View Full Version : A damning indictment of Irish Rail's Intercity service.
Read this thread on Green Issues on Boards.ie about a week ago, I didn't know it was this bad, particularly vis-a-vis international standards.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055188717
Thoughts?
Thomas Ralph
01-12-2007, 10:48
Just a bad day I think and a lack of familiarity with the regular procedures.
Mark Gleeson
01-12-2007, 11:02
That guy just has a problem
1. This place with the rubbish and fire extinguisher is behind a locked door and is the luggage van, there is then another door in the first coach vestibule then the sliding door in the first coach. The luggage area is totally off limits, thats called looking for trouble where there isn't any
2. Crossing a closed ticket barrier is an offense, if he had waited the IE head would have told him to board the first coach
3. It is fairly common to issue a supplement ticket for traveling in a higher class
4. He could have gone second class for 31 euro if he booked online
5. Having a split between ticket sales and collection machines is again normal, to be fair to IE at least they take cash at the machines, Virgin trains in the UK are obsessed with credit card sales
6. IE's online ticketing system can handle all these
*The options available when buying a ticket on French railways (depending on train type) include:
1) One way and round trip 1st and 2nd classYes and first out second back is also possible
2) Facing or your back to the direction of travel Yes, you choose the seat
3) Solo seats when travelling on one’s own Can't see the point
4) Duo seating for two people travelling together – with the choice of face to face or beside each other. Yes, you choose the seat
5) If you are travelling on the same train as a business contact, if s/he tells you his car and seat number, you can enter these data and the system when making your reservation, and it puts all parties sitting together – despite the fact that they have made their reservations independently. Yes, you choose the seat, just get the seat number from your friend
7) Window or corridor seat preferred?Again you choose
7. Staff attitude is a fair cop but being ignorant and troublesome is asking for trouble
8. Ride issue is known
9. Power sockets work fine once you push the reset button in, of course he could have asked
10. If he had tried this in France he wouldn't have even been let on the train since its compulsory reservations on the bulk of long distance services, all TGV services
Wow talking about wanting trouble !!, If you want to find something bad your going to find the service bad.... """seat your ass down on the seat of the train, zip your drink and enjoy the freakin journey"""
StephenM
01-12-2007, 15:41
Someone should buy that person a ticket on any flight out of here, they obviously don't want to be in this country. :mad:
Mark Gleeson
01-12-2007, 16:23
To be fair he does make some valid points about the staff attitude and presentation.
His whole thesis about ticket sales and reservations is utter rubbish
Agree, No staff member in any company should have this attitude. I have to be honest when saying this about 90% of IE staff have some serious problems in attitude and I think they should be dismissed from the job.....
The guy from the journey has I agree good points everything expect the Online booking there's no flaw in that its just there attitude.
I remember a time when I lost my ticket first time ever, I put it in one of the ticket machines at Connolly for the 18:35 Rosslare service and walking up to P5 I noticed I had nothing in my coat pocket and I went back to one very polite guy and he said its okay you passed the ticket check.... I knew the guy at Gorey train station and so I rang him standing at P5 to inform him of my situation he also said its fine if you need me to comfirm to the ticket inspector about your ticket just ring the station so I said thanks and that was that. UNTIL the ticket inspector came around at rathdrum when the train was standing at the platform he said ticket, I told him about the ticket situation and I offered to ring Gorey train station just as prove, He said you dont have a ticket, I said no and explained to him that the ticket officer at Connolly also said it was okay. I rang Gorey train station and the train ticket inspector said "did he ring you about his ticket" Gorey said "Yes I am aware of his situation I sold the ticket to him this afternoon"... After the train ticket inspector hung up he said You dont have a ticket please get off the train, I was shocked I mean who does this guy think he is anyway I existed the train with fury. About 10seconds later the ticket inspector let me back on the train in through the drivers cabin and I sat down. Arriving at Gorey this ticket A-hole came down to me and got my arm and gripped it and brought me to the Gorey officer who was on the platform. I said to the train ticket inspector will you let me go. The Gorey officer said yes is this the guy who I sold the ticket this afternoon then the train inspector saying "Sorry" and walked back to the train I said just sorry after everything you've done Oh No believe me you will hear more of this........ I wrote to Iarnrod Eireann and told them of this manner I was treated in and they wrote back "Dear Mr.Keith xxxx, I deeply apolgise for the manner that our staff member treated you in. I have followed up on your details regarding time/date and as of today the staff member you were treated by is dismissed from working with Iarnrod Eireann. Thank you for writing to us regarding the manner of this staff member, Again i deeply apolgise and I hope this will not affect your travelling on the Rosslare/Gorey rail service.
