[article] €2bn rail link to go ahead despite working 'ghost line'

[weehamster]

www.independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/83642bn-rail-link-to-go-ahead-despite-working-ghost-line-existing-1230026.html)

€2bn rail link to go ahead despite working 'ghost line' existing Victorian line could be used to service some of the capital's most densely populated areas
Tools By Tom Prendeville

A new underground Dart service linking Heuston Station to the Docklands which is scheduled to cost €2bn is set to go ahead -- despite the fact the two destinations are already linked by a fully functioning but little used railway known as "The Ghost Line". The existing high speed railway travels from Heuston through the Phoenix Park tunnel before surfacing again and travelling through Cabra, Phibsboro, Drumcondra and onto Connolly Station and on to the Docklands.

The neglected rail link is fully functioning and occasionally carries freight and is used to shunt locomotives between Dublin's two main railway stations.

Now a rail user lobby group have questioned the vast amount of money which is earmarked for a new tunnel under the city when the old Victorian railway line could be used to service some of the city's most densely populated areas.

"They are wasting an incredible asset and instead ploughing vast sums of money into a new inter-connector tunnel," said Derek Wheeler of Rail Users Ireland. "The rail lines have been there for over one hundred years and have carried passenger trains in the past and are begging to be used again. It is a rapid rail service that can be up and running within a year. The whole system is just about ready to go."

In the past, the Phoenix Park tunnel was portrayed as an unsuitable, crumbling and leaky vestige of Victorian engineering. But in reality the tunnel was engineered to the highest standards and is vast and cavernous. Approximately 757 yards in length, it was built to accommodate two wide gauge 9 foot 10 inch trains travelling in either direction.

"Transit time to either Connolly or the North Wall from Heuston would be about 10 to 12 minutes and the Phoenix Park route would have the benefit of servicing a lot of densely populated areas," said Wheeler.

"Currently, the lines through the Phoenix Park are fully signalled to passenger standards, with signal spacing adequate to support trains at approximately five minute intervals in both directions." However, Iarnrod Eireann insists that the Phoenix Park route is a non runner and would only add to the congestion at Connolly Station:

"The Phoenix Park tunnel is currently used for freight services and special train services, particularly during the GAA season," said spokesperson, Barry Kenny. "Using the park tunnel would result in cancellations of other services. Connolly station is at full capacity at peak times, and using the park tunnel in this way would not generate any additional commuter capacity in the greater Dublin area. Kildare services could not serve Heuston without an additional platform and track work being provided there, and could not serve docklands without track modifications at a multi-million euro cost."

Three years ago, Iarnrod Eireann had an entirely different view. On February 25 2004, Joe Maher, the then chief executive of the company told the Dail Transport Committee: "We certainly intend to use the park tunnel in the short-term to bring trains from the Kildare/Newbridge area into Spencer Dock because there is demand for that."

Meanwhile, Transport 21's proposed inter-connector tunnel which would extend the Dart service to Heuston and onwards to Park West, Adamstown and Hazelhatch is being hailed as a panacea to all the city's public transport needs. In 2003, it was estimated that the new inter-connector would cost €1.3bn. However, the cost of major infrastructure projects have a history of spiralling out of control, and some critics have suggested that the new tunnel could eventually end up costing €2bn.

Emm... can somebody please explain to me what is this :confused:

Now I know all about the PPT or the 'The Ghost Line' (never heard of that term before) and RUI/P11 campaign (one of the first) to use this for the Commuter service and I this my full support.

However, going by this report, it looks like to me that RUI are (in some way) Anti-Interconnector, that it shouldn't be built and that the PPT should be used instead.

This is the first time the figure of €2b has popped up since a certain former Fine Gale spokesperson for transportation used it in a few letters she sent to the Irish Times.

Please tell me that this is just another case of bad Indo reporting. :eek:

[Mark Gleeson]

1. Policy has has been that the Park Tunnel should be used

2. Irish Rail gave a undertaking before a Dail committee to use it

3. They lied and didn't follow through

4. The longer we wait the higher the price

Its very clearly stated http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/phoenix_tunnel/

[Mark Hennessy]

I think the tone of the article implies that we do not need the Interconnector which is certainly not the case.

