Comments from abroad

[Garrett]

Hi all,

As someone living in France and using public transport everyday I like to consider that I might be able to suggest some ideas for public transport in Ireland. I'm a regular vistor to Platform 11 and posted some comments on the old board but unfortunately I've never went the whole distance to actually send a cheque and become a full member - I will someday, honest :-p
I'm not a very frequent user of rail transport in Ireland but I've used it enough to understand and sympathise with Platform 11's criticisms of it. I have a few ideas/questions/remarks to make but I'm not sure to what extent Platform 11 has already discussed them. Nor am I sure that they'll recieve a good response from members - any response, good or bad is welcomed.
(Most of the comments deal with the thorny issue of ticketing)
1. Is it possible to get train/dart tickets in places other than train/dart stations? Are there any ticket machines in universities for example? Technically it should be quite easy to implement.
2. Are one-way tickets valid in both directions? My experience is that this is not the case on the Dart.
3. Why are some tickets (e.g. Dart) only valid on the same day of purchase. I once bought a one-way ticket from a Dart ticket machine hoping to be able to use it the next day but was then surprised to see it was already stamped for use only on the day of purchase! After some smart remarks from a CIE staff member, he finally changed my ticket.
4. As far as I know, Iarnrod Eireann still offers to sell tickets to people on a train who don't have a ticket! (or has this changed). The French (SNCF) method is somewhat cruel but I agree with it: If you don't have a ticket you must contact a ticket inspector who will then sell you a ticket but at €5 or €10 more than the normal price. If you don't bother contacting a ticket inspector then you must pay a fine and of course buy a valid ticket.
5. Is it possible for Iarnrod Eireann to connect trains together, e.g. join the Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Limerick trains which can then separate at Portarlington for example? This is common practice in France.

[Mark Gleeson]

Ticketing is a big mess but we have uncovered some secrets

1) You can buy a ticket for any journey of any type from any IE booking office (so you could buy a DART ticket in Cork for instance. There are two travel centres one in Dublin and one in Cork which aren't in railway stations.

You can book online and collect your tickets at the station

Some travel agents can issue tickets mainly on first class services

2) A ticket is valid only from the start station shown to the destination, a return is valid for one outbound journey and one one return not two in the same direction. That is the definition of a single and return ticket however and its a very big point to note no break of journey is allowed except

If you are making a intercity journey you can get off and get on again, it is legal to board Dublin get off Kildare go shopping etc and reboard and continue to Cork for example

3) Single tickets are valid on the date printed normally the one of issue, you can buy a ticket dated up to 3 months in advance if you wish. Suburban tickets are valid printed date only (that includes the time after midnight) Intercity tickets are valid on a day return, 3 day, 5 day, month etc the price varying

4) Since many stations can be unstaffed fares may be collected on board however a much heavier revenue protection policy has taken effect in Dublin recently and exit validation is about to arrive. If you are caught without a ticket or with an invalid ticket you will be in most cases issued with a fixed penalty (€50?) failure to pay results in a court summons. The staff now carry something known as Toms Directory which lists the owners of all property in the state which catches people who give false addresses

5) Currently the bulk of services are old fashioned locomotive hauled sets which can't spilt. New rolling stock on order can support this but it is unknown if it will be done. The safety people are not fans of coupling trains with people aboard. Athlone will be the place where it will happen if it does

Oh yeah we have paypal now......

[James Shields]

1. Is it possible to get train/dart tickets in places other than train/dart stations? Are there any ticket machines in universities for example? Technically it should be quite easy to implement.

Not ticket machines per say, but a lot of newsagents are resellers of multi-journey and weekly/monthly tickets. I think this is used more for Bus/Luas than DART/Rail tickets. I agree ticket machines would be easy to implement, especially if a single machine could be programmed to dispense all types of Bus, Luas and Rail tickets.

2. Are one-way tickets valid in both directions? My experience is that this is not the case on the Dart.

Generally, no. Luas tickets would be within the same zone, but it's probably not that often you'd make a single zone journey.

3. Why are some tickets (e.g. Dart) only valid on the same day of purchase. I once bought a one-way ticket from a Dart ticket machine hoping to be able to use it the next day but was then surprised to see it was already stamped for use only on the day of purchase! After some smart remarks from a CIE staff member, he finally changed my ticket.