I havent seen this guy since so the company is much better without people like this....:D :D :D
Mark,
That's actually not the normal situation on the CDE.
The luggage van is open to the rest of the train, the doors are rarely closed and you can see into it / walk into it without any problems.
Perhaps the doors *should* be closed, but it's never been the case.
I've also been on trains where the glass doors failed / we bypassed at the head of 1st class and the luggage van doors were wide open. This resulted in a stench of rubbish wafting through the unnecessarily drafty coach.
The problem is the on-board cleaners walk in and out of that area and don't keep the doors shut.
Also, it's questionable as to whether on-board cleaners should be hanging around in that area if there are indeed loose heavy objects.
I would also think it would be prudent practice to lock down / belt down heavy items in there.
You can get large items being carried in fast track service and also I've seen items of heavy railway equipment i.e. parts for trains en route to Cork in there. These large metal objects could potentially fly around if the train crashed / derailed.
If stowed in the middle of the coach, they could potentially shoot through the doors and into the first class area. Those glass doors wouldn't stop anything.
However, I would be more worried about the poor unfortunate cleaner who might be 'hanging out' in there. He/she could quite easily be pommelled by heavy objects. I think the HSA/RSA needs to take a look at how they're handling this issue.
Also, while it has improved, the train hosts need to ensure that people don't stow heavy items overhead. I've seen crazy things put on overhead racks in many trains. It's really up to staff to take those items and put them into a luggage rack, or into the luggage van if there's no space available.
I don't fully agree with the boards.ie poster, but I do think the management of the luggage van is very sloppy.
Mark Gleeson
02-12-2007, 13:12
The doors into the luggage van are meant to be locked, I've never seen them open
They are a set of bi parting manually operated doors, its glass reinforced plastic with a metal frame, they will take a huge amount of punishment, they are not the single sheet no frame partition doors.
I've seen them open on many an occasion and I take CityGold fairly regularly. It seems the cleaning staff just leave them open as it's a lot of hassle to close them. As they're cleaning the train they bring the bags back into that area and leave them there.
I travelled to Cork and returned on the First Coach only ever once. Standard class has so much going for it than first anyway, I was greeted by the 1st class host and he walked me to my seat and took my bag and placed it in the rack overhead. Mind you I dont travel the service that often unlike you so I cant really complain. The Rosslare staff are very polite I have to say, They are the kind of guys who want to talk to you and all the rest... Mr.X on your other thread about your Grandmother I do agree with you, But you will not get anywhere if you dont ask for help. I often see a luggage Go-kart going to the Cork train and bringing down the luggage through the platform you could ask if you could hop on that I did three times I'm only 19 so... There's always room if your lucky that is..
There should have been IE staff at Cork and at Hueston to assistant your Grandmother on and off. The staff could have called Hueston and informed them and so on........
StephenM
02-12-2007, 23:37
Keith, fair play at writing to IE about that guy he obviously deserved it.
Thomas J Stamp
03-12-2007, 11:16
Read this thread on Green Issues on Boards.ie about a week ago, I didn't know it was this bad, particularly vis-a-vis international standards.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055188717
Thoughts?
He decided that he wanted to open the gate and get on. We all know here why they leave the CDE gates closed till last min (as they cant be quite sure its going to work) but come on, just deciding to open a closed gate and get on?
I've seen them open on many an occasion and I take CityGold fairly regularly. It seems the cleaning staff just leave them open as it's a lot of hassle to close them. As they're cleaning the train they bring the bags back into that area and leave them there.
Oh yeah, me too.
Keith, fair play at writing to IE about that guy he obviously deserved it.
Yep, glad he was sacked. If you hadnt complained he'd still be in that job assaulting other members of the public.
I dont doubt but for one minuite the experiance that our friend on boards had. It was nasty, the staff seemed universally rude for no reason that was apparent from the post. It's the simple things that keep customers coming back, even if they are hot headed, fustrated and prone to giving out you are supposedly trained to deal with that. Otherwise go get a different job.