[KSW]

I would love to see the ghost line being used. Connolly-Newbridge/Kildare after all Connolly station is alot closer to the city center... You could have the odd service from Galway or Cork etc arriving in at Connolly's platfrom 2,3 or 4 and departing Connolly. The inter-connector we need there's no fighting on that. All the city center stations should be linked up.

[Mark Gleeson]

The issue at hand is the interconnector is either likely to be cancelled due to cash running out in T21 or that is will arrive sometime after 2015. Thats 8 years away and things are getting really bad now we need some action http://www.railusers.ie/transport21

All T21 costs are presented as 2004 prices but our investigation shows that cost inflation is included in the overal budget http://www.railusers.ie/transport21/costs.php

We need to make the best use of the resources to hand and its a crazy situtation to have a two track passenger line in Dublin city lying idle. http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/phoenix_tunnel/

Together with our collegues in the DART for Lucan we have shown that for passengers arriving in Heuston even with 40m trams and more buses there is nowhere near the capacity to move people into the city as the Kildare route project hits. That has been noted by the public inquiry and a study commissioned.

If 2 trains per hour operated to Docklands (not Connolly) from the Kildare line that would make a huge difference, also serve Drumcondra, Docklands serves the IFSC and is only 15 minute walk to Merrion Square, back of TCD and so on places where people want to go. IE promised both verbally and in writing and where funded, even gave a date for the service to start

Barry Kenny of course has his stuck record line of no capacity in Connolly, none in needed, though funny he says it can't take any more so what of the 1 extra inbound and 1 extra out in the morning rush from Jan 20 2008?

We believe that one platform in Docklands could be connected to the Drumcondra line though the purchase of a small plot of land off Ossery Rd. Cobh operates with a single platform and no current Dockland services use the second platform so there is no practical problem. IE of course cite the need to rebuild Glasnevin Junction, they don't and if they had done the job right we wouldn't be here

[ofjames]

The issue at hand is the interconnector is either likely to be cancelled due to cash running out in T21 or that is will arrive sometime after 2015. Thats 8 years away and things are getting really bad now we need some action http://www.railusers.ie/transport21

Is there any validity in the notion that IE's reluctance to use the PPT for regular commuter services is founded on the fear that doing so would result in politicians killing of the interconnector??

Also, on the subject of killing off the interconnector, I'd like to ask Mark G just how sceptical he IS that this project will actually proceed under T21???

[Prof_Vanderjuice]

Is there any validity in the notion that IE's reluctance to use the PPT for regular commuter services is founded on the fear that doing so would result in politicians killing of the interconnector??

I don't think IÉ can really maintain that position in the context of their Broadstone proposal. (BTW, I agree with what weehamster and Mark Hennessy said re the tone of the article.)

[Mark Gleeson]

We got a situation where all the informed commentators, us, Frank McDonald, James Wickham and so all agree that the interconnector is essential and should be going ahead before anything else.

So why is it last on the list?

IE don't seem to be in much of a hurry, they did consultation in first week July, no word since, compare that to the RPA. Clearly to us indicates no hurry and going on the past experience its certainly at the DoT level calling the shots.

Its the usual sensational Sunday Indo, but senior IE people still have to answer for misleading the joint committee, they got money to do the Park Tunnel Docklands service and the public left stranded in Heuston have a right to answers

And of course there is more going on in the background

[CSL]

Like I've been thinking for a while, a lot of this is more interesting to look at which dogs are not barking.

The recent Dail statement contained a couple of mentions on the interconnector but interestingly nothing on how and when funding would be thrown in.

[Derek Wheeler]

May I call for some calm please. This was my last gig as spokesperson. I spoke long and hard to the Journalist in question. I have a very deep interest in the PPT. RUI's stance on the interconnector is well documented. This article is open to interpretation, but does not state in any way that we are against the interconnector.

The PPT has once again been put back on the map. Thats the important point. Finally, all articles will always be worked in favour of what an editor wants. We've been here before. I believe that this article was a fair trade off in terms of getting the PPT back in the news.

Mark has outlined that.