Daft I know. There are certainly times when you're running for a train that the last thing you want to do is stop and fumble for change with a ticket machine. I can see, however, if the machines dispensed "open" tickets, people would be riding the trains for weeks on a single ticket. If you had a seperate "validaror" that stamped the date on the ticket and boarding a train with an unvalidated ticket carried a fine, it might work.

4. As far as I know, Iarnrod Eireann still offers to sell tickets to people on a train who don't have a ticket! (or has this changed). The French (SNCF) method is somewhat cruel but I agree with it: If you don't have a ticket you must contact a ticket inspector who will then sell you a ticket but at €5 or €10 more than the normal price. If you don't bother contacting a ticket inspector then you must pay a fine and of course buy a valid ticket.

I agree with the logic here. Unfortunately there are still too many unmanned or semi-manned stations. Until all stations (at least within the DART/Suburban network) are manned or have ticket machines available, this isn't really going to be a runner.

5. Is it possible for Iarnrod Eireann to connect trains together, e.g. join the Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Limerick trains which can then separate at Portarlington for example? This is common practice in France.

Probably not with current stock, but this might be a runner once the IC DMUs come in the next two years.

[Mark Gleeson]

The ticketing system does allow the issuing of non dated tickets and I had one once

When the ticket is inserted into the turnstile it is printed with the date and is then locked to only work on that date. It could be handy to have a pack of pre paid singles and returns but the lack of a zonal system means getting the ticket you want from your station to another defeats the purpose as you would have to queue up

There was mass fare evasion on 10 journey tickets which first led to there validility being reduced to 14 days and then being withdrawn people avoided validating the tickets and got several trips for free. Thats one of the reaons why tickets are date specific and why a validate on first use ticket doesn't exist

There is a day rambler bus/rail ticket which if bought from a ticket agent becomes valid when its first inserted into a validator, bought from a station it is valid only on that date but through a quirk in the system it will work any day but since the ticket in that case is clearly printed with a valid date you would be done for fare evasion
http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/integrated_ticketing/

[PaulM]

Hi Garrett and welcome to the board. Ticketing is something I have a big problem with.

There is a serious need for proper integrated tickets but the power that be can't seem to grasp it is really very simple. You probably did the right thing moving to a place where they understand public transport.

As Mark said, it is possible to buy tickets in advance but it is by no means an easy task. Booking online etc. is just extra hassle. How it should work, IMO, a ticket bought does not have a date on it, if it really must (for some reason) it should be valid for the remainder of that year, this prevents people cheating the annual 5c fare rise :rolleyes: once the ticket is used it it is used. Returns should have a life longer than one day, maybe a week or atleast ones bought on a Saturday should be valid on Sunday.

Also, Garrett has now paid the €10. Thanks again Garrett. :)

[sean]

A decent flipping ticketing system would be so bloody easy if the powers that be got their heads out of their rear ends for 2 minutes.

Or maybe the Americans, Brits and Germans just make "Integrated Transport" look easy?

The operation, which, in my experience, makes the best comparison to Irish Rail long-distance services is that are the MTA railroads (Metro North and Long Island Railroads) ticketing is much more transparent and flexible than IEs, as in you can look at the schedule and find the complete fare structure outlined quite clearly. You can buy a ticket from the TVMs anywhere on the system, or from a ticket office, either way, the ticket is valid for 3 months in either direction, so long as the correct fare is paid for the peak/off peak train. It just works, beautifully.

Then an intrepid traveller may go to Germany, (especially Berlin), where the transport systems really are integrated and are a joy to use. Ticketing is also very flexible and transparent, you can buy a ticket for short hop, (3 stops) single, day pass, weekly and so on for specified zones. The tickets work on everything, buses, trams, S & U Bahn ...

... and BVG tickets aren't even all that hi-tech, in fact, they're just bits of paper - not even a mag. stripe. Also BVG TVMs are multi-lingual, with German, English, etc - y'know languages people actually USE :eek: rather than dead ones just kept around for decoration.