I cant see why the gates for the platform were closed, on the timetable it says Gates will close 2mins prior to departure. But thinking here those gates were probably accidently closed by someone who slamed the gate behind them as they thought the gates are closed to early also...... But if he had stayed behind the gate and waited for a member of IE staff to come to him and told him it was okay to pass the gate.... If he did stay behind the gate and the train departed then what would be the situation?
Thomas J Stamp
03-12-2007, 14:29
I cant see why the gates for the platform were closed, on the timetable it says Gates will close 2mins prior to departure. But thinking here those gates were probably accidently closed by someone who slamed the gate behind them as they thought the gates are closed to early also...... But if he had stayed behind the gate and waited for a member of IE staff to come to him and told him it was okay to pass the gate.... If he did stay behind the gate and the train departed then what would be the situation?
What they mean is that the gates are closed (hence would be opened first) 2 mins before departure. The gates are usually closed at all times in Heuston untill the train is ready for boarding. Even though the train in this case was 11.00am I've seen the gates not open till after 11, because they have to do a door test on the CDE befaore passengers get on.
The train wouldnt have gone, the ticket man closes the gate and has to stay there untill the train has left to stop people running after it.
Queuing and boarding are now done from about half way up the side of platform 5 so you could see how someone who hasn't been to Heuston in a while might not find this new gate.
You see a lot of confused people looking at the closed original gate. The signage around there isn't that great.
(The original gate is sometimes used to board passengers who booked online.)
kevin
from travelling down to cork on the friday in 1st class. The luggage van/DVT is always open to people. The cleaner usually bases themselves there
Derek Wheeler
03-12-2007, 22:11
I read that link.
That dude is such a waster. What does he know about anything. The Cork train is brilliant. Its only fault is the "Ride quality":D Irish Rail have nailed it with this service. It is up there with the best in Europe if not the world. How dare this guy even contemplate writing such baloney. Yes, he's just a guy with a problem.
Actually I'm joking, but I doubt some posters on this thread would appreciate that.
What I just read is a typical example of what everyday, honest rail users experience and feel aggrieved about. You see, they don't waste away their lives getting "up to speed" on how railways work or in fact how IE work for that matter. The author of this piece had a problem and all of it is valid. Customers are allowed have problems. They are allowed get angry. They are allowed be "ignorant". Remember that the customer is always right. You start there and work forwards not backwards. But as is becoming very frequent on this board and very quick indeed, the reaction is one of redicule and snide "we know more" remarks. Its one big ad for "get stuffed rail users unless you know about trains". More IRN than anything I ever stood for.
Its pathetic. Reminds me of why I resigned. I wanted to fight the cause of rail users, not bury them under an insulting veil of "we know more than you do."
That guy didn't and won't contact RUI, because he may never have heard of it and if he did, one can only cringe at the reaction he'd have met with.
Hmmm, am caught between two opinions here. Kinda agree with the guy on some points and kinda think he has some form of rage disorder or serious stress issues. Anyhows, having read the responses from posters on this board I feel that most people have missed the point. What's important is not whether he was right, wrong or mad, but that he felt that the entire system was against him. Most posters on this board are experts in rail travel in Ireland and so know the system like the back of their hand, so when somebody begins to complain about, say, ticket reservations, they can't believe what they're hearing because they find it so straightforward.
Despite the fact that most RUI members often critise Irish Rail, when somebody with foreign experience comes along and blasts the rail network here it appears that RUI members go on the defense somewhat. I suppose it's a natural reaction to comments from a know-it-all and I admit that I sometimes react the same way. I've experienced this attitude in the past myself. Mark G, your comment that "His whole thesis about ticket sales and reservations is utter rubbish" is an example. I sometimes feel that you and others are so used to the Irish Rail system that you're caught in a vicious circle where you believe that the ticketing system is improving when in fact in cannot be improved because, in my opinion, it is fundamentally flawed. I too, as you probably know by now, live in France and use the rail/metro network regularly. When I come home and end up using the train/DART, I can honestly say that the experience is almost always disastrous, and I'm barely exaggerating when I say that. Being honest, I haven't used the train back home for a while now, so maybe things have changed. I'll try it this Christmas to see if I'm being over the top.
Remember, if any one of us was faced with a 19th century railway network (as IE were in the 80's) and then given a wad of cash (Celtic Tiger) what would we do. At the very least we'd upgrade the tracks, signalling, stations, and trains. Childsplay really.
If the rest of the world was moving to online ticketing what would we do. Simple, we'd at least follow suit.