Personally, I don't believe the interconnector will be built by 2015 or even close.

Now in relation to my input into the article, let me explain. The point was made that up to 2 billion could be spent on the interconnector, but no money was provided to make the PPT work in the short or long term. A lot of the other stuff was taken from the site. I also and very openly question the very fact that the PPT route is receiving no investment under T21, while it runs through built up areas. If we are serious about getting the city moving, then this asset would be used. There are no more excuses. Interconnector or not the PPT should be used. End of story. Anyone who disagrees with that knows damn all about rail transport.

[ThomasJ]

Quick question, based on the resources that is currently allocated to kildare commuter trains adding twelve minutes each way isn't helping things is it? especially given that some of the trains serving hazelhatch, sallins, newbridge and kildare are locomotive hauled? surely additional carriages are needed for this?

[ACustomer]

I fear the black art of media briefing is at work here. Play up the cost of the Interconnector; dangle the PPT "alternative" (we all know it not really a substitute); try to insinuate that RUI takes this view.

Also throw in remarks like "the cost of major infrastructure projects have a history of spiralling out of control" while failing to mention that this is no longer true for recent road projects and that rail projects have generally been within budget. Clearly designed to scare taxpayers off the Interconnector.

Having said all that, by all means make whatever limited use one can of the PPT, but for heaven's sake don't let it be used as a cop-out on the Interconnector issue.

[eugene]

I agree, we dont want any misrepresentation here. Interconnector first, PPT second. Even at 2 billion euro for the tunnelling its still somewhat cheaper then Metro North. I'm fully in favor of every bit of track being used of course.

[CSL]

Spin Spin Spin I think we can all see that , but who is the puppetmaster and why ? is it to play down Interconnector coz only MetroNorth will get the lolly ?

[Thomas J Stamp]

the point is that the PPT and the Interconnector dont have to be alternatives.

Here's the spin: IE have a temporary station in Docklands. Yet they are against at worst a temporary line to it that will serve thousands of people.

When the DART Underground is up and running all the DARTS from Hazelhatch can use it, all the commuter railcars can go to Heuston or Connolly given that with DART underground there will no longer be a capacity issues (dont forget that DART underground comes in after DASH 2) - it makes perfect sense.

The costs of the PPT to be used in this way are a tiny fraction of the DART underground costs.

As for those costs, have a look at Cross-rail. In the early 90's it was costed as roughly £1 billion sterling. The Tory Government baulked at that. It was costed again in 2002 at over 10 bilion now its £16 bn simply because they waited far too long.

The same will happen again unless DART underground gets going real quick. Members will recall that we realised that unless something was started on it asap the whole project looked finished, lo and behold the same week we had the big announcement. Our realisation was based on some fairly straightforward reverse engineering on the timelines - it had to be announced pretty much that month or it was never going to make it. Since then, it's really slipping.

The DART underground should have been the first project to get going instead of the last. As usual we'll have everything leading into the city and nothing joining it up. Rather like the M50 in a decade or so they will suddenly reaslise they cocked it up, but by then those responsible in the DoT will have moved on and no-one will be accountable.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Mark will be on the Last Word tomorrow to discuss this.

[Mark Gleeson]

Been back and forward and it appears we are on at 6:20 ish tonight

[paddyb180285]

Mark, 6:20 ish tonight? On the radio or what? When I was a kid, I used to pass The Point on a regular basis to go to the UCI cinema long before Dun Laoghaire got the IMC. I used to pass a level crossing wondering what it was used for. This was before I saw Google Maps two or three years ago. To my surprise The Point, Docklands, and Connolly are all connected to the stretch of track which leads to the Phoenix Park Tunnel and on to Heuston Station with all its branches. The Luas link from Heuston to Connolly is being extended to the Docklands Station and then on to the Point. Fair enough, it passes central locations such as Jervis, O'Connell Street, Busaras and Connolly. The pathetic thing is, there is already infrastructure connecting The Point, Docklands and Connolly to Heuston.

[StephenM]

Barry Kenny and Mark are on at the moment. Barry is getting fairly worked up. :D

[Peter FitzPatrick]

Now a rail user lobby group have questioned the vast amount of money which is earmarked for a new tunnel under the city when the old Victorian railway line could be used to service some of the city's most densely populated areas.

