelling from Newbridge. I hate Iarnrod Eireann

[Mark Hennessy]

Hi Peeved,

Welcome to the forum.

Went to the ticket office and asked if would be okay to park in a certain location because there were no spaces he said it was at my discretion. I asked would there be a big sticker on my car when I got home and he said he wouldn't be putting them on but he couldn't guarantee if one of the others on later in the evening might.


I have to say that "shrug your shoulders" attitude from some IE staff is really annoying and once again the sheer inconsistency that is being displayed from one staff member to another is what drives folks mad.

Either IE are enforcing the parking or they aren't.

[comcor]

As I was getting the horribly early 5:15am train to Dublin last week, I drove to Kent Station instead of walking as I normally would. The parking charges there are odd. €1.50 per hour or €6 per day with no need to prove you are a rail passenger. Seeing that parking in neighbouring streets is €1.80 per hour, this is disadvantageous to rail users.

I've heard from others that if you want to park there, you are only guaranteed places for the 5:15 and 6:30 trains and after the 7:30, you can forget it. It's strange to be calling for an increase, but in this case, it would seem justified.

[plant43]

I drove to Newbridge station this morning at 8.05. I drove around for 20 minutes looking for a space to no avail (Missing trains that pulled in) Went to the ticket office and asked if would be okay to park in a certain location because there were no spaces he said it was at my discretion. I asked would there be a big sticker on my car when I got home and he said he wouldn't be putting them on but he couldn't guarantee if one of the others on later in the evening might.


I think I know the guy you are talking about in Newbridge station and that pretty much sums up his attitude.

In relation to parking in Newbridge station, I think alot of cars are coming from estates that aren't really too far from the station. The stream of cars that come from Roseberry Hill every morning is really quite shocking.

[hoopsheff]

If IE charge for parking then maybe local authorities will be forced to make local connecting transit a reality.

Its all well and good suggesting local transport/feeder buses. I get the train to Hazelhatch which has a feeder bus. The problem arises when the train is late (which it frequently is) then by the time you get to your station the feeder bus has then left. Its then a minmum of a mile walk to the nearest housing estate..having to cross a busy road between a bridge and a corner..onto a half finished footpath (most of it is done but the end bit isnt fully completed yet).

Although I understand it is only a small charge that IE are suggesting, it is contrary to the governments stated plan to encourage more use of public transport...by making public transport more expensive it makes driving a more likely option for some people.

[hoopsheff]

Does anybody know if HHatch carpark will be charged for?

[Mark Gleeson]

Company policy is yes if they have a captive market

So Thurles, Templemore etc no charge

Anywhere in the commuter belt yes

There is no talking with Irish Rail about this, they refuse to listen and refuse to offer any kind of compromise

[hoopsheff]

they are planning on opening the new car park in HHatch prior to the entrance being properly finished....entrance being through the temporary carpark.

[drykin3]

As promised by Irish Rail, pay parking at a number commuter stations was introduced by irish Rail today. Charges are €2 per day or €8 per week.

This is an extremely disappointing, unjustifiable, retrograde step. Firstly, in the current climate of carbon footprints and climate change, it actively discourages people to use public transport. A significant number of commuters have no choice but to drive to Irish Rail train stations, in particular those at stations furthest from their dsetination (Dundalk, Drogheda, also Longford when charges are to be imposed from November). These stations are used by commuters who live several miles from the nearest train station and have no other public transport option.

Secondly, at €2 per day, the annual charge for parking at an Irish Rail car park is approx. €480 per annum, meaning a top-rate tax payer would have to earn over €800 gross just to pay for this new charge.

The reason given by Irish Rail for introducing pay parking is that revenue collected will be used to finance improvements to existing car parks, i.e. provision of extra spaces. This argument falls down for a number of reasons:

Almost 2/3 of revenue collected is going directly to a third party (according to RTE) who have been contracted to collect revenue and clamp cars without a valid ticket.

Several train stations do not have any space for additional car parking (Malahide, Dundalk) which means that commuters being charged to park at these stations are effectively subsidising car parks at other stations.

According to the Sunday Times, "of €38.7m offered to provide car parks in the outer suburbs and commuter towns over the past three years, only €5.6m was taken. Some €7.4m was offered to local authorities in the greater Dublin area in the last five years, yet just €1.3m was used. This year €5m was available, but none was used." If Irish Rail really was serious about improving park and ride facilities at its stations, surely it would have availed of at least some of this funding.

Finally, in practical terms, I noted today that the €8 per week charge is, in practical terms, a complete non-runner. Essentially, buying a weekly ticket gives the user the right to park, provided there is a space. Someone who buys a weekly ticket and turns up during the week only to find that the car park is already full has a worthless and unusable ticket. In addition, I note that NCPS has taken advantage of the introduction of pay parking to increase their clamping charge from €90 to €120.

[Mark Gleeson]

Two parallel threads running with same topic

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4438