What I'm saying is that despite all the recent improvements, Irish Rail's management haven't exactly being very forward thinking. The only mircales have being perfomed by the rail engineers who updated the system.
Anyhows, please heed Derek Wheeler's remarks. At the end of the day we all have to recognise that we sometimes have "know it all" attitudes, and I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes (always??) have this attitude. The guy who posted to boards should almost be made an honoury member of RUI because his comments embodies the feelings of many rail users in Ireland, be they Irish commuters or tourists, and on a number of issues he hits the nail on the head on all that is wrong with the system.
turnapin
04-12-2007, 11:00
What they mean is that the gates are closed (hence would be opened first) 2 mins before departure. The gates are usually closed at all times in Heuston untill the train is ready for boarding. Even though the train in this case was 11.00am I've seen the gates not open till after 11, because they have to do a door test on the CDE befaore passengers get on.
The train wouldnt have gone, the ticket man closes the gate and has to stay there untill the train has left to stop people running after it.
Thomas,
So the gates will close 2 minutes before departure actually means the gates will open 2 minutes before departure. This is as opposed to Connolly, where the gates will close means the gates will close.
People don't know that the gate will close means the gate will open. They also don't know that the train wouldn't have gone or that some a member of IE personnel has to stand at the gate before the train can go. I regularly use both Connolly and Heuston, but not the Cork train and I don't know these things. I don't want to know the minute inner workings of Irish Rail and I don't want to know gate and departure protocol. I just want to arrive at the station, buy my ticket and get on the train.
How can people defend this madness.
Patrick
Colm Donoghue
04-12-2007, 13:51
At most stations in Ireland, you buy your ticket and go onto the platform indicated to get your train.
This is how it works in Connolly Tara Pearse.
His train was on the platform indicated he passed through an unlocked gat to get onto his train.
he doesn't state if there was a sign telling customers to wait to get their ticket validated or not. If there wasn't, getting on the train seems perfectly rational and proper.
I don't care about arcane bull**** byelaws and obsure terms and conditions unavailable at the point you buy your ticket. Good customer service will tell you what you need to do to avail of the service properly and Politely ask you to do what is necessary to enable the company run a smooth service.
Ryanair tell you in black and white all their nasty gotcha's and terms and conditions with every ticket. they also make a profit. They also provide a better customer service than Irish rail. And Ryanair would not be high up any list of good customer service.
Being abusive to your paying customers is not good customer service, even if they are rude to you.
Expecting customers to know how a service always operates even if they've never used it before and berating them for this is not good customer service.
Expecting customers to know that the way it works in all their other stations doesn't work in one particular station, and berating them for it is poor customer service.
Good customer service isn't free, it takes an effort from the company to introduce it.
Good manners and politeness are free however.
What turnapin said is the way it should be.
I don't want to know the minute inner workings of Irish Rail and I don't want to know gate and departure protocol. I just want to arrive at the station, buy my ticket and get on the train.
Thomas,
So the gates will close 2 minutes before departure actually means the gates will open 2 minutes before departure. This is as opposed to Connolly, where the gates will close means the gates will close.
People don't know that the gate will close means the gate will open. They also don't know that the train wouldn't have gone or that some a member of IE personnel has to stand at the gate before the train can go. I regularly use both Connolly and Heuston, but not the Cork train and I don't know these things. I don't want to know the minute inner workings of Irish Rail and I don't want to know gate and departure protocol. I just want to arrive at the station, buy my ticket and get on the train.
How can people defend this madness.
Patrick
>>> Post of the Year <<<
Thomas J Stamp
05-12-2007, 10:36
>>> Post of the Year <<<
Yeah?
Hold on a second here. This is the point I'm making:
I made my way to the entrance to the platform, over which the matrix platform describer display sign said “Cork 11.00” to find the gate to the platform closed, eight minutes before the train was due to depart.
Got it? It was closed. Dosnt matter if he knows why its closed or not. It's bloody closed. He decided to open it and wander on. Correct attitude of the IE staff would be to politly tell him to go back the train isnt ready for boarding yet and be polite and mannerly at all times to him - after all he is a customer.
I don't want to know gate and departure protocol. I just want to arrive at the station, buy my ticket and get on the train.
Well you cant at Heuston. Tough titty. I want to go to Dublin Airport, buy my ticket and get on a plane without all this security and boarding pass bull****. Tough titty on me though.