"They are wasting an incredible asset and instead ploughing vast sums of money into a new inter-connector tunnel".



This article is open to interpretation, but does not state in any way that we are against the interconnector.


No outright statements alright but the spin put on this by the Sunday Independent is very unfortunate.

Agreed 100% that the Pheonix Park Tunnel should be utilised & IE are increasingly contradicting themselves in their lame attempts to explain why it is not.

God knows where rail transport would be if IE didn't have RUI chomping at their heals, but I have to say that if you achieved nothing else but the construction of the interconnector in a reasonable time frame; this city/country would be substantially in your debt. Put simply, I feel it should be objective number one, even in the face of IE decisions that defy fiscal & practical logic.

Short of an outright recession, there is no reason why the interconnector cannot be funded when we have a surplus of 6.06bn over current spending in a 'bad year' coupled with a GDP to debt ratio of next to nil.

[eugene]

Think we have discussed this a fair bit now. How about writing a letter into the Indo with a clarification of the RUI position?

[Thomas J Stamp]

Think we have discussed this a fair bit now. How about writing a letter into the Indo with a clarification of the RUI position?

Our position is on the website. As ever, our official position on anything is on the website, what appears elsewhere (even on this forum) consists of indvidual opinions.

What is interesting is that BK has pulled yet another rabbit out of the hat for opposing the PPT being used - even on a temp basis.

Step forward the good people of Navan. Yes, you can look forward to trains from Navan going to Docklands, Connolly and Broadstone according to IE in recent times. Now, considering that IE top brass think the people of Kildare are frankly too thick to know that a train to Pearse on a Sunday is different to one to Heuston on a Monday you have to hand it to the teachers in schools in Meath that IE judges them bright enough to not collapse into a heap of jelly when faced with three (count them) possible destinations.

Oh, not to mention the old "It'll take and hour to get from Heuston to Connolly" line fron BK last night. First, its simply not true - for it to take an hour means pulling into one of the internal platforms, unloading, pulling out, switching over onto the correct track and heading off again, with a similar movement into Connolly. We're not advocating that and BK knows it. Second - we're talking about Docklands not Connolly. Third - any proper organisation would be ashamed to admit on air that it could take an hour for them to do that journey, IE seem to wear it as a badge of honour. Odd.

Maybe, understandably, Barry is concerned that the destination displays on trains that sue the tunnell will display somthing like Dundalk, Rosslare or Nenagh.

At the end of the day we are in a unique window of opportunity. The last time there was a similar committment to rail transport was in the 1840's-1890's. After 2020 there is a fair chance that we will never see as much committment in our lifetimes. This is a fairly simple additional project that can be put in place fairly easily - compaired to it's big brother on the southside. IE should seek whatever funding is needed to be included as part of the DART underground package and start it asap.

Its all very well for Barry Kenny to glibly chuck the burden on BAC and Luas ("We'll work in conjuction with them" lol) our figures show an extra 9000 px due to the KRP, a figure that Luas and BAC cannot possibly hope to shift. Diverting two trains to Docklands removes several thousand and is the most positive contribution that IE can make in "working in conjunction" with Luas and BAC. The reality is that this will offer a choice of services to commuters, those who take that choice will increase capacity (Barry's big word last night) on the trains that dont go that route. Consequently, it increases comfort and convience levels for those on all services.

In the coming decade a lot of the remaining impediments to driving into the city may well be gone - Newlands Cross traffic lights, M50 upgrade, outer ring road, outer orbital motorway not to mention Luas lines and Metro. IE need to wake up and smell the coffee. Capacity is a good thing to worry about when there is no realistic alternative. When there is a proper selection of alternatives in place IE may suddenly realise they dont have capacity problems anymore......

[eugene]

Thanks for that, clears things up for me.

[James Shields]

P11/RUI have always pushed for the PPT to be used, because it made sense, and it still does. We later pushed for the Interconnector because it makes sense too. Both are needed, but the Interconnector will take 8+ years to build, si why not use what's available now?