Yes, my friends, we could learn a lot from our Eurpoean friends, but the powers that be here would rather spend their time scraping "COMMUTER" Logos off Tesco-Value-Range trains, opening tram systems with dodgy track, counting the coin-boxes from the buses, charging more for prepaid fares (because we really want everyone queueing up for 10 minutes to pay coins to the driver at every bloody stop), calling smart cards "Integration," having schedule information in Gaelic only, Inter-agency rivalry between DB, IR and the RPA, and ... oh yeah ... building LOTS AND LOTS of roads.

[kilman]

I was on a commuter train to Athlone earlier this week and a guy got on the train at Newbridge heading for Kildare.
The ticket inspector asked him for his ticket and the guy told him he had none. Then he told him that a single would be 4.50 and they guy told him he had no money.There was a friend of his that paid the fare but if he was on his own what would have happened??

[Mark Gleeson]

Kicked off, and fined 50 euro

[PaulM]

The ticket inspector asked him for his ticket and the guy told him he had none. Then he told him that a single would be 4.50 and they guy told him he had no money.

That should not be allowed. Police should have been waiting at the next station IMO. You don't go in to a resteraunt, order food, eat it and then tell them you have no money. Police may sound over the top but that guy had broken the law. The only way to deal with this sort of stuff is to crack down on it.

[Mark Gleeson]

It is absolutely no problem get a ticket for a date in the future you simply ask it works, I've used that facility numerous times never had a problem.

Revenue protection is a touchy subject in Newbridge and Kildare as up until very recently there was no exit ticket check, anyone who uses Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Dun Laoghaire and Bray has had that for decades. The second IE tried it one morning (at the request of an Garda Siochana it appears) there where howls of protest, a little OTT as I've been through heavy handed inspection numerous times and was very happy to see numerous people being pulled aside. There was a time you could board a local Kildare train without a ticket at Heuston as the train has a conductor thats now been outlawed

There is a balance to be had, and certain routes will see a much increased revenue protection regime this has a side benefit of reducing anti social behaviour as an increased staff presence puts trouble markers off. Waiting on the gardai is a fairly common reason for a DART delay, it seems to take an age to get a garda on site to remove someone

[James Shields]

The level of ticket checking is so pathetic at the moment that it would not surprise me if a significant portion of passengers are travelling without tickets. I recently overheard someone who'd just come through the ticket check at Connolly commenting "oops, that's my library card" to a mate (I assume he did have a ticket from his expression of surprise). In many stations it's very easy to get on without a ticket, and in most there is little or no checking on exit, or where there is it is totally unavble to cope with the volumes when it's busy.

Even if you do get stopped, most of the time all you have to do is pay the fare you should have paid when you got on. The €50 penalty is so unlikely to actually be charged that it's probably almost worth the risk.

What really needs to happen is for it to be illegal to board a train without a valid ticket. Unfortunately, that isn't really fair until it is possible to buy a ticket at every station.

It will be interesting to see what happens when exit validation machines come in. I can't wait to see how they cope with the crowds at Connolly and Pearse.

[PaulM]

It is absolutely no problem get a ticket for a date in the future you simply ask it works, I've used that facility numerous times never had a problem.

How is that easier then buying a ticket that doesn't have to be used on the same day?

I know it is only a small thing but anything that makes the service more user friendly should be done.

You have to realise Mark, you know a lot more about IE than the average person, that includes their ticketing staff. I have seen people argue with IE staff over buying a ticket for a different date. Many people will assume you can't get one if that is what IE tell them.

[Mark Gleeson]

Can I get a return to x for tomorrow please, next Monday etc , thats it no need to know anything technical. The only delay encountered is a double check on what date next Monday is

I know plently of people who do it and I have seen many do it, its no trouble

[PaulM]

Can I get a return to x for tomorrow please, next Monday etc , thats it no need to know anything technical. The only delay encountered is a double check on what date next Monday is

I know plently of people who do it and I have seen many do it, its no trouble

And I have seen people be told that they can't myself included.

Either way, A ticket valid until it is needed is easier than specifying a date, not dropping something is easier than picking it up. :)

Ordering a ticket in advance shouldn't problem to a normal person but IE staff tend to not to like doing this, extra buttons to press etc.