There are two things here. Firstly, everyone of the staff he met were rude, arrogant and nasty. That is the fault of IE. Secondly, he was left bewildered by the gate practices of IE - that is also the fault of IE. There should have been someone at the gate, there wasnt. There usually isnt untill the time to check tickets comes around.
Give you an example: Back in October myself and Mark G were in the middle of the queue for the train to Limerick, maybe 200 ahead of us, maybe more behind us, we were past the ATM we were so far back. The train was due to leave in 5 mins and no ticket checker had arrived to open the gate and start checking. Eventually with thee mins to spare he turned up. Sometimes he'll be there 20 mins beforehand today he was late. Now, leaving aside me and MarkG knowing what was going on, there were maybe 400 people there who didnt. Did they decide to open the gate and legg it onto the train?
I'm no defender of IE, far from it. This guy was wrong to go through the gate, simple as. It dosnt distract from the absolute dogs dinner of a servie he got from the staff he encountered though. They are two seperate issues.
Got it? It was closed. Dosnt matter if he knows why its closed or not. It's bloody closed. He decided to open it and wander on. Correct attitude of the IE staff would be to politly tell him to go back the train isnt ready for boarding yet and be polite and mannerly at all times to him - after all he is a customer.
I don't think it's quite as simple as that. If I arrived at Heuston less than ten minutes before departure, saw my train sitting on the platform, no sign of anyone queuing and no staff member to tell me what to do, I'd assume I was late and dash for the train. Even if the gate was closed, how is a new customer supposed to know what that means, maybe they self close to avoid swinging around, maybe the last person through closed it by accident, there are numerous valid reasons for going through.
The guy did what normal people would do, Irish Rail are _entirely_ at fault here. Signage, staff, physically locking the gate - there are so many things they could have done but didn't. Most people would be embarrassed and annoyed at being given out to which is hardly a recipe for encouraging repeat custom.
Agreed - if I turned up at a platform with minutes to go before my train was due to leave and all that was between me and the train was a gate I would open the gate in the absense of a staff member or sign specifically telling me that this was not to be done. The alternative is to stand there like someone with no intuition, or no ability to apply logic to the situation they find themselves in and watch the train depart after standing behind the gate for a few minutes.
I don't know whether there is signage in place indicating that the gate should only be opened by authorised people but in the absense of the signage I would proceed to my train.
z
"Did they decide to open the gate and legg it onto the train?" - no, but you can bet there were a lot of anxious people all through that queue. Those at the front worrying that somehow they had not noticed that IE had moved the queue for this train (or even the entire train) to the adjacent platform and nobody had told them. Those in the middle (out of clear sight of the train) wondering if they were in the wrong queue entirely. Those at the back of the queue wondering all of the above and also whether if/when the queue eventually got moving they would be get to the ticket checker before the train was due to leave.
z
Thomas J Stamp
05-12-2007, 11:07
The only hole in your arguments is that that is what happens all the time in Heuston and you dont see people unlocking gates and running up platforms.
there are numerous valid reasons for going through.
There arent actually. Leaving aside anything I know, gates are locked for a reason. To stop you from going through. This gate was bolted.
When the gate is closed its closed by a bolt being put into a hole in the side supports.
I agree on signage, good idea, should be on the gate.
Of course, the elephant in the room here is that it may not have been the 11.00 train at all. I once watched the 16.00 on a sunday break down with everyone on it and depart after the 17.00..................
anyway, this is starting to go round in circles, lets get back to why we're here: the appaling staff on the CDE.
No, there is a point to be made here I think. I and a lot of other people assume that a closed gate means sweet FA in Heuston since there is no sign, whether electronic or otherwise that something may happen.
We assume just like the rest of Irish life, nobody has bothered to open the gate; therefore no penalty for lashing for it.
Mark Gleeson
05-12-2007, 12:28
No, there is a point to be made here I think. I and a lot of other people assume that a closed gate means sweet FA in Heuston since there is no sign, whether electronic or otherwise that something may happen.
We assume just like the rest of Irish life, nobody has bothered to open the gate; therefore no penalty for lashing for it.
You wouldn't do it at an airport would you??