Connolly may be at capacity (although Mark has shown otherwise) but there is an unused platform at Docklands that could be connected to the Drumcondra line by a small piece of trackwork, and could be ready well before the KRP. It would be quite easy to terminate 4 tph there, if there was the will to do so.

[Mark]

The nerve of Kenny calling us schizophrenics! Ha I nearly crashed the car laughing.

[paddyb180285]

Trains could also be sent further afield to Dun Laoghaire or Bray to fill in gaps present in the timetable. From the Phoenix Park Tunnel, they could call at Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Sydney Parade, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey and Bray. Then, these stations would be revisited on the way back to the Phoenix Park Tunnel. This could serve for uping the frequency of trains to Galway or Limerick were higher frequency is needed. Especially Galway with its popular college reputation and lively city. I know Connolly and Pearse are running out of space. However, Grand Canal Dock could be used. If that runs at capacity, use Dun Laoghaire. If that runs at Capacity, use Bray.

[Mark Gleeson]

Connolly is off the agenda and always has been, Docklands is the destination of choice, except on weekends

Line south of Pearse is running at design capacity

[MOH]

The nerve of Kenny calling us schizophrenics! Ha I nearly crashed the car laughing.

Is Barry Kenny real? Or is he just a robot spouting lines fed to him? Does he even listen to what he says?

Assuming that the interconnector will cost as least 1.3 billion, the statement

Connolly station is at full capacity at peak times, and using the park tunnel in this way would not generate any additional commuter capacity in the greater Dublin area. Kildare services could not serve Heuston without an additional platform and track work being provided there, and could not serve docklands without track modifications at a multi-million euro cost."

doesn't really make any sense. Surely additional work at Heuston and Docklands, while being a multi-million cost, wouldn't be a 2000-million cost?

[Mark Gleeson]

Total cost Heuston end

1 crossover = 2 sets of points
1 signal
Re program the Heuston #1 SSI module to note change

For 2 trains an hour each way current platform 10 is fine

About 1.25 million

Total cost Docklands end (assume we get expensive)

1 replace double junction on Maynooth line at West Rd (will be done regardless)
1 crossover = 2 sets of points in the south end of dip
1 set of points at Docklands at platform 1
1 add junction indicator on signal end P1
1 flat crossing with Midland/North Wall line
Buy lump of shed
Re program Docklands SSI module

About 7 million

All in cost of about 8.25 million so lets say 10 million

IE we allocated 60 million for Docklands they spent 36 million

It ain't a perfect solution but its a solution which eases the pressure while the interconnector built and post interconnector could be a useful commuter link for Heuston/Cabra/Liffey Junction Luas/Metro, note North London line extension on London same kind of thing

[CSL]

I hear a clock ticking re destruction of Docklands station in the background .... :( :(

[ThomasJ]

I hear a clock ticking re destruction of Docklands station in the background .... :( :(

Sad but true by the looks of it :( 15 services daily until new timetable down to 12 then and a large gap between a number of services an incredible waste of a station with 2 platforms. :mad:

[Mark Gleeson]

Well even under full planned service Docklands only gets 4 train in and 4 trains out per peak hour. As Tom has pointed out its musical chairs with Navan the ultimate arse coverage routine to suit IE

One platform alone is enough for the Pace service, note Cobh only has one and it does fine, so the second platform is lying idle and all we want is 2 trains an hour which leaves significant spare capacity to allow a margin on the planned 4 trains per hour

Platform in Docklands is perfectly able to take a Mk3 push pull set, the core of the Kildare peak hour service, strangely IE are going to scrap them in 2009 so there are trains to run the service

Its a long time till 2015

IE management should reread there statement on ethics
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/about_us/code_of_ethics.asp

[ThomasJ]

out of interest mark have you seen any reports from IE justifying the reopening of broadstone? any idea what their business case is?

[Mark Gleeson]

I will know more about Broadstone shortly doubt there is a business case for it

[ThomasJ]

Sorry for dragging it a bit off-topic :o the only reason I asked about it was I thought Docklands was for pace and navan and kildare services and when they were mentioning Broadstone in context to navan services, I thought it was not a good move!