If the gate is closed, its closed, wait and form a queue, far too often the train in the platform is not the one you are looking for, imagine this guy boarded and the train vanished off to Inchicore. Equally the ticket checker may have been required to assist a passenger to board the train and had to close the gate. The gate exists to prevent passengers from boarding a train when they shouldn't, that is perfectly reasonable
If everyone started to open the locked gates in Heuston just because they felt like it it would cause all out chaos
You are required to have your ticket validated/stamped etc if there is a gate, again you will find this is common across the rest of Europe where you must get the ticket punched or stamped before boarding and failure to do so will result in trouble. Now its inconsistent but still
The host was correct to refuse access as the ticket wasn't stamped when it should be, however his attitude in dealing with the issue was way out of line
Ticket checks on the Cork line are conducted normally after Limerick Junction Cork bound and after Thurles Dublin bound to catch anyone who boarded since Dublin or Cork and also to nab anyone travelling beyond their destination, thats not unreasonable
A fair point - I wouldn't do it at an airport. Correct.
Why not ? because I trust the Airport and airline management to open it and close it as it is supposed to be done. In addition I have departure boards above every gate telling me if its boarding, plus plenty of PAs from the announcer telling me to get a move on.
The same does not apply to IE.
You wouldn't do it at an airport would you??
In an airport, you'd find the door physically locked in a way that passengers can't open. This alone tells you that you're not supposed to pass. You'd also find a sign stating the flight number and a status such as 'Not boarding', 'boarding now' or 'gate closed'. You'd also find at least one staff member beside the gate to help passengers. None of those things are true in Heuston in my experience and people who are afraid of missing their train will make their way to it. The only way to stop this is through communication, something IE are inept at. Maybe you're right and the guy was in the wrong but he's a) a customer and b) proof that the system isn't clear for customers.
Thomas J Stamp
05-12-2007, 13:10
Maybe you're right and the guy was in the wrong but he's a) a customer and b) proof that the system isn't clear for customers.
yep, i'd agree 100% with that.
we know that there can be breakdowns in communication in Heuston. In fact, changing the Dox Matrix thing above a gate to "Now boarding" as opposed to "on time" is a very excellent idea.
turnapin
05-12-2007, 15:49
I find the locked gate issue to be a bit of a red herring. People only go through locked gates as a last resort. In this case it appears to be a train that’s due to depart in eight minutes, a locked gate and no information(though presumably the display said On Time, which would compound matters). If there’s a queue you don’t go through. If the gates staffed, you don’t go through. If there’s neither you’re in a difficult position, where you could either catch the train or feel like an idiot in eight minutes time.
The real issue is that IE are terrible at providing information to passengers. They are an absolute disaster at providing it on a consistent basis across the network and just to compound matters, each line and station appears to have it's own peculiarities of operation which are largely undocumented and may be interpreted differently by different employees.
I love the idea of “Now Boarding” at the gate. In truth I’m sure it would just be a matter of time before someone comes up to an unattended locked gate with a train on the platform and “Now Boarding” on the display.
I've been on a few railways around Europe and the U.S. and I've never seen anything like that.
Most places, including the Sligo line out of Connolly, it's really very simple, you buy your ticked and show up at the platform. If the train is ready, the doors are open, you board, and there's usually well announced with clear station announcements, destination boards that work etc. Simple as that. If it's not ready, the doors are closed and you don't get on. Simple.
As for this valiadation business - again wtf?
This individual didn't know enough about the unusual and second-guessing situation that exists on some long distance services - all he wanted was a simple, relaxing journey to Cork. Nothing more, nothing less.
He apparently came to Heuston not that well informed, found a lack of customer information, an unstaffed gate that was closed (not locked?) and saw that his train was due to leave in 8 minutes.
What's more, he went out of his way to give IE a chance when he could have (and most likely will from now on) get a connecting flight to Cork.
It is reasonable to assume that a train scheduled to leave in 8 minutes is now boarding - unless you're explicitly told otherwise. Using the airport example, when was the last time a plane boarded 2 minutes before it took off? Not too often, I'd say.
IE either needs simplify boarding procedures dramatically, or make it very clear to all users - including those not familiar with it - the exact procedures to be followed.
I can certainly identify with his problem with the ticket inspections on the train and again, this is a major failure by IE. Mark may be quick to defend IEs onboard ticket checks but the way they do it simply isn't best practice. The best practice I've ever seen is on the MTA railroads out of New York City. There, the conductor uses punched slips of card paper on seat headrests to see who's entitled to travel where. If you're at a seat that doesn't have a card, the conductor asks for your ticket and will either punch your ticket (if it's valid for more trips) take it if it's only good for that journey, or sell you a ticket at a serious premium if you don't have one.
Once that's done they punch a small card, slide it into the headrest (which was designed for that purpose) and they don't bother you again unless they have a good reason. It's simple and it works.
Particularly in 1st class where someone pays a serious premium for comfort and convenience, some simple way of tracking passengers without bothering them should not be beyond the realms of possibility.
None of what goes on in IE is defensible because all of it can be done much better.
Colm Donoghue
05-12-2007, 20:52
You wouldn't do it at an airport would you??
If the gate is closed, its closed, wait and form a queue, far too often the train in the platform is not the one you are looking for, imagine this guy boarded and the train vanished off to Inchicore. Equally the ticket checker may have been required to assist a passenger to board the train and had to close the gate. The gate exists to prevent passengers from boarding a train when they shouldn't, that is perfectly reasonable
This procedure occurs only in Heuston. In Connolly, Drogheda, Rush and Lusk, Donabate, Westport, Balbriggan, Arklow, Kilcoole, Dun Laoighaire you buy your ticket and go onto the platform to board or wait for your train.
All Aer Rianta's Airports follow the same proceedure. One of Irish Rail's stations follows a procedure different to most of the rest. This is different to the majority of train systems used abroad too. This difference is not communicated clearly to customers.
If everyone started to open the locked gates in Heuston just because they felt like it it would cause all out chaos
You are required to have your ticket validated/stamped etc if there is a gate, again you will find this is common across the rest of Europe where you must get the ticket punched or stamped before boarding and failure to do so will result in trouble. Now its inconsistent but still
Locked or closed? It is fairly reasonable to assume any unlocked door or gate in any area open to the public is going to be opened and passed through unless clear communications direct people not to.
Irish rail should lock gates if they don't want people to open them.
If you board at many stations at different times of the day you will pass a gate and no one will stamp your ticket. Don't come back and say well the rules are different if there's no one there or such. If Irish Rail can't get their act together simply and consistently that is not our fault or the fault of a first and last time customer of theirs.
The host was correct to refuse access as the ticket wasn't stamped when it should be, however his attitude in dealing with the issue was way out of line
Ticket checks on the Cork line are conducted normally after Limerick Junction Cork bound and after Thurles Dublin bound to catch anyone who boarded since Dublin or Cork and also to nab anyone travelling beyond their destination, thats not unreasonable
A better attitude would be to stamp the customer's ticket, and inform the customer of the proper procedure for the next time the customer "lets the train take the strain"
Despite the fact that most RUI members often critise Irish Rail, when somebody with foreign experience comes along and blasts the rail network here it appears that RUI members go on the defense somewhat.
When I come home and end up using the train/DART, I can honestly say that the experience is almost always disastrous, and I'm barely exaggerating when I say that.
Remember, if any one of us was faced with a 19th century railway network (as IE were in the 80's) and then given a wad of cash (Celtic Tiger) what would we do. At the very least we'd upgrade the tracks, signalling, stations, and trains. Childsplay really.
He hits the nail on the head on all that is wrong with the system.
I like your post, Obviously we are going to defend the Irish Rail Network because we use it and mainly we dont actually know what speed is[ ha ha ]
Compared to the TGV if you use it our rail network is last century trains.
About the 19th Century stuff well what can I say except God Bless Iarnrod Eireann for trying.
The system has its flaws but compared to other trains in the world its OnBoard Information is reasonability good and percise. (Example) Ladies and Gentlemen, Iarnrod Eireann welcomes you onboard. This is the nine hundred (09:00) hours train from Dublin Hueston to Cork serving Limerick Jnct, Charleville, Mallow and Cork. Your attention is drawn to the safey and evacuation notices. Thank you for your attention, Have a pleasant and comforable journey. Can I ask what is the french announcements but translated into English?..........
The system has its flaws but compared to other trains in the world its OnBoard Information is reasonability good and percise. (Example) Ladies and Gentlemen, Iarnrod Eireann welcomes you onboard. This is the nine hundred (09:00) hours train from Dublin Hueston to Cork serving Limerick Jnct, Charleville, Mallow and Cork. Your attention is drawn to the safey and evacuation notices. Thank you for your attention, Have a pleasant and comforable journey.
That does sound good indeed, although I almost always take the Dublin-Galway train. I'll really make an effort to check out the service this Christmas. One of the advantages of living away from home is that the changes really stand out when you come back.
Can I ask what is the french announcements but translated into English?..........
Sure. Here's an example
"Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome aboard the Corail Intercité train to Tours. This train will serve Les Aubrais, Orléans, Meung-sur-Loire, Blois, St. Pierre des Corps and Tours its terminus. We inform passengers that their ticket must be validated. Those who have not completed this formality, please make yourself known to the inspector before any checks are made."
Then the usual:
"The train is about to depart, please keep clear of the doors, the train is departing."
And then the "Ladies and Gentlemen..." part above is repeated once the train departs.
None of this is automatic, it is always the ticket inspector who talks over the speakers.
With regards the whole issue of locked gates (at terminus stations), there are none in France. All platforms are open and people are only aware of which train is theirs once the platform number is indicated on the main display board. This is meant to happen 20 minutes before departure. It's quite a site to watch in, say, Montparnasse station when the platform number for a packed (up to 1090 passengers in Duplex TGV's) TGV is displayed only 5 or 10 minutes before departure, although the compulsory reservation on TGV's prevents total chaos. Passengers self-validate their tickets in machines to the sides of the platform entrance. On some rare occasions (e.g. busy holiday periods) your ticket will be checked before boarding.
Yes - exactly .... Paddington in London is the same for departure boards ...
everyone is watching the board until the platform number goes up and signalled ready for boarding.
Nobody goes near a train since they have no idea which train it is...
Did this guy manage to miss the huge (1m x 1m) sign beside platform 5 saying "Cork Queue Here":D
No excuse for going in the normal platform 5 gate, really.
packetswitch
08-12-2007, 12:04
I dunno. I got the train to Cork on Thursday evening and at least 20 people ended up on the wrong side (i.e. through what looks like it should be the platform gate but is no longer used, cause of the Cork Queue Here sign (which is to the side of the platform). A number of them (from what I could see) opened the gate (some just tailgated!). The train staff chased them all off at the various stages of entry. So this problem is far from a once-off. In particular, the fact that the dot matrix sign above the expected entrance to platform 5 indicates that the Cork train goes from there is a problem. I understand the desire to have a separate queue (although I can't yet understand why we have to queue in the first place, I can get a train at most London terminals without this ridiculous thing of standing for 15 minutes in a queue to enter a platform), but the signs are at least confusing (in particular to non-everyday users) and that should be addressed.
Aha, one of my pet hates - signs that don't quite say what they mean.
Cork Queue Here - don't they mean "Queue here for trains to Cork" ? If it is a statement then the sign is only correct when a queue has actually formed there.
You might say I'm being finicky and that someone should know what the sign means . . . is this the same person that is supposed to know that even though the departure board says the train is departing from platform 5 you don't actually go through the gate that has the platform display sign above it and that gives access to platform 5 ?
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Thomas Ralph
09-12-2007, 17:54
This procedure occurs only in Heuston. In Connolly, Drogheda, Rush and Lusk, Donabate, Westport, Balbriggan, Arklow, Kilcoole, Dun Laoighaire you buy your ticket and go onto the platform to board or wait for your train.
You'll find that there are several other stations which have ticket checks before people enter the platform and people generally aren't let onto an empty platform, for example Limerick (platforms 1 and 2), Waterford, Galway, and Cork. It also happens some of the time at Cobh. Seems to be exclusive to terminal stations.
CIE companies in general have absolutely no concept of what proper signage is.
It's not too long ago that you could be faced with 4 orange MK3 trains in Heuston with no signage on them and no signs overhead! In the good old days I accidently boarded the Galway and Waterford trains by accident!!
I often wonder if they ever walk through any of the 'systems' they expect their customers to navigate.
The Cork Queue sign in Dublin Heuston is just idiotic. I don't understand it.
Boarding should work as follows:
Announcement that the train is now boarding on platform X
Ask for any passengers with special needs to come forward for priority boarding.
Get them on board.
Call the 1st class and reserved standard class ticket holders.
THEN call everyone else.
It's nuts expecting people to pay a premium for a first class /citygold ticket and then providing no clear priority boarding. Reservation should give you that too. It's pointless without it.
There should be staff around to manage the queue etc too.
There's also absolutely no consistancy.
Sometimes they help reserved passengers to their coach, sometimes they don't.
Sometimes there's food, sometimes their isn't...
The list is endless.
It's not about resources it's about poor management of a now well resourced service!
Other railways and airlines have been getting this stuff right for >100 years!!